The Lemon Fool

Hi,
My manager suggested a job title change which I haven't agreed to but he thinks we did.
HR sent me a new terms letter and have given me one month to respond. But a week into that one month my job title has already changed in the system.
The issue is:
1. It doesn't reflect the vast majority of work I do.
2. The benchmark for the job title is about £20k a year less than my current job title.

Where do I stand legally on this?
Apologies if this is not enough information but happy to answer any questions.
Regards
Mark

If you have one month to respond, then there is no need to panic.

Have a think about how they make the mistake to think that you were happy with the title. Then write to them and explain that you aren't happy. Propose the job title you want, and make the case for that title. Just be aware than many people do more than their job title suggests, but your job title should represent the majority of your role.

At the end of the day, all that matters is money. It's the only way that respect is really measured in business.

tacpot12 wrote:If you have one month to respond, then there is no need to panic.

Have a think about how they make the mistake to think that you were happy with the title. Then write to them and explain that you aren't happy. Propose the job title you want, and make the case for that title. Just be aware than many people do more than their job title suggests, but your job title should represent the majority of your role.

At the end of the day, all that matters is money. It's the only way that respect is really measured in business.

Thank you I agree job titles do not reflect all the work we do. The title is more junior sounding and as I have a manager role plus my day job dealing with the company leaders in some cases the new title does not help when influencing people.plus as I say, should I leave then I'm looking at £20k a year less.

Why are they proposing to change the job title ?

y0rkiebar wrote:Why are they proposing to change the job title ?

Hi,
It's because there's another team with similar job titles and they want to stop others from proposing me to do their work.
Regards
Mark

Matello7777 wrote:

y0rkiebar wrote:Why are they proposing to change the job title ?

Hi,
It's because there's another team with similar job titles and they want to stop others from proposing me to do their work.
Regards
Mark

So that's what 'they' want (not that I understand it ) but what's in it for you?????

Adrian

AJC5001 wrote:

Matello7777 wrote:
Hi,
It's because there's another team with similar job titles and they want to stop others from proposing me to do their work.
Regards
Mark

So that's what 'they' want (not that I understand it ) but what's in it for you?????

Adrian

Nothing as it stands.
It is frustrating when people are proposing I do work that belongs to another team because that team have messed up their resourcing.
So, I am happy for my title to change, however it has to reflect more closely what I do, my seniority and it not be perceived as a demotion. People usually progress from my newly proposed job title to my current job title. So it's a backwards step. Hence the industry average salary being lower.
Even though I have no intentions of leaving, should I do leave the average salary is around £20k per annum less than my current job title. That's an issue should circumstances change and I need/want to leave.
Also when HR are benchmarking salaries for payrises based on job titles, that's also an issue in my current employment.

Regards
Mark

I don't suppose you're in a union? They have legal advice.
Does the company have a legal advice line? Ours do.

ukmtk wrote:I don't suppose you're in a union? They have legal advice.
Does the company have a legal advice line? Ours do.

They don't unfortunately.

Matello7777 wrote:

ukmtk wrote:I don't suppose you're in a union? They have legal advice.
Does the company have a legal advice line? Ours do.

They don't unfortunately.

I got some helpful advice from the ACAS Helpline 0300 123 1100.

IMO the job title should not necessarily be the determining factor when it comes to benchmarking the job across the organisation. It should be the job description that trumps the title.

Have you got a JD that adequately reflects what you do? If not, then can you ask for one / propose one?

Admittedly this doesn't necessarily help when looking for jobs elsewhere, however job titles aren't necessarily standard across different employers.

chas49 wrote:IMO the job title should not necessarily be the determining factor when it comes to benchmarking the job across the organisation. It should be the job description that trumps the title.

Have you got a JD that adequately reflects what you do? If not, then can you ask for one / propose one?

Admittedly this doesn't necessarily help when looking for jobs elsewhere, however job titles aren't necessarily standard across different employers.

Yes I see your point. I don't have a JD for the new role and yes I could propose one.
Issue is the perception internally because I have a role needing to influence senior people. Then if I need to look for work externally I would be concerned that many agents/employers will take one look at the job title and rule me out of any senior positions I apply for without looking at the detail of what I do.

So even if I got a new JD I'm still very uncomfortable with the job title. I just can't get past that, especially as the new job title is one that progresses to my current job title.

Sounds to me like a case for claiming constructive dismissal.

IANAL

TJH

The job title in and of itself is of no relevance to your contract of employment or the work you do. Legally, it's nothing. And I don't believe you could have any claim for constructive dismissal over it.

The issue, as you correctly surmise, if that if in future you receive a reference it will probably list (their opinion of) your job title. Which may diminish your worth.

So negotiate and change it. Job titles ultimately cost the employer nothing. Any employer who would argue about this isn't an employer you want to be working for.

Gryff

Matello7777 wrote:That's an issue should circumstances change and I need/want to leave.

I am not sure that is true. The new employer would hire you into their job title, description and pay scale based on their assessment of your skills and experience through their assessment process. There isn't really much continuity between employers unless you work in a very structured industry like the NHS where you can be a certain grade across a lot of trusts.

Matello7777 wrote:Also when HR are benchmarking salaries for payrises based on job titles, that's also an issue in my current employment.

This is key. There will be a pay scale associated with the job title/grade/description. I would say it is important for you to ask if your pay scale will change with this move. If so, you may be higher up the pay scale compared to peers, which may limit future raises. You may even be off the pay scale. This is a key thing to check.

I'd advise you keep calm, positive and objective in all discussions. Avoid references to unions and arbitration at this point, otherwise you may escalate the situation unnecessarily and that may make things more difficult in the future.

I'd explore:
1) If your pay scale changes
2) What your career path to the next level looks like. The mgmt may feel you are actually doing the same level of job as the other team, so it would be useful to unpack this. If you are not, you can state that. If you are, that is useful calibration for you.

If it is just the title I wouldn't worry about it too much, but the actual grade/pay scale matters more.

Matello7777 wrote:

chas49 wrote:IMO the job title should not necessarily be the determining factor when it comes to benchmarking the job across the organisation. It should be the job description that trumps the title.

Have you got a JD that adequately reflects what you do? If not, then can you ask for one / propose one?

Admittedly this doesn't necessarily help when looking for jobs elsewhere, however job titles aren't necessarily standard across different employers.

Yes I see your point. I don't have a JD for the new role and yes I could propose one.
Issue is the perception internally because I have a role needing to influence senior people. Then if I need to look for work externally I would be concerned that many agents/employers will take one look at the job title and rule me out of any senior positions I apply for without looking at the detail of what I do.

So even if I got a new JD I'm still very uncomfortable with the job title. I just can't get past that, especially as the new job title is one that progresses to my current job title.

Generally job titles are in your employment contract. So your permission to change it would normally be required, which is what they are trying to do. If they are wrong then you need to disabuse them of that notion quite quickly.

They are trying to solve a problem, so there may be a way around it, for example adding "Senior" or "director" (though I don't generally like that in a title unless you actually are a director), or some such.

As to the job title on your CV, why bother? Its not a truth contest, as long as you are not misrepresenting. My own job title, which ironically includes the word "director", although I am not, does not actually describe my job in any meaningful way, so my CV doesn't use it.

DM

Matello7777 wrote:Also when HR are benchmarking salaries for payrises based on job titles, that's also an issue in my current employment.

This is key. There will be a pay scale associated with the job title/grade/description. I would say it is important for you to ask if your pay scale will change with this move. If so, you may be higher up the pay scale compared to peers, which may limit future raises. You may even be off the pay scale. This is a key thing to check.

I'd advise you keep calm, positive and objective in all discussions. Avoid references to unions and arbitration at this point, otherwise you may escalate the situation unnecessarily and that may make things more difficult in the future.

I'd explore:
1) If your pay scale changes
2) What your career path to the next level looks like. The mgmt may feel you are actually doing the same level of job as the other team, so it would be useful to unpack this. If you are not, you can state that. If you are, that is useful calibration for you.

If it is just the title I wouldn't worry about it too much, but the actual grade/pay scale matters more.

Thanks for this.
I did ask whether benchmarking would affect it and I've had no reply but that might be because I asked them to change the job title back.

I'm not the same level job as the other team. I'm "Senior" and none of them are. I have direct report and they don't.

In my job I'm a software engineer - it is for a European company.
The company has a number of titles.
None of them really bothered me.

Originally I was a Software Systems Developer.
Then for years I was a Consultant.
Then I became a Senior Software Engineer.
Now I'm a Lead Software Engineer.

For the Europeans the title matters and is a reflection of seniority/grade.
I wasn't bothered as I think that I am on quite a high salary compared to the others.
Not as high as some youngsters can now earn though!

To be honest I'm not even sure my employment contract specifies what I'm supposed to do!
I think that it just says that I need to support the company in its endeavours.

ukmtk wrote:In my job I'm a software engineer - it is for a European company.
The company has a number of titles.
None of them really bothered me.

Originally I was a Software Systems Developer.
Then for years I was a Consultant.
Then I became a Senior Software Engineer.
Now I'm a Lead Software Engineer.

For the Europeans the title matters and is a reflection of seniority/grade.
I wasn't bothered as I think that I am on quite a high salary compared to the others.
Not as high as some youngsters can now earn though!

To be honest I'm not even sure my employment contract specifies what I'm supposed to do!
I think that it just says that I need to support the company in its endeavours.

I've checked the new JT with several colleagues and they all say it's crap and doesn't reflect my seniority. If they had said it's fine I'd probably accept it but 100% say it's a rubbish JT.
I don't want to antagonise by boss but at the same time I can't accept what appears and will be perceived to be a demotion.

It's good to check with your own colleagues - they'll have a good idea.
I can understand your frustration/annoyance.
It seems bonkers for the company to do something that annoys a senior employee for no good reason besides it being convenient for them.