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Are we doing it right?

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
Lootman
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Re: Are we doing it right?

#25520

Postby Lootman » January 23rd, 2017, 8:55 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:I would add my congratulations on an excellent job. The only downside is that I'm now `wasting' as much time here as I did at TMF!

But I would also agree with the poster who advocated a very light touch from the moderators. In general the tone of discussion here is very civilised, even on the boards where the topics are inherently contentious (though to be honest I rarely visit them, so that's only a fairly superficial impression).

I did suggest early on that a lighter touch than TMF be used here, and wasn't the only one. So far it seems to be the case and TLF is better for it.

I don't visit the "highly contentious" boards either, which I assume are mostly about politics and religion. I suspect a good part of the civility that we both perceive has to do with the relative maturity of the audience - I've no idea of the average age here but I'd guess it's over 50.

Clitheroekid wrote:Of course this may to some extent be because posters know that a mod is ready to pounce, but I'd prefer to think it's because the overall ethos of LF is better than TMF, possibly because it's not a commercial site.

Exactly. I often attempted to fathom the commercial imperative behind TMF's sometimes quirky and idiosyncratic moderation policies and never quite figured it out. They obviously felt that a more puritanical approach would attract the kind of eyeballs that would buy the (mostly dreadful) products and services that TMF sold. But I could never see it.

Clitheroekid wrote:I personally don't think it does any harm if a discussion drifts off topic. It's not as though there are so many posts there that it causes any problems. The discussion thread will soon wither and die anyway, and I really can't see any need for it to be forcibly terminated.

Agreed, and of course TLF has the ability to split a thread into two, which obviates the rather insulting tactic of removing a comment one has put a fair amount of effort into writing, just because it's a little tangential.

Gengulphus
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Re: Are we doing it right?

#25599

Postby Gengulphus » January 24th, 2017, 2:32 am

One thing I think may not be being done right: moderation in cases where the moderators reckon a thread (*) is going too far off-topic. (Note I'm not saying all cases of going off-topic - most cases only involve a minor detour for a post or two and are generally being tolerated. That's a sensible approach and is pretty much what happened on TMF as well - though probably with some exceptions for particular ways of going off-topic that experience told the TMF moderators were likely to 'blow up' if not stopped early.)

What's generally happening is that the moderators are inserting moderator notes saying something along the lines of "This is going off-topic - take it elsewhere". That is little different from an approach the TMF moderators took from time to time - they didn't have moderator notes available, so they would post something similar, sometimes just as a reminder, sometimes as a conditional 'thread stopper' saying to treat the thread as closed unless one had something on-topic to say, sometimes as an unconditional 'thread stopper' saying that the thread was closed. (The TLF equivalent of that last one is locking the thread as well as posting the moderator note.)

What actually happened on TMF was that such moderator posts almost invariably killed the off-topic discussion - which was extremely frustrating when an interesting discussion arose about an off-topic side issue, but understandable because the existing part of the off-topic discussion was stuck on the original board/thread, quite a bit of work to reproduce in a new thread and even if that work was done, the reproduction couldn't really be very good. And the moderator notes on TLF are generally having the same effect as far as I can see, for pretty much the same reasons.

What I think would be better is that as soon as the moderators identify a thread as going too far off-topic, they move some off-topic posts from it into a new thread on whatever the off-topic discussion is about (depending on what it's about, that new thread might or might not be in the same forum as the original one). At least the most recent off-topic post should be moved, and preferably further ones going back as long as they're clearly off-topic, and ideally moderator notes are added to the original thread saying that some posts have been moved out and where they have been moved to, and to the new thread saying where it has come from.

I do realise that this won't be practical in cases where the off-topic material is mixed up with original-discussion material in the same posts - it does depend on there being posts that are entirely or very largely off-topic to move. So there would still be cases that need to either be tolerated or dealt with by a moderator note calling people to order.

I do also realise that it may be impractical because it's too much moderator work - that's why I said "may not be being done right" above rather than "is not being done right". But I think it gives the best hope of allowing both the original discussion and the off-topic discussion to proceed smoothly, so it should be worth it as long as it doesn't involve too much extra work (how much extra work it involves is not something I have a feel for). And I emphasise "as soon as" above because the sooner it's done, the less work it is and the lower the chance of the original discussion being swamped and killed off by the off-topic one.

Of course, ideally posters would stick the off-topic material in new threads to start with, reducing extra moderator work to a minimum. Facilities to make it easier to do so would be useful - e.g. I can imagine a "reply with quote in new topic" facility that started the quote with "<XXX> wrote in <link>" and stuck an "<author> has replied in <link>" note in the original thread. Though it would probably be quite a bit of work, and it would need some careful design to ensure that one didn't get a dozen new threads on the same off-topic diversion!

Finally, I should emphasise that none of this is intended as criticism, just as constructive suggestions that may (or may not) be feasible. TLF is already a very good replacement for TMF, and better than it in a number of ways - thanks!

(*) Using 'thread' to mean a phpBB topic - the wording is liable to become somewhat confusing when 'topic' sometimes means all the posts in a thread and sometimes means what they're supposed to be about! E.g. IMHO phrases like "the thread goes off-topic" and "the thread's topic" read much more easily than "the topic goes off-topic" and "the topic's topic"!

Gengulphus

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Re: Are we doing it right?

#25714

Postby saechunu » January 24th, 2017, 2:50 pm

I'm not sure what the ethos or focus of this discussion forum is so it's not clear to me why someone should come here (instead of elsewhere) in order to ask a certain question or discuss a certain topic.

If (give or take) the Motley Fool had a founding ethos along the lines of taking control and becoming a smarter investor, and Money Saving Expert had one of taking control and becoming a smarter consumer, what is the ethos here?

Without wishing to offend anyone (genuinely), from what I can make out it may be something vaguely along the lines of becoming a smarter older person. I don't mean geriatric, but 2nd half of your life sort of thing, which granted is a very big period. That ethos isn't spelt out anywhere just an impression I've gained from reading topics under discussion, which are often of a generalist nature that you might find being discussed in a decent pub, albeit in greater depth.

Nothing wrong with that of course but it might not be something that draws new people in much, which if that's the case, raises the prospect of stagnation and eventual decline.

The forum's legacy aside, which is principally now only of historical significance, what is the raison d'être from now onwards?

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Re: Are we doing it right?

#25721

Postby stooz » January 24th, 2017, 3:13 pm

Good question!

Lootman
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Re: Are we doing it right?

#25733

Postby Lootman » January 24th, 2017, 3:46 pm

Gengulphus wrote:What I think would be better is that as soon as the moderators identify a thread as going too far off-topic, they move some off-topic posts from it into a new thread on whatever the off-topic discussion is about (depending on what it's about, that new thread might or might not be in the same forum as the original one).

It's not so much "as soon as" a topic meanders "too far" but rather as soon as a topic that has meandered too far is reported.

I suspect what is happening is that Lemons are reporting less topics as off-topic because there is a more liberal approach here towards scope and relevance, and a greater tolerance for tangential discussions as long as they are related and interesting.

I don't expect that moderators read every message during their shift, but rather read what interests them and otherwise rely on reports which, I suspect, are less common than on TMF.

I think you idea has merit in some situations but there have also been topics that had some digressions in them but still read well in their entirety. It's neater to have an entire thread intact unless there is a compelling reason to split it.

melonfool
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Re: Are we doing it right?

#25747

Postby melonfool » January 24th, 2017, 4:32 pm

Lootman wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:What I think would be better is that as soon as the moderators identify a thread as going too far off-topic, they move some off-topic posts from it into a new thread on whatever the off-topic discussion is about (depending on what it's about, that new thread might or might not be in the same forum as the original one).

It's not so much "as soon as" a topic meanders "too far" but rather as soon as a topic that has meandered too far is reported.

I suspect what is happening is that Lemons are reporting less topics as off-topic because there is a more liberal approach here towards scope and relevance, and a greater tolerance for tangential discussions as long as they are related and interesting.

I don't expect that moderators read every message during their shift, but rather read what interests them and otherwise rely on reports which, I suspect, are less common than on TMF.

I think you idea has merit in some situations but there have also been topics that had some digressions in them but still read well in their entirety. It's neater to have an entire thread intact unless there is a compelling reason to split it.


For myself, I tend to respond to a report I see as soon as I see it but obviously am not online all the time (we don't do 'shifts'). I have responded in agreement with most, but not all reports. Some I have said "looks fine, I'll leave it for now, thanks". I don't tend to act on threads I am reading/contributing to *unless* I have had a report.

If I see it but cannot deal with it (using phone etc) then I will put a shout out for another mod or admin to deal with it.

Splitting threads, from the ones I have been involved in, is complicated, in trying to ensure the right ones move and the other do not, and then invariably having to move some back. It takes time which is also an issue as people continue posting on the thread while you're doing it.

I think different approaches are needed on different boards and we have adopted that really. The moderators often have a quick 'sense check' on our own board before we move forward with a decision.

On Mumsnet, a large message board I read from time to time, there is no tolerance at all of anything off-topic and users themselves monitor this by saying 'oh that raises a question about blah, I'll start a new thread on that so we can discuss it' and then they tend to post a link to the first thread in their new thread and say 'this got me thinking about blah' - this works very well I think. I suspect the users here are as bright as the users on Mumsnet so could probably manage that sort of approach - thus reducing the need for as much moderator intervention on 'off-topicness'?

Mel

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Re: Are we doing it right?

#25750

Postby Lootman » January 24th, 2017, 4:43 pm

melonfool wrote: I don't tend to act on threads I am reading/contributing to *unless* I have had a report.

Yes, I think that's an important point. Since the moderators here are also regular contributors, there is a potential conflict of interest if a moderator uses their "special powers" to edit a topic. So in such cases it makes sense for the contributor/moderator to demur until an independent report of a post arrives and/or another moderator intervenes who isn't personally vested in the topic.

For example, I noticed that on the current "Missing Wills" topic there was a lot of good information and lively debate in it, but it also took a couple of detours along the way. As your moderator note stated, you only added a comment when you received a report, and didn't allow your own views to influence moderation.

Is that an official policy or just your own judgement? I hope both.

That's also why every moderator intervention should identify the moderator taking that action, which you did.

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Re: Are we doing it right?

#25775

Postby melonfool » January 24th, 2017, 5:27 pm

Lootman wrote:
melonfool wrote: I don't tend to act on threads I am reading/contributing to *unless* I have had a report.

Yes, I think that's an important point. Since the moderators here are also regular contributors, there is a potential conflict of interest if a moderator uses their "special powers" to edit a topic. So in such cases it makes sense for the contributor/moderator to demur until an independent report of a post arrives and/or another moderator intervenes who isn't personally vested in the topic.

For example, I noticed that on the current "Missing Wills" topic there was a lot of good information and lively debate in it, but it also took a couple of detours along the way. As your moderator note stated, you only added a comment when you received a report, and didn't allow your own views to influence moderation.

Is that an official policy or just your own judgement? I hope both.

That's also why every moderator intervention should identify the moderator taking that action, which you did.


It was my own judgment in that case - but I have raised this issue with the mod group in the past (merely for our consideration, not becuase there was a problem) as I feel it is important and we are all aware of potential for conflict of interest, or perception of same which is as bad.

Of course, we volunteered to mod boards where we felt we 'knew' the ethos, the reason for their existence, the regular users etc. So while that helps, it also brings in bias - we're only human :)

I think, personally, it can be upsetting for an OP, especially on Legal, if their request for support (and even more especially on the topic of wills as there has often been a bereavement) turns into a discussion along the lines of 'but what if I shoot someone' and it does undermine the usefulness of that board.

However, the board itself can support more than the directly practical discussions - just not on the same thread/topic I think.

Mel

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Re: Are we doing it right?

#26453

Postby GJHarney » January 26th, 2017, 7:50 pm

I really like this board, although I tend to lurk more than post. Compared to TMF navigation is so far a lot easier, so while on TMF I tended to just look at the same one or two sections (and focused on IT's) on here I find myself browsing around and reading interesting things that otherwise I wouldn't have noticed before, so it's a thumbs up from me.

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Re: Are we doing it right?

#27733

Postby ten0rman » January 31st, 2017, 10:05 am

I too would like to add my thanks for setting up this board. I don't contribute that much, only when I think my experience might be of use. (Unfortunately, as I get older, it is becoming more obvious that my experience is becoming more and more obsolete.) Having said that, I have learned a lot both by lurking and by asking the odd question.

Once again many thanks.

ten0rman

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Re: Are we doing it right?

#27755

Postby GarraGee » January 31st, 2017, 11:05 am

For various reasons, I haven't visited here as much as with TMF, but that's nothing to do with the change to Lemon Fools, just my personal situation.

I would like to congratulate Clariman and Stooz and, I'm sure, the many others for the great job done at fairly short notice.

Offhand, the only thing I do miss is the recs system, but I understand this is being looked at.

Again, many thanks for a superb job and the time you have spent.

GG


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