Will TLF exhibit the same fair moderation as TMF boards?

[Gilgongo]

I've just posted on TMF's farewell thread about how I think TMF should be congratulated on how long the boards survived without succumbing to the fate of so many other "online communities" that fell apart through the fractious behaviour of their members.

I think this was a great credit to the TMF moderators who have (and I say this as somebody who has had a post removed by them) behaved remarkably fairly over the years to the great benefit of everyone.

I hope that TLF will be able to exert similar control, so that the civil and informative discourse that characterised TMF can be preserved.

G

[Clariman]

Hi Gilgongo

Yes - broadly speaking, that would be the plan

We will do our best. We just need to do some more work to check the technical aspects of the Moderator function in the software and they we'll get that up and running. In the meantime if you report anything, Stooz and I will get to see it.

C

[bionichamster]

It remains to be seen. Personally I think LoST had degenerated significantly in tone in the past year or two, the highly divisive polarisation that has been a recent feature of politics (see EU ref + brexit, Scot indy ref, US election, Labour party internal struggles for examples) runs the risk of making the replacement for LoST here an even less pleasant place to visit. This will make any moderation a potentially busy job, but the situation we find ourself in could see moderators being shown far less respect (essentially they are likely to be coming from the same pool of people as the perps, i.e. we are all TMF refugees), or alternatively may see some of the worst partisan offenders volunteering to be moderators themselves. But hey we have worse things to worry about I guess.... interesting times!

BH

[Lootman]

I hope that TLF will be able to exert similar control, so that the civil and informative discourse that characterised TMF can be preserved.

Reading the long commentary on the "What's New" board of TMF in the week or so since they dropped their bomb, you can read that opinions about their style of moderation were all over the map. There were certainly those who, like you, appreciated the structure that a rather strict form of moderation conferred. At the same time you can read various complaints about it, and the inference that it drove out many of the best posters. And a common lamentation was that the heyday of the TMF boards were 10-15 years ago, and that many of the best contributors departed long ago.

Personally I found their moderation was effective in some areas. There was precious little spam, hate speech or verbal abuse of other participants. And I think most of us would support zero tolerance of such behaviour. At the same time there was always a stream of complaints that the rules were too strict and that the moderation was too petty and literal.

There might have been reasons for that which were very valid for TMF. Their US parent might have imposed a puritan regime on them. Or they may have been trying to micro-manage their corporate image, as any profit-driven business might.

But neither of those factors apply here, so I think we should feel free to develop a more nuanced approach if that has support.

[Clariman]

Well folks, you are just going to have to trust us and trust those who become moderators. My basic outlook on life is to that humanity is at its best when people respect each other and work together. I have a "live and let live" attitude. That means a high degree of freedom - but only to the extent that it doesn't remove the same freedoms for others.

I would also ask people to respect the site and what it stands for. The Fool community could have been lost forever, but the spirit of Fools and the work of Stooz and I have kept it alive. We are doing this in our free time for no financial reward. That means if any board gets out of hand and can not easily be moderated, then we have every right to close it down - and we may have to do so.

We haven't called the debate and discussion boards "polite" for no reason. It should be a clear signal of what the Lemon Fool expects from the discussions there. So please think carefully before entering into unpleasant debates. Live and live, respect for others, polite debate are the key phrases that you should have in your mind. Or play the ball not the man.

All the best.
Clariman

[Itsallaguess]

It remains to be seen. Personally I think LoST had degenerated significantly in tone in the past year or two, the highly divisive polarisation that has been a recent feature of politics (see EU ref + brexit, Scot indy ref, US election, Labour party internal struggles for examples) runs the risk of making the replacement for LoST here an even less pleasant place to visit. This will make any moderation a potentially busy job, but the situation we find ourself in could see moderators being shown far less respect (essentially they are likely to be coming from the same pool of people as the perps, i.e. we are all TMF refugees), or alternatively may see some of the worst partisan offenders volunteering to be moderators themselves. But hey we have worse things to worry about I guess.... interesting times!

BH

Got to be honest and say that whilst having the LoST board on TMF will have clearly tested the mods over there, and would of course give the same problems to anyone willing to mod a similar board over here too (if Clariman and Stooz choose to go down that route), I think one of the huge benefits of a LoST-type board is that it's also then very simple for people, both wider posters and mods themselves, to point to somewhere like a potential LoST-like board, and say 'Get yourself over there if you want to debate that, or debate like-that'.

