The Lemon Fool

An odd one.

My flat development has had some recent car break-ins and unfortunately someone had a fob nicked.

The managing agent has been working through the blocks reprogramming peoples main entrance/internal fobs, but it turns out the ones that have been resident copied at places like Timpsons are still accessing the doors, which has thrown a spanner in the works as the idea was to block every fob that hadn't been reprogrammed to the new codes and force people to get working copies from the agent @£10 a pop.

The agents aren't the brightest, so any thoughts about how to proceed that I can throw their way before they just bury the issue into the increasingly growing 'too hard pile'.

I don't have any technical details on the door entry systems but I know reprograms have happened previously and temporary access pin codes have been implemented on occasion (as well as being issued to the local posties on a more permanent basis).

TIA

When you say "the ones that have been resident copied" do you have an idea of how many?

Is it possible that it's an isolated case of someone somehow obtaining a master fob?

How does a copied fob on "old codes" work with the changed "new codes" ?

y0rkiebar wrote:How does a copied fob on "old codes" work with the changed "new codes" ?

by not removing the old codes from the system properly

For context the agent wants to deter people from copying their own fobs via third parties - you get two per flat for free and then additional ones are supposed to be purchased from the agent after a vetting process to cut down on things like Airbnb partying for the penthouses/triplexes - which has been an issue, voids the buildings insurance and presents security issues ( we had police riot vans out for one party, luckily I was away that weekend...).

Legal action is being taken against leaseholder LL's that persist with short term lets after written warnings have been ignored. External coded entry key safes are being removed, unless arranged with the agent first for good reason i.e refurbs where multiple contractor access is needed with a key safe removal date agreed upfront.

So only original fobs supplied with the flats or by the agent are being reprogrammed.

It's quite possible it's agent incompetence that has caused the issue here, but not having witnessed what they have actually done I can't really know for sure. It wouldn't be the first time...

Infrasonic wrote:An odd one.


The managing agent has been working through the blocks reprogramming peoples main entrance/internal fobs, but it turns out the ones that have been resident copied at places like Timpsons are still accessing the doors,
TIA

Surely this has to be true. Until they reprogramme all the fobs, the old codes have to keep working. Only once they have reprogrammed all the agent supplied fobs can they remove the old codes, and the "Timpsons" fobs will fail.

Copying fobs is relatively easy for some technologies of door entry/access control, less so for others.
It will be system dependent and some systems can be 'upgraded' in terms of how secure the fob/reader technology is.

Factors will include: system type and whether networked or standalone, reader/fob technology and cabling if applicable.
Upgrade path can be as easy as changing readers and fobs, or could mean complete change of system including control equipment.

It's difficult to be specific without system make/model and spec. Also thought might be needed to common areas of a wider development if the same fobs are used throughout.

G.

genou wrote:

Infrasonic wrote:An odd one.


The managing agent has been working through the blocks reprogramming peoples main entrance/internal fobs, but it turns out the ones that have been resident copied at places like Timpsons are still accessing the doors,
TIA

Surely this has to be true. Until they reprogramme all the fobs, the old codes have to keep working. Only once they have reprogrammed all the agent supplied fobs can they remove the old codes, and the "Timpsons" fobs will fail.

Nope.

The idea was to wipe out all unofficial fobs locking people out, but with temporary pin codes available to people who could prove residency via AST/leasehold agreements until they stumped up for official reprogrammed spares from the agent - having been vetted first - at which point the temporary pin codes would have been wiped too, making access via sanctioned fobs the only official way in.

Except it didn't work and the third party fobs still had access...

The managing agent has been working through the blocks reprogramming peoples main entrance/internal fobs, but it turns out the ones that have been resident copied at places like Timpsons are still accessing the doors,


This could be because the copies have never been entered onto the system, they are a copy or clone of an existing fob.

On managed systems, if a blank fob is programmed, it has unique serial/identification that is given it's own slot on the system. A cloned fob is a copy of an existing fob and wont stop working until the original is deleted. Reprogramming is unlikely to work unless original fobs with copies are deleted and replaced with new.

As mentioned, it depends on the system and method of copy/programming.

G.

Update.

The managing agents are going to update the key fob entry system hardware to something more modern and flexible with more settings granularity and everyone will get two new fobs that are much harder to clone (although not impossible I gather...). Proof of leaseholder/tenancy will be required along with photo ID to get the new fobs.

The posties have been told that if they leak their door entry code it will be immediately changed and their bosses will informed of the leak (CCTV can be used to confirm non posties using the code as all the main entrances are covered). No other codes will be used.

Fingers crossed.

Why don't the external doors open automatically (i.e. without using a fob) between the hours of say 7am to 6pm like most blocks of flats do?

CliffEdge wrote:Why don't the external doors open automatically (i.e. without using a fob) between the hours of say 7am to 6pm like most blocks of flats do?

Have you read the whole thread?

CliffEdge wrote:Why don't the external doors open automatically (i.e. without using a fob) between the hours of say 7am to 6pm like most blocks of flats do?

Most blocks don't have that arrangement because it gives "Joe Random Parcel Thief" free run of the communal areas during the hours when most parcels are delivered, and most people are at work.

Infrasonic wrote:For context the agent wants to deter people from copying their own fobs via third parties - you get two per flat for free and then additional ones are supposed to be purchased from the agent
[...]
So only original fobs supplied with the flats or by the agent are being reprogrammed.

It's quite possible it's agent incompetence that has caused the issue here, but not having witnessed what they have actually done I can't really know for sure. It wouldn't be the first time...

Why 'Fobs'?

I've worked in a couple of places where your ID cars has a RFID(?) chip in it. You MUST swipe in AND out. If you didn't it logged it and you got en email reminding you not to 'tailgate' through the doors. Too many offences and the card was locked and you had to make the Walk of Shame to the Security Hut. It also helped security know if buildings were occupied. Cards could be added/removed from the system in a matter of minutes. Bear in mind this was about 30 years ago so not new technology.

Something similar for you would work. If you swiped in but you hadn't swiped out then you could get an alert to your phone - that way you'd get a 'reminder' but also the card owner would be alerted to a potential issue. It could even deny entry until you accepted the alert/replied to the text to 'unlock the card. Obviously there are Data Protection issues, but presumably the current Fob arrangement logs who goes in and out and when? Cloned cards aren't as big an issue either with a "3 strikes" feature.

Paul

pochisoldi wrote:

CliffEdge wrote:Why don't the external doors open automatically (i.e. without using a fob) between the hours of say 7am to 6pm like most blocks of flats do?

Most blocks don't have that arrangement because it gives "Joe Random Parcel Thief" free run of the communal areas during the hours when most parcels are delivered, and most people are at work.

Do they just leave the parcels outside then?

Alright don't bother to answer, I should not have got involved again in posting here on this forum. Just trying to be helpful.

And FYI most flats where I reside do have open hours, otherwise it becomes quite impractical, impractical for multiple delivery bods to all have "fobs".

But don't bother to respond because I won't bite again.

CliffEdge wrote:

pochisoldi wrote:
Most blocks don't have that arrangement because it gives "Joe Random Parcel Thief" free run of the communal areas during the hours when most parcels are delivered, and most people are at work.

Do they just leave the parcels outside then?

Alright don't bother to answer, I should not have got involved again in posting here on this forum. Just trying to be helpful.

And FYI most flats where I reside do have open hours, otherwise it becomes quite impractical, impractical for multiple delivery bods to all have "fobs".

But don't bother to respond because I won't bite again.

Ok