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The State Pension

Including Financial Independence and Retiring Early (FIRE)
Vince56
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Re: The State Pension

#25269

Postby Vince56 » January 22nd, 2017, 10:43 pm

Well, thank goodness for your honesty, Toppers. It has probably saved the country a lot of grief ;)

LadyGagarin
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Re: The State Pension

#25318

Postby LadyGagarin » January 23rd, 2017, 9:35 am

OZYU wrote: An interesting way to put the parable of the talents in a modern setting, not that it needs it much.

Equalising wealth by policy will just create massive unfairness to those of us who have definitely earned the better resources they have through a lifetime of hard graft. I get very fed up to constantly having to contemplate the concept of increasingly forking out for people who are just lazy and careless with the little they have, just like we got fed up in A&E recently waiting for two hours while my wife was bleeding from a nasty fall which eventually needed many stiches, while being surrounded by a whole bunch of young drunks, who most probably are there every week, getting priority.

Ozyu


Ah, the famously misunderstood parable of the talents. Nowhere is it suggested that the third servant was to be blamed for not achieving the same results as the first; his mistake was in squandering what he did have. There is some disagreement as to whether the talents are actually hard cash, or whether they represent other types of gift. But in the treatment of the first two, it's clear that not everyone plays on a level field therefore nobody is judged merely by objective results.

For somebody with a severe disability, just getting up and dressed may use as much of their energy as the morning of someone who runs their own successful business. For a person who went to a failing school and whose peers are largely unemployed, getting a respectable job, any job, may be an achievement. That's not to denigrate those who grafted to get to a position of reasonable success - just pointing out that effort and reward may not always be strictly correlated.

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Re: The State Pension

#25327

Postby mswjr » January 23rd, 2017, 10:10 am

Stonge wrote:TopOnePercent, not everyone has your virtues, which you were lucky enough to be born with.

Have some compassion for those less capable than you.


Why should we show compassion for someone who isn't prepared to work hard?

Equality of Opportunity is something a society should strive to achieve. That includes knocking down every possible impediment for those who suffer crippling medical disabilities for instance. Absolutely no question of that; I would be proud to be part of a society that does that.

Equality of Outcome however, is what snake oil politicians of the Left promise, and where the problems lie.

I was brought up on a council estate, went to state school. Left at 16 along with all my immediate contemporaries. We all got jobs in local factories, but I took the opportunity for day release Tech college, they didn't. I took an opportunity for management exposure, they didn't. I got professional qualifications through spare time study etc. They....you've heard it all before.
By the age of 20, they were still on the shop floor, I wasn't.
At the time, it was discussed a lot. 'Can't be bothered' summed it up. Much rather have yet another night down the pub. But as the results did start showing, so did the envy from some (not all) of them, the unpleasantness, 'it's all so unfair', 'management w****'...you've heard it all before.
And any one of them could have done it. It wasn't rocket science, but it did mean less time in the pub.

Nah, no compassion from me for them. If showing compassion for them is what society demands, you're on your own. Let them fight for a single penny from me.

Stonge
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Re: The State Pension

#25462

Postby Stonge » January 23rd, 2017, 6:59 pm

And when the robots take over your job?

Should we blame you for being slightly below the line and let you starve?

Big changes are coming and they're going to take away livelihoods from all sorts of people who deservedly think they are irreplaceable.

There's too little big picture thinking on this thread.

dspp
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Re: The State Pension

#25470

Postby dspp » January 23rd, 2017, 7:19 pm

Most risk-taking ends in failure. For example that's why VCs assume only 1 in 10 investments will succeed.

That's why evolution has set up most people to not take risks. Yes to work hard within various comfort zones, but not take serious risks. From an evolutionary perspective at organism level risk taking is bad. But at species level it is vital.

So ....... say 90/100 are not risk takers - they'll muddle along most of the time. Then 10/100 are risk takers ........ and 9/10 will fail. And the 1/10 that succeeds will be such a big payoff that the whole of the species / nation / clan / whatever benefits.

So as a society we should be mindful of how to look after the 9/10 that try but fail. Because for many of them it was pure chance as to which way their particular outcome came about. Certainly often no fault of theirs. And all of those 10 need the other 90 to be passive participants. So whilst I appreciate why Maggie railed against society, she did not rail against community. And as a community we should be compassionate. It could indeed be us on the sidewalk one day in some circumstances.

Some of us (including me) grew up on council estates and worked hard (me too). But there are places on this world where growing up poor and working hard will not necessarily lead to riches & success, most especially if you are not intelligent / pretty / born in the UK / whatever. I'm all with you about designing the system to discourage slacking, and believe me I rail against that. But remember to be compassionate.

regards, dspp

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Re: The State Pension

#25480

Postby mswjr » January 23rd, 2017, 8:07 pm

dspp wrote:Most risk-taking ends in failure. For example that's why VCs assume only 1 in 10 investments will succeed.

That's why evolution has set up most people to not take risks. Yes to work hard within various comfort zones, but not take serious risks. From an evolutionary perspective at organism level risk taking is bad. But at species level it is vital.

So ....... say 90/100 are not risk takers - they'll muddle along most of the time. Then 10/100 are risk takers ........ and 9/10 will fail. And the 1/10 that succeeds will be such a big payoff that the whole of the species / nation / clan / whatever benefits.

So as a society we should be mindful of how to look after the 9/10 that try but fail. Because for many of them it was pure chance as to which way their particular outcome came about. Certainly often no fault of theirs. And all of those 10 need the other 90 to be passive participants. So whilst I appreciate why Maggie railed against society, she did not rail against community. And as a community we should be compassionate. It could indeed be us on the sidewalk one day in some circumstances.

Some of us (including me) grew up on council estates and worked hard (me too). But there are places on this world where growing up poor and working hard will not necessarily lead to riches & success, most especially if you are not intelligent / pretty / born in the UK / whatever. I'm all with you about designing the system to discourage slacking, and believe me I rail against that. But remember to be compassionate.

regards, dspp


Qualified agreement with that.

Fundamentally though, so far as tax is concerned, our compassion is delegated to the governing politicians who then discharge their interpretation through policies.
Any large redistributive system, especially if a monopoly (public sector), will be riven with inefficiencies, waste, and with some policies I would fundamentally disagree with in isolation.
I can live with all that, and if it feels as though the prevailing governing instincts are close to mine, then I'm happy enough to contribute.

But, playing the politics of envy, and the deliberate morphing of Equality of Opportunity into Equality of Outcome all wrapped up with indignant shouts of 'unfair' and bashing 'the rich', are game plays from the Left that demean people and disrupt society.
A society where someone like Corbyn can be allowed to believe he can buy votes through redistributing my money, is a society I would find corrupt and valueless.
And the people who would be most hurt would be his voters, the ones who will be further discouraged from getting out and achieving something for themselves.

But still, in the UK, it is put forward as a credible orthodoxy.

Indeed, there he is, only one accident away from power.

TopOnePercent
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Re: The State Pension

#25488

Postby TopOnePercent » January 23rd, 2017, 8:32 pm

Stonge wrote:TopOnePercent, not everyone has your virtues, which you were lucky enough to be born with.

Have some compassion for those less capable than you.


The virtue of realising you have to work hard in life if you want to be successful? Hardly news.
The virtue of realising that working hard in school will, worst case, be a waste of effort for a few years. Best case, be the gateway to my dreams? Hardly news.

I have compassion, which is why I fund things like free education, free healthcare, free housing for those who can't/won't/don't, and free whatever else they need. It's not too much to ask, having funded all of that, for them to mind their own business when it comes to the half of my earnings I get to keep and what I do with them.

All, literally all, those with less have to do is work harder or smarter or longer, and spend less on fake tans, voting on x-factor, and save/invest. Who knows, maybe even improve their own education, because there are more free opportunities to do so now than at any time in history.

If effort is too much to ask, then more than 20% of my earnings is too much to ask.

TopOnePercent
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Re: The State Pension

#25491

Postby TopOnePercent » January 23rd, 2017, 8:38 pm

Stonge wrote:And when the robots take over your job?

Should we blame you for being slightly below the line and let you starve?

Big changes are coming and they're going to take away livelihoods from all sorts of people who deservedly think they are irreplaceable.

There's too little big picture thinking on this thread.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

I make the robots. Unless we crack AI in the next 15-20 and get it commoditised so that it is cheaper than me, then I'll be just peachy thanks.

The cemetery is full of irreplaceable men. If a robot does one day come for my job, good luck to it. I'll simply go and do something further up the value chain.

None of what you've yet said, literally none of it, excuses the current lack of effort, lack of hard work situation that persists right now today, amongst those enviously eyeing up the trappings of success without the toil and labours of it. Want me? Try more.

TopOnePercent
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Re: The State Pension

#25493

Postby TopOnePercent » January 23rd, 2017, 8:40 pm

dspp wrote:Most risk-taking ends in failure. For example that's why VCs assume only 1 in 10 investments will succeed.

That's why evolution has set up most people to not take risks. Yes to work hard within various comfort zones, but not take serious risks. From an evolutionary perspective at organism level risk taking is bad. But at species level it is vital.

So ....... say 90/100 are not risk takers - they'll muddle along most of the time. Then 10/100 are risk takers ........ and 9/10 will fail. And the 1/10 that succeeds will be such a big payoff that the whole of the species / nation / clan / whatever benefits.

So as a society we should be mindful of how to look after the 9/10 that try but fail. Because for many of them it was pure chance as to which way their particular outcome came about. Certainly often no fault of theirs. And all of those 10 need the other 90 to be passive participants. So whilst I appreciate why Maggie railed against society, she did not rail against community. And as a community we should be compassionate. It could indeed be us on the sidewalk one day in some circumstances.

Some of us (including me) grew up on council estates and worked hard (me too). But there are places on this world where growing up poor and working hard will not necessarily lead to riches & success, most especially if you are not intelligent / pretty / born in the UK / whatever. I'm all with you about designing the system to discourage slacking, and believe me I rail against that. But remember to be compassionate.

regards, dspp


Just one obvious problem here. Education and effort are not risks. Starting your own business is a risk. Working for someone else's isn't. My compassion funds the welfare state, but frankly, enough has been more than enough. Redistribution I theft. The state should be a safety net not a way of life.

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Re: The State Pension

#25533

Postby dspp » January 23rd, 2017, 9:02 pm

TopOnePercent wrote:Education and effort are not risks.


Education and effort can be risks. Especially education, less obviously effort.

Studying very hard to be the best buggy whip designer & manufacturer gets you nowhere if somewhere in the world some other person invents an automobile and buggies are out and horseless carriages are in. That world does not care one jot about perfectly educated bugg whip makers or designers. And if you cannot bridge the gulf to become a automobile designer then you are [expletive deleted] out of luck. The more specialised your education the more [expletive deleted] out of luck you are. The harder you have worked, the longer you have put off everything else, the more specialist your PhD in buggy whip design, the harder it is to retool yourself to be - and be hired - as a internal combustion designer.

I suspect I am in general agreement with many of you re UK societal issues, but still not all should be tarred with the feckless brush. I know people who are plain stupid (that's the luck of the birth draw) but honest and grafters - but they'll never retire as millionaires however many toilets they clean and welds they lay down. They still deserve my % going into the pot for the NHS and education and whatever in my opinion. I'll rail with you against feckless wasters, but not against the poor grafters. And in many countries for much of human history being a poor grafter was the only option available.

regards, dspp

( I see I have suffered the arrows of Stooz's censorship robot)

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Re: The State Pension

#25548

Postby AJC5001 » January 23rd, 2017, 9:10 pm

TopOnePercent wrote:If a robot does one day come for my job, good luck to it. I'll simply go and do something further up the value chain.


Which suggests that, when the robots have taken over all the jobs at your level, you will be able to out-compete eveyone else and supplant someone 'further up the value chain'.

If that's the case, you must be currently underachieving. :D

Adrian

TopOnePercent
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Re: The State Pension

#25559

Postby TopOnePercent » January 23rd, 2017, 9:23 pm

dspp wrote:
TopOnePercent wrote:Education and effort are not risks.


Education and effort can be risks. Especially education, less obviously effort.

Studying very hard to be the best buggy whip designer & manufacturer gets you nowhere if somewhere in the world some other person invents an automobile and buggies are out and horseless carriages are in. That world does not care one jot about perfectly educated bugg whip makers or designers. And if you cannot bridge the gulf to become a automobile designer then you are Manure out of luck. The more specialised your education the more Manure out of luck you are. The harder you have worked, the longer you have put off everything else, the more specialist your PhD in buggy whip design, the harder it is to retool yourself to be - and be hired - as a internal combustion designer.


And yet so many of the buggy whip skills you've mastered can be used to create other products in other industries - riding crops, sex toys etc etc. If you are smart enough to earn a PhD, then you've got more than enough smarts to retrain into something else that is more future proofed.

dspp wrote:I suspect I am in general agreement with many of you re UK societal issues, but still not all should be tarred with the feckless brush. I know people who are plain stupid (that's the luck of the birth draw) but honest and grafters - but they'll never retire as millionaires however many toilets they clean and welds they lay down. They still deserve my % going into the pot for the NHS and education and whatever in my opinion. I'll rail with you against feckless wasters, but not against the poor grafters. And in many countries for much of human history being a poor grafter was the only option available.


The reality of the world is this - pretty people get more sex, smart people often earn more money, healthy people live longer, and funny people get more laughs. You can't equalise the outcomes - it's a childish notion begat most often of a lack of life experience. Are we to start mashing the pretty in the face with bricks until they are no longer pretty? Do we hit the smart over the head with a bat until they are no longer smart? Are the funny to have their vocal cords cut such that they cannot crack-wise?

Quite why lefties are so obsessed about other peoples money ahs always been a mystery to me. Redistribution is a polite name for a dishonest concept. Taking what I earned to give it to someone who didn't, whether I agree or not. Are the pretty to be coerced to bed those of us with a face like a well slapped bum, such that we redistribute casual sex? Life is unequal: it always has been, and it always will be; the grown up way to handle that is to accept it and play to your strengths.

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Re: The State Pension

#25566

Postby TopOnePercent » January 23rd, 2017, 9:29 pm

AJC5001 wrote:
TopOnePercent wrote:If a robot does one day come for my job, good luck to it. I'll simply go and do something further up the value chain.


Which suggests that, when the robots have taken over all the jobs at your level, you will be able to out-compete eveyone else and supplant someone 'further up the value chain'.

If that's the case, you must be currently underachieving. :D

Adrian


I'm doing what I wanted to do since I was a child .... and had realised spaceman, fighter pilot, and racing driver couldn't happen (not a scientist, too tall, started racing too late in life, being the respective reasons). I work hard to ensure I get to keep doing it. If, big if, the day comes that I must do something else, then something else will be done. It's not a zero sum game - the value chain expands all the time, so nobody need be supplanted for me to work are another level.
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