I think that before dismissing somewhere like LoST, the above needs some careful thought as to the benefit it could bring. Granted, that benefit would bring with it some prices to pay in terms of focussed-moderation, but I personally think that coming up with a good answer to that question regarding good, focussed moderation of a LoST-type board would give better pay-back in terms of the wider board-use than simply dismissing a LoST-type board and then understanding that LoST-type discussions will, I think inevitably, carry on in a much more widespread manner elsewhere on the Lemon boards, and it's at that point that we might see that situation generating much more disruption generally than if a LoST-type board were allowed (and a way was found to moderate it successfully), where those 'types' of discussions could at least carry on in one place.

Simply put, people who didn't want to have LoST-type discussions, either with regards to subject-matter or the manner in which they were debated (that's not to say this couldn't be differently modded on this board, of course..), knew not to visit the LoST board, and it had a 'reputation' for the types of topics discussed and the way in which they were discussed. I actually don't think that's a bad situation to get to, so long as it could be modded in a satisfactory manner, as it then at least 'allows' those discussions and the manner in which people sometimes want to discuss them, to go on in that one 'place'...

Just something to think about, but I don't think it's going to be as simple as thinking we can 'do without' a LoST-type board and by doing so the people wanting to discuss LoST-type discussions, in a manner which they would like to discuss them (not breaking any rules, but in a much more robust way than seen on other boards), will simply accept that they cannot discuss those types of topics, or in a way that they would like to.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Arborbridge]

We all hope the answer is "yes".

I think I achieved my first deletion yesterday - another milestone.

I say "think" because with TMF, one used to have an email notification, but I haven't had one from TLF. Still, whatever, my post disappeared and probably rightly so, being uncomplimentary to the new President elect (though not outlandishly so, I thought).

All the best with the moderation - it is an important feature.


Arb.

[Stonge]

I think moderation here should be very very strictly applied to a well defined set of user guidelines.

Admins and mods should not be expected to police useless boards like LOST.

'Locker room' language and bar-room political opinions have no value.

There is potential to take the best of TMF and lose the worst but only if you start as you mean to go on - and time is passing fast for these decisions to be made. Stooz and Clariman need to show leadership right now and set the ethos and standards for this site to a high level.

[Clariman]

I think moderation here should be very very strictly applied ..... Stooz and Clariman need to show leadership right now and set the ethos and standards for this site to a high level.

I think I set out my ethos pretty clearly in my post above - in terms of broad approach. What isn't clear from that?

We have a board called Polite Debate which says it will be firmly moderated. It is NOT Lost. It is called polite for a reason.

[doug2500]

'Locker room' language and bar-room political opinions have no value.

Unless you find yourself in the running for president of the USA

[88V8]

.....time is passing fast for these decisions to be made. Stooz and Clariman need to show leadership right now and set the ethos and standards for this site to a high level.

Show leadership? You mean like setting up a forum for us just six days ago, in their on time and at their own expense?
Jeeez..........

V8

[Stonge]

Precisely my point.

I am hugely grateful for what they have done.

They created this site so they are in charge and deserve great respect from all of us and to be allowed to create something truly magnificent - not to be enslaved to the memory of the other place.

[Generali]

They created this site so they are in charge and deserve great respect from all of us and to be allowed to create something truly magnificent - not to be enslaved to the memory of the other place.

I think this is a really good point. This site may have risen from the ashes of The Fool but it should be free to become whatever the owners and users want, not be a slave to the past.

[Gengulphus]

They created this site so they are in charge and deserve great respect from all of us and to be allowed to create something truly magnificent - not to be enslaved to the memory of the other place.

Have you considered the possibility that "all of us" might include a lot of people who like "the memory of the other place"?

Or is "all of us" code for "all those who agree with me - everyone else doesn't count"?

No, I don't know the answers to those questions. I know where I stand on "the memory of the other place", but how many agree with me, I don't know...

What I do know is that I won't know the answers to those questions until we have the ability to ask people what they want - and neither will you. And if you pretend that you do know them, I'll know what to think of that...

Gengulphus

[Lootman]

They created this site so they are in charge and deserve great respect from all of us and to be allowed to create something truly magnificent - not to be enslaved to the memory of the other place.

Have you considered the possibility that "all of us" might include a lot of people who like "the memory of the other place"?

It's a reasonable assumption that anyone who has migrated from there to here likes certain aspects of that memory. But it doesn't follow that those who migrated here do not see this new venue as an opportunity to both preserve what was good there and to improve on what didn't work there. And clearly some things did not work there because in a week's time that other place will self-destruct. And various comments "over there" in the last week claim that there had been a decline for a long time.

So if ever there was an opportunity to learn what is worthwhile to preserve and what not, then surely this is it. I do not worry about the good will that created this alternative space so quickly. I do worry that some constituents appear to want to assume that this is a replica rather than an opportunity to grow. And even more that some don't even want to have that discussion.

[Gromley]

I should preface my response here - with my TOTAL ADMIRATION AND GRATITUDE FOR WHAT STOOZ & CLARIMAN HAVE ACHIEVED - however in response to the following :

This site may have risen from the ashes of The Fool but it should be free to become whatever the owners and users want, not be a slave to the past.

With respect I don't think "the owners" opinions should carry more weight than the rest of us; and I think & hope they will agree on this point? But "the users" needs to be the group of likeminded (in some ways at least ) individuals that made TMF what it was and I would certainly trust "the owners" to make that call . [Until such time as I don't ]

[Gengulphus]

With respect I don't think "the owners" opinions should carry more weight than the rest of us; and I think & hope they will agree on this point?

It is an obvious matter of fact that their opinions do carry more weight than those of the rest of us. I think and hope that circumstances in which that greater weight actually matters won't occur - but I'm not going to let that blind me to the fact that the greater weight exists!

Gengulphus

[toofast2live]

TNF moderation was onerous, petty, unreasonable and favoured a "gilded few" who could do no wrong and whose complaints were always acknowledged.

[Clariman]

Hi All

I am please that moderation is an important topic because it most certainly will be put in place, when Stooz has had time to check the forum's moderation capabilities a bit further. In the meantime, there is a "!" on every post which allows it to be reported. Stooz and I will see those and make a call on them.

While we will do our best to be tolerant, I would like to remind everyone that debate here has to be polite and respectful, otherwise you may lose what you have here. A week ago, TMF and its community appeared to be lost forever. Remember that feeling - and appreciate what you have here, despite its imperfections. We do not want people to bring over their historical TMF spats and issues to Lemon Fool. Please leave them at the door when you enter. Bring your lemon-scented room-freshener with you and let's keep it clean and polite. Don't jeopardise the future of boards and discussions here by pushing the boundaries, because Stooz and I do not have the time to argue the niceties of moderation. Thank you.

As I posted earlier in this thread ...

Well folks, you are just going to have to trust us and trust those who become moderators. My basic outlook on life is to that humanity is at its best when people respect each other and work together. I have a "live and let live" attitude. That means a high degree of freedom - but only to the extent that it doesn't remove the same freedoms for others.

I would also ask people to respect the site and what it stands for. The Fool community could have been lost forever, but the spirit of Fools and the work of Stooz and I have kept it alive. We are doing this in our free time for no financial reward. That means if any board gets out of hand and can not easily be moderated, then we have every right to close it down - and we may have to do so.

We haven't called the debate and discussion boards "polite" for no reason. It should be a clear signal of what the Lemon Fool expects from the discussions there. So please think carefully before entering into unpleasant debates. Live and live, respect for others, polite debate are the key phrases that you should have in your mind. Or play the ball not the man.

[Itsallaguess]

Don't jeopardise the future of boards and discussions here by pushing the boundaries, because Stooz and I do not have the time to argue the niceties of moderation. Thank you.

On the subject of moderation Clariman, can I just ask a specific question around user-notification if posts are removed?

I'm not sure how many posts have had to be removed already from LemonFool, but have Stooz and yourself had any thoughts regarding how users will be notified if they have any posts removed?

I think one of the big benefits of TMF moderation, where it had to occur, was that any user who had a post removed received an email on a per-post basis telling them -

a. That they have had a post removed
b. The reason(s) behind the post removal

I think that approach was a good one, as it meant that it removed the need for people to come back and post specifically on the boards as to why they couldn't find their previous posts, and it also let the user know the specific posting-behaviour that had to be moderated, which hopefully led to a bit of lesson-building in terms of coaxing those posters to behave in a manner more suitable to the boards.

I just wondered if you'd had any thoughts around similar policies for the Lemon Fool board, and saw any merit in also taking the above approach with regards to user-notifications?

I personally think the small amount of time spent carrying out this type of notification would be rewarded over the long term with regards to the 'noise' created were these types of notifications not available to the affected users, so whilst it might on the face of it seem like an overhead that you could do without, I think it would be a false-economy over the long-term if a way couldn't be found to implement such an approach, and it would also lose any 'benefit' of trying to educate people into more moderate ways of behaving on the boards.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess