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White Hydrogen

Green investment room for those with a green conscience or following environmental, social and governance (ESG) principles
tjh290633
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Re: White Hydrogen

#609623

Postby tjh290633 » August 18th, 2023, 9:01 am

ayshfm1 wrote:On the subject of clouds.....

The ocean surface temperature has been rising and we know why.

Ships (used) to burn the worst possible oil, the stuff left after everything useful was extracted. This stuff is horrible and is now largely banned. However what it did do was form clouds behind the ships you can see them from satellite pictures and now we aren't using so much there are less clouds. Clouds reflect sunlight, so now more sunlight gets to the ocean surface and it warms up.

So now we have empirical observations that forming clouds reduces warming that should be no objections to creating a lot more, for example, to restore the ocean clouds previously created, the ships could simply create a seawater mist in their wake. That will make clouds without pumping any crap into the atmosphere.

Seawater is far from pure H2O. I suspect that your seawater mist will introduce a lot of particulate matter, principally sodium chloride but also algae, plankton and heaven knows what into the atmosphere.

TJH

JohnB
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Re: White Hydrogen

#609626

Postby JohnB » August 18th, 2023, 9:08 am

That's the point, water vapour does not form clouds in clean air, it needs nucleation points like bacteria or salt crystals. This has been known since the 1890s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding#History

Sorcery
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Re: White Hydrogen

#611574

Postby Sorcery » August 27th, 2023, 7:16 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Kantwebefriends wrote:"it is used to generate green electricity": it releases water vapour, a far more effective greenhouse gas than CO2.

Burning hydrocarbons releases both CO2 and water.

Water vapour is of course by far the more potent greenhouse gas. But not a problem, because it has a rapid cycle (called weather), and the planet has this big sink called the Oceans with ample capacity to take all mankind will ever produce without a blink (just ask Thor).

Which is also why it's disingenuous for commentators to talk of methane in the same way as CO2.

(I'm sure you knew that already, but I can see your post coming across in at least two potentially-misleading ways)


But not a problem, because it has a rapid cycle (called weather), I believe to be a false statement. Water vapour is always present in the atmosphere, a cycle matters not, it's always there, on a global scale at least. I assume how much, varies. You/we might have heard the expression usually used against models "CO2 is not the control knob on earth's climate". It's true. That's because water vapour is a bigger control knob.

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Re: White Hydrogen

#611576

Postby JohnB » August 27th, 2023, 7:31 pm

No read https://physicsworld.com/a/are-our-wate ... e-climate/

This makes emitted water, at best, a thousand times less effective per kilogram at altering the heat budget of the Earth than emitted carbon dioxide,” write the scientists in Environmental Research Letters (ERL).

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Re: White Hydrogen

#611577

Postby Sorcery » August 27th, 2023, 7:50 pm

JohnB wrote:No read https://physicsworld.com/a/are-our-wate ... e-climate/

This makes emitted water, at best, a thousand times less effective per kilogram at altering the heat budget of the Earth than emitted carbon dioxide,” write the scientists in Environmental Research Letters (ERL).


But ... there is lots and lots of water around, 7/10ths roughly of the Earth is covered in it. Every place on land has a water table underground, everywhere that has plants has a water table that is accessable to the plant and evaporates water.

CO2 is a more powerful greenhouse gas but there is not enough of it to matter, I have heard ratios of 5:1 in favour of water vapour having more effect than CO2.

GrahamPlatt
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Re: White Hydrogen

#611582

Postby GrahamPlatt » August 27th, 2023, 8:46 pm

spasmodicus wrote:The newspaper article seems to suggest that it is somehow a new idea to drill for hydrogen. It’s no surprise that hydrogen effuses from the Earth given that the Universe is alleged to consist of about 73% hydrogen. Soviet geologists long argued that many oil and gas fields were sourced from hydrogen which percolated up from the Earth’s mantle and interacted with organic rich deposits in sedimentary deposits to form oil. The AAPG (American Association of Petroleum Geologists) still considers this a heresy (i.e. the “not invented here” syndrome) and asserts that oil and gas are solely produced by the action of heat and pressure on sedimentary deposits. Some oil and gas fields contain significant amounts of hydrogen and natural gas can also be found in rocks of non-sedimentary origin, which indicates that maybe one should keep an open mind about this. Nevertheless, the gas industry grew to its present size and importance on methane, not hydrogen.

