Re: Transition to Electric Car Endeavours
Posted: March 27th, 2024, 11:42 am
This is nice, the top 5 companies at different stages of the battery value chain, courtesy of Benchmark:
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Hallucigenia wrote:odysseus2000 wrote:Many hybrid owners seem to use their cars as a trojan horse to get into cities with out paying pollution charges, rarely if ever bothering to charge them up.
Citation needed.
The two plug-in hybrid owners I know are fairly obsessive about plugging in as it's so much cheaper than petrol.
Hallucigenia wrote:odysseus2000 wrote:Many hybrid owners seem to use their cars as a trojan horse to get into cities with out paying pollution charges, rarely if ever bothering to charge them up.
Citation needed.
The two plug-in hybrid owners I know are fairly obsessive about plugging in as it's so much cheaper than petrol.
kempiejon wrote:Is this right, my chum was saying 6 months ago or so that the expanding zone into his borough would mean he was going to have start paying, he has a hybrid but was thinking about a new car because of this.
Hallucigenia wrote:This is nice, the top 5 companies at different stages of the battery value chain, courtesy of Benchmark:
odysseus2000 wrote:Interesting, but what would be additionally interesting is the average margins for each of the steps in the supply chain. I imagine that only the last stage has anything beyond commodity pricing.
Regards,
Hallucigenia wrote:odysseus2000 wrote:Many hybrid owners seem to use their cars as a trojan horse to get into cities with out paying pollution charges, rarely if ever bothering to charge them up.
Citation needed.
The two plug-in hybrid owners I know are fairly obsessive about plugging in as it's so much cheaper than petrol.
DrFfybes wrote:Hallucigenia wrote:
Citation needed.
The two plug-in hybrid owners I know are fairly obsessive about plugging in as it's so much cheaper than petrol.
It is an oft repeated 'statistic'. I know 3 people with PHEVs, one private owner goes most places of electric, the 2 busieness owners with the Mitsubishi Worriers never plug them in.
https://www.google.com/search?c-b-d&q=h ... et+charged links to an old ICCT report suggesting charging is low at best, but that is mainly USA data.
Other sources refute the claim https://www.fleetevolution.com/are-peop ... ybrid-car/ but all these reports have vested interest.
Of course the manufacturers will have the exact data come service time, but I'm more inclined to believe that those with company cars and company fuel tended to buy them for the tax breaks than the green credentials, those with a mileage allowance of 45p/mile (or whatever it is) will be more likely to run on electric.
Paul
Hallucigenia wrote:odysseus2000 wrote:Many hybrid owners seem to use their cars as a trojan horse to get into cities with out paying pollution charges, rarely if ever bothering to charge them up.
Citation needed.
88V8 wrote:This is oft reported.
Here, for example.
88V8 wrote:There are plenty of people who pretend to care about 'the environment' but don't actually give a damn, and are happy to freeload on the back of govt subsidies.
V8
Hallucigenia wrote:88V8 wrote:This is oft reported.
Here, for example.
California 2022.
It's always going to be a bit different in the US, as their petrol prices are so much lower (current average is $3.53/USgal = 75p/litre). UK petrol prices are double that, but on something like the Octopus EV tariff you're filling up the car at 7.5p/kWh, about the equivalent in energy terms of 68p/litre (or for free on their new V2G tariff). And that's without adjusting for the much greater efficiency of electric motoring.
So behaviour is bound to be different in the US compared to Europe.
Hallucigenia wrote:88V8 wrote:This is oft reported.
Here, for example.
California 2022.
And yet hybrids are still 20% of the new car market in the UK, a touch more than pure EVs, which suggests that they work for a lot more people than just company car drivers claiming subsidies.
DrFfybes wrote:Hallucigenia wrote:
California 2022.
It's always going to be a bit different in the US, as their petrol prices are so much lower (current average is $3.53/USgal = 75p/litre). UK petrol prices are double that, but on something like the Octopus EV tariff you're filling up the car at 7.5p/kWh, about the equivalent in energy terms of 68p/litre (or for free on their new V2G tariff). And that's without adjusting for the much greater efficiency of electric motoring.
So behaviour is bound to be different in the US compared to Europe.
Also their electricity prices vary massively depending upon where you live, and the difference between on/off peak differs massively.
eg offpeak about 1p cheaper on https://www.rockymountainpower.net/savi ... f-day.html whereas in Wyoming the offpeak is 6c compared to 12c peak.
On the very similar looking https://www.pacificpower.net/savings-en ... f-use.html California and Oregon appear to charge twice as much as Washington.
Paul
88V8 wrote:Hallucigenia wrote:California 2022.
And yet hybrids are still 20% of the new car market in the UK, a touch more than pure EVs, which suggests that they work for a lot more people than just company car drivers claiming subsidies.
The couple up the road have a Lexus hybrid, they do charge it, and use it for trips to Switzerland. No range anxiety.
It's been very reliable, in contrast to their Peugeot EV shopping trolley which has been at least three times trailered off to a distant garage for repairs. The last breakdown took so long to fix - waiting for parts, guv - that they went and bought another EV as a stopgap.
So yes, hybrids do work well for some.
It just bugs me that we have the govt - ie, me - subsidising people to buy things in order to save the planet and then the user omitting the saving part.
V8
odysseus2000 wrote:88V8 wrote:The couple up the road have a Lexus hybrid, they do charge it, and use it for trips to Switzerland. No range anxiety.
It's been very reliable, in contrast to their Peugeot EV shopping trolley which has been at least three times trailered off to a distant garage for repairs. The last breakdown took so long to fix - waiting for parts, guv - that they went and bought another EV as a stopgap.
So yes, hybrids do work well for some.
It just bugs me that we have the govt - ie, me - subsidising people to buy things in order to save the planet and then the user omitting the saving part.
V8
The transition from ice to bev was always going to be a lumpy transition, but apart from the odd few refuseniks the future is rapidly moving to electric. During lockdown when many were off the roads the air was so much sweeter. Most of the time I don’t notice the smells from ice engines but during that time when neighbours started their tractor or chain saw I could quickly smell them. Imho the sooner most vehicles are electric the better. I don’t think a child born now should have to breathe all the pollution that we have had inhale.
Regards,
Watis wrote:odysseus2000 wrote:
The transition from ice to bev was always going to be a lumpy transition, but apart from the odd few refuseniks the future is rapidly moving to electric. During lockdown when many were off the roads the air was so much sweeter. Most of the time I don’t notice the smells from ice engines but during that time when neighbours started their tractor or chain saw I could quickly smell them. Imho the sooner most vehicles are electric the better. I don’t think a child born now should have to breathe all the pollution that we have had inhale.
Regards,
I remember the air smelling sweeter during lockdown. too.
But I suspect that catalytic converters made a bigger difference over time. Returning home after a skiing holiday high in the Alps in the 1980's, it took me a week to stop noticing the smell of exhaust fumes at a time when no cars had cats.
Watis
odysseus2000 wrote:DrFfybes wrote:
Also their electricity prices vary massively depending upon where you live, and the difference between on/off peak differs massively.
eg offpeak about 1p cheaper on https://www.rockymountainpower.net/savi ... f-day.html whereas in Wyoming the offpeak is 6c compared to 12c peak.
On the very similar looking https://www.pacificpower.net/savings-en ... f-use.html California and Oregon appear to charge twice as much as Washington.
Paul
There is a big range in the UK for electric prices. I pay about 31p per kWh, but a neighbour up the road pays around 8p with Evo for off peak charging & often drives 200+ miles to visit his daughter in his electric BMW. This does around 2 miles per kWh, so 200 miles is roughly around 100 kWh, or £8. Compared to say a diesel doing 50 mpg, this would cost around £1.50 per gallon, for 200 miles 4x1.50x4.55 = £27.30. He also gets the reductions in benefit in kind tax. A newer diesel might return 100 mpg, putting the cost down to £13.65.
Regards,
Arborbridge wrote:odysseus2000 wrote:
There is a big range in the UK for electric prices. I pay about 31p per kWh, but a neighbour up the road pays around 8p with Evo for off peak charging & often drives 200+ miles to visit his daughter in his electric BMW. This does around 2 miles per kWh, so 200 miles is roughly around 100 kWh, or £8. Compared to say a diesel doing 50 mpg, this would cost around £1.50 per gallon, for 200 miles 4x1.50x4.55 = £27.30. He also gets the reductions in benefit in kind tax. A newer diesel might return 100 mpg, putting the cost down to £13.65.
Regards,
2 miles per KwH - is that true? I don't know much about EVs in general, but that is around half what I achieve with my VW iD3. 2 miles does seem very low from what I read.
Arb.
odysseus2000 wrote:Watis wrote:But I suspect that catalytic converters made a bigger difference over time. Returning home after a skiing holiday high in the Alps in the 1980's, it took me a week to stop noticing the smell of exhaust fumes at a time when no cars had cats.
Yes, I remember when the air was so full of un-burnt hydro carbon that it used to, when walking by a stream of stopped cars with engines running, cut into my throat & assaulted my skin & eyes. More efficient engines with fuel injection used more of the fuel & then as you say cats helped even more.