The Lemon Fool

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This on behalf of a retired lady.

In a nutshell, this lady accepted a quotation for some very minor work at her home from an electrical contractor. The quotation was verbal.

When the lady received the work invoice, she was most disconcerted to see that the invoice was far in excess of the quotation. She telephoned the contractors to query this. I stress query. At no point did the lady give the slightest intimation that she was unwilling to pay. The person at the contractors who took the call told her that someone from the firm would get back to her. This was a couple of weeks ago, today being 14/11/16. The lady duly awaited contact from them.

The contractors never got back to her, but on the 12/11/16, the lady received an envelope containing 3 letters in the morning's mail. These 3 letters were all from a debt collector called Final Demand Ltd of Liverpool. This firm had been instructed by the electrical contractors. Two of these letters were dated 07/11/16 and the third one dated 10/11/16.

The first (07/11/16) was a demand to pay £348.76 (this figure equates to the invoice + debt collector fees) within 7 days.

The second (also 07/11/16) was also a demand to pay within 7 days or dispute the sum within 7 days. This letter referred to previous correspondence. There was no previous correspondence unless you count the one above that came in the same envelope.

The third (10/11/16) referred to previous correspondence, none unless you count the two above. This was a threat to commence insolvency proceedings within 3 days unless full payment was received.

I will be most grateful for advice on how the lady should proceed.

Thanks

Outandup

The first thing to say is that the threat to commence insolvency proceedings is complete rubbish. Insolvency proceedings against an individual are not possible where the debt is for less than £5,000.

Secondly, the debt collectors are not entitled to charge "debt collector fees". Such additional charges can only be made where the customer is a business.

Final Demand Ltd are typical of all too many debt collectors, making threats that can't be followed up. However, such practices are potentially illegal.

My advice would be to write to the debt collectors on the following lines:

Dear Sirs

I acknowledge receipt of your two letters dated 7 November and your letter dated 10 November, all of which were contained in the same envelope, and which arrived on 12 November.

I deny that the debt is owed. I accepted a quote of [£ amount agreed] with [name of electrician] on or about [approximate date of agreement]. I was quite happy to pay that agreed sum, but I did not agree to pay any more than that and I am not prepared to do so.

You have demanded payment of debt collection fees amounting to [£ amount demanded]. You are well aware that you have no legal right to demand such fees.

Furthermore, you have made threats of insolvency proceedings. You are well aware that such proceedings cannot be issued for debts under £5,000.

It is illegal under regulations 5 - 7 inclusive of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 to engage in misleading or aggressive commercial practices, and by making threats such as these that have no justification whatsoever you and your customer are clearly breaking the law.

Such conduct also amounts to harassment under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, giving me a right to sue you and/or your customer for damages.

I am accordingly inclined to report both yourselves and your customer to the Trading Standards Department of my local authority, with a view to their taking enforcement action. However, I really don't have the time to get involved in the formal complaints procedure over such a trivial sum, so providing I receive your written confirmation by 12pm on Friday 18 November that the originally agreed sum of [£ agreed sum] will be accepted I will take no further action.

[Alternatively] However, I really don't have the time to get involved in the formal complaints procedure over such a trivial sum, so providing I receive your written confirmation by 12pm on Friday 18 November that the originally agreed sum of [£ agreed sum] less [£35 or such other sum as you think reasonable] to cover the cost of having to deal with your illegal threats will be accepted I will take no further action.

I have sent a copy of this letter to your customer and I trust that he may think carefully in future before employing such a disreputable firm as yourselves.

Yours etc

At least they can see that you aren't frightened by their blustering, and it may just make both the electrician and the debt collectors think twice before acting like this against other customers - though that's probably wishful thinking.

Have a well deserved rec CK ...

Thanks Clitheroekid

Most informative. Will pass on to lady concerned


Outandup

I cant see how to rec a post on TLF?

Outandup100 wrote:I cant see how to rec a post on TLF?

I think you do it by posting "have a rec!"

"have a rec

Another dodgy debt collector Here is an article I wrote on another one a few months ago: http://debtcamel.co.uk/misleading-debt-recovery/

This one's website says "Licensed by the Office of Fair Trading" which they definitely aren't. The OFT doesn't exist anymore.

The OFT's successor as regulator of debt collectors is the FCA. Final Demand Ltd were authorised by the FCA but this lapsed in 2015. Unfortunately they don't have to be regulated to do this dirty end of the business.

Final Demand Ltd are also not a member of any of the debt collector professional bodies, so you can't complaint to them about this misleading threat to make someone bankrupt.

Sound advice from Clitheroekid.

A rec to CK.

And a big rec to Stooz and Clariman for providing a place where this kind of support can continue to take place.

Hi Manzanilla,

Thanks for your post. I read your debt camel article.

So it looks as if the only body in this case to complain to about the debt collectors now is Trading Standards? Is this correct?

The lady has a mind to pay the contractor's invoice less x amount for having to deal with the debt collector's malpractice, and inform the contractor's of this.

If the contractor's then decide to go to court for the difference, the lady could produce the debt collector's threats for the judge's perusal.

In the meantime she could go ahead with a complaint to Trading Standards.

Would this be advisable

Outandup

The OFT's successor as regulator of debt collectors is the FCA. Final Demand Ltd were authorised by the FCA but this lapsed in 2015. Unfortunately they don't have to be regulated to do this dirty end of the business.

The lady did instigate a complaint with trading standards today.

Trading standards have apparently decided already that FD's website is misleading people into believing that they (FD Ltd) are still members of the FCA http://www.finaldemandltd.com/complaints-procedure.html

Outandup100 wrote:The lady has a mind to pay the contractor's invoice less x amount for having to deal with the debt collector's malpractice, and inform the contractor's of this.

But the first post said the invoice what much more that what she had been quoted... so that should be the basis for paying less.

<i>But the first post said the invoice what much more that what she had been quoted... so that should be the basis for paying less.</i>

The latest position is: The lady received a very intimidating phone call from the contractors and basically felt coerced into paying their invoice. She made an on line payment to them less x amount for the problems caused by the debt collector's illegal threats. She emailed the contractor's, telling them she had done this and told them not to contact her by phone again. The contractors have not responded to the email nor acknowledged her payment.

Following on from the complaint to the FO, the lady received a rather grovelling letter of apology from the debt collectors. In this letter, they apologised for the 3 letters sent out in the same envelope, but they have not touched upon the fees they illegally added on nor the illegal threat to commence insolvency proceedings.

I hope the lady hasn't made a hash of things by making a payment to the contractor?

I wondered if she should respond to the debt collectors and ask them for recompense for their actions?

Shortly before Christmas the lady received another letter from the debt collectors. Once again it was rather grovelling and very apologetic. I believe it was only sent because the FO were now involved. The letter asked for a response within 5 days.
The lady duly responded.

Utter silence since then from both the debt collectors and the contractors (who have not carried out their threat to issue a summons for the sum that the lady deducted from the invoice). Both appear to have gone to ground perhaps in the hope that the lady will just go away.

So your advice definitely appears to have worked, Clitheroekid.

Thank you once again.

Outandup