It ain't rocket science, they say, to indicate that something is technologically simple. Proponents of hydrogen technologies, as a solution for greening our energy use, point to its wondrous property viz that burning it just produces water vapour and, they say, it has a high energy density in terms of Joules/kg.

What they do not emphasise are the difficulties in producing and handling the stuff. Theoretically, you could pipe it down the existing network that supplies millions of gas boilers in the UK, tweak the boiler combustion a bit and Bob's yer uncle. However although the chemical energy stored per unit weight of hydrogen (in liquid or gaseous form) is higher than that for methane, the volumetric energy density of hydrogen is significantly lower. This means you have to run the pipe network at a higher pressure to transport the same amount of energy as for methane. This exacerbates the problem that molecules of hydrogen are much smaller than those of methane, or coal gas, so they leak much more readily.

Rocket scientists know all about this. Hydrogen seems like the best chemical fuel for rockets, from the point of view of the specific impulse of a liquid hydrogen/liquid oxygen (hydrolox) rocket being higher than almost any other chemical combination that could safely (that word is relative in this context) be employed. The first (and only) human landing on the Moon in 1969 used a Saturn rocket booster (kerolox i.e. kerosene and liquid oxygen) with a hydrolox (liquid hydrogen and oxygen) second stage. Look what fun they had designing it here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-II

The space Shuttle also used hydrolox for its three RS-25 main engines and because of the very large volume of the liquid hydrogen required, it had to have a huge external fuel tank. Right next to it, two solid fuel boosters were attached and when one of them started leaking high temperature gases which impinged on this tank, it caused the tragic loss of the Challenger shuttle. The tank had to be insulated to slow down the hydrogen boil-off, which would otherwise have caused massive amounts of ice to form on the outside of the tank. Later, a chunk of this insulation broke off on takeoff of the Columbia shuttle, which damaged one wing, causing it to burn up on re-entry.

The inherent problems of handling hydrogen were recognised by Elon Musk when designing his Starship/Super Heavy rocket, with ambitions to create a re-usable rocket which could potentially go to Mars and beyond. Having successfully achieved re-usability (an amazing achievement in itself) with Spacex's Falcon rockets powered by kerolox Merlin engines, he embarked on an engineering project to create the Raptor liquid methane/liquid oxygen (methalox) engine for the Starship programme. Liquid methane has a number of advantages over liquid hydrogen, even though methalox has a lower specific impulse than hydrolox (are you still with me?)
1) It's volumetric energy density is higher, meaning smaller fuel tankage. Hydrogen is hard to handle and it leaks much more readily than methane, due to its smaller molecules.
2) The boiling point of liquid methane is a lot higher that that of liquid hydrogen, reducing the insulation requirements for tankage. It is less prone to boil away on a long duration space flight.
3) Most importantly, there is a chance that methane could be synthesised in situ on Mars, or the Moon, from the carbon dioxide and water which are though to exist there. One can imagine a Martian economy based on a carbon dioxide, oxygen, methane and water cycle, e.g. CO2 and 2xH20 --> CH4 and O2 --> CO2 and 2xH20 which is, after all, roughly how things work on Earth.

Other rocket designers have started to wake up to the advantages of methalox, e.g. European Space agency (Prometheus) etc. etc.

Earth has even better facilities that Mars for an economy based on a Carbon/Hydrogen cycle. In fact our own biological life cycle involves both methane and hydrogen. see these articles about farts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1378885/
https://heatable.co.uk/boiler-advice/fart-powered-homes

It seems that the relative hydrogen and methane contents of your farts depends very much on your diet. So maybe the idea of using a mixture of methane and hydrogen to power our gas boilers is not so silly.

There is already a well established LNG (Liquid Natural Gas) industry on Earth. Typically, LNG is 85 to 95-plus percent methane, along with a few percent ethane, even less propane and butane, and trace amounts of nitrogen. The system is well adapted to transporting 100% methane.

What we really need to learn how to do is to fuse that damn H2 stuff into Helium.
S



While I agree entirely with your last point, I think that methane itself is an inherently poor choice… worse than CO2 in its greenhouse effect.
So might we not consider propane https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-023-01316-6?
Newly developed catalyst that can convert CO2 to propane at scale and with 91% efficiency.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: White Hydrogen

#611593

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 27th, 2023, 9:24 pm

Sorcery wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Burning hydrocarbons releases both CO2 and water.

Water vapour is of course by far the more potent greenhouse gas. But not a problem, because it has a rapid cycle (called weather), and the planet has this big sink called the Oceans with ample capacity to take all mankind will ever produce without a blink (just ask Thor).

Which is also why it's disingenuous for commentators to talk of methane in the same way as CO2.

(I'm sure you knew that already, but I can see your post coming across in at least two potentially-misleading ways)


But not a problem, because it has a rapid cycle (called weather), I believe to be a false statement. Water vapour is always present in the atmosphere, a cycle matters not, it's always there, on a global scale at least. I assume how much, varies. You/we might have heard the expression usually used against models "CO2 is not the control knob on earth's climate". It's true. That's because water vapour is a bigger control knob.


Not true. Water vapour controls weather, which is a complex system of short-term phenomena. That's the crucial point. The effects of water vapour come and go with a natural pattern. Mankind may damage that locally - for example by deforestation - and indeed, desertification due to man's activities goes back to antiquity. But a dustbowl in Oklahoma (to take a famous example) is not in the same league as a buildup of an atmospheric gas that is cumulative and so long-term as to be, to all intents and purposes, perpetual.

What is true is that modern desertification due to mankind's attempts to service unsustainable levels of overpopulation do tend to get confused with climate change due to CO2. Not least when poorer countries want to claim money from richer ones to deal with problems that are usually predominantly home-grown. That's unhelpful, because it muddles and distracts from both real issues.

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Re: White Hydrogen

#611647

Postby Sorcery » August 28th, 2023, 10:26 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:Not true. Water vapour controls weather, which is a complex system of short-term phenomena. That's the crucial point. The effects of water vapour come and go with a natural pattern. Mankind may damage that locally - for example by deforestation - and indeed, desertification due to man's activities goes back to antiquity. But a dustbowl in Oklahoma (to take a famous example) is not in the same league as a buildup of an atmospheric gas that is cumulative and so long-term as to be, to all intents and purposes, perpetual.

What is true is that modern desertification due to mankind's attempts to service unsustainable levels of overpopulation do tend to get confused with climate change due to CO2. Not least when poorer countries want to claim money from richer ones to deal with problems that are usually predominantly home-grown. That's unhelpful, because it muddles and distracts from both real issues.


I am not clear on what you think is not true. Water vapour might control weather but it is a greenhouse gas responsible for around half of the greenhouse effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas
Agreed we are not doing anything to directly increase it as we are with CO2.
The fact that an H20 molecule as water vapour has on average a short residence time doesn't change it's effect, new molecules are added through evaporation as fast as old ones are lost via precipitation.

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Re: White Hydrogen

#615337

Postby funduffer » September 16th, 2023, 4:10 pm

GrahamPlatt wrote:
spasmodicus wrote:The newspaper article seems to suggest that it is somehow a new idea to drill for hydrogen. It’s no surprise that hydrogen effuses from the Earth given that the Universe is alleged to consist of about 73% hydrogen. Soviet geologists long argued that many oil and gas fields were sourced from hydrogen which percolated up from the Earth’s mantle and interacted with organic rich deposits in sedimentary deposits to form oil. The AAPG (American Association of Petroleum Geologists) still considers this a heresy (i.e. the “not invented here” syndrome) and asserts that oil and gas are solely produced by the action of heat and pressure on sedimentary deposits. Some oil and gas fields contain significant amounts of hydrogen and natural gas can also be found in rocks of non-sedimentary origin, which indicates that maybe one should keep an open mind about this. Nevertheless, the gas industry grew to its present size and importance on methane, not hydrogen.

It ain't rocket science, they say, to indicate that something is technologically simple. Proponents of hydrogen technologies, as a solution for greening our energy use, point to its wondrous property viz that burning it just produces water vapour and, they say, it has a high energy density in terms of Joules/kg.

What they do not emphasise are the difficulties in producing and handling the stuff. Theoretically, you could pipe it down the existing network that supplies millions of gas boilers in the UK, tweak the boiler combustion a bit and Bob's yer uncle. However although the chemical energy stored per unit weight of hydrogen (in liquid or gaseous form) is higher than that for methane, the volumetric energy density of hydrogen is significantly lower. This means you have to run the pipe network at a higher pressure to transport the same amount of energy as for methane. This exacerbates the problem that molecules of hydrogen are much smaller than those of methane, or coal gas, so they leak much more readily.

Rocket scientists know all about this. Hydrogen seems like the best chemical fuel for rockets, from the point of view of the specific impulse of a liquid hydrogen/liquid oxygen (hydrolox) rocket being higher than almost any other chemical combination that could safely (that word is relative in this context) be employed. The first (and only) human landing on the Moon in 1969 used a Saturn rocket booster (kerolox i.e. kerosene and liquid oxygen) with a hydrolox (liquid hydrogen and oxygen) second stage. Look what fun they had designing it here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-II

The space Shuttle also used hydrolox for its three RS-25 main engines and because of the very large volume of the liquid hydrogen required, it had to have a huge external fuel tank. Right next to it, two solid fuel boosters were attached and when one of them started leaking high temperature gases which impinged on this tank, it caused the tragic loss of the Challenger shuttle. The tank had to be insulated to slow down the hydrogen boil-off, which would otherwise have caused massive amounts of ice to form on the outside of the tank. Later, a chunk of this insulation broke off on takeoff of the Columbia shuttle, which damaged one wing, causing it to burn up on re-entry.

The inherent problems of handling hydrogen were recognised by Elon Musk when designing his Starship/Super Heavy rocket, with ambitions to create a re-usable rocket which could potentially go to Mars and beyond. Having successfully achieved re-usability (an amazing achievement in itself) with Spacex's Falcon rockets powered by kerolox Merlin engines, he embarked on an engineering project to create the Raptor liquid methane/liquid oxygen (methalox) engine for the Starship programme. Liquid methane has a number of advantages over liquid hydrogen, even though methalox has a lower specific impulse than hydrolox (are you still with me?)
1) It's volumetric energy density is higher, meaning smaller fuel tankage. Hydrogen is hard to handle and it leaks much more readily than methane, due to its smaller molecules.
2) The boiling point of liquid methane is a lot higher that that of liquid hydrogen, reducing the insulation requirements for tankage. It is less prone to boil away on a long duration space flight.
3) Most importantly, there is a chance that methane could be synthesised in situ on Mars, or the Moon, from the carbon dioxide and water which are though to exist there. One can imagine a Martian economy based on a carbon dioxide, oxygen, methane and water cycle, e.g. CO2 and 2xH20 --> CH4 and O2 --> CO2 and 2xH20 which is, after all, roughly how things work on Earth.

Other rocket designers have started to wake up to the advantages of methalox, e.g. European Space agency (Prometheus) etc. etc.

Earth has even better facilities that Mars for an economy based on a Carbon/Hydrogen cycle. In fact our own biological life cycle involves both methane and hydrogen. see these articles about farts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1378885/
https://heatable.co.uk/boiler-advice/fart-powered-homes

It seems that the relative hydrogen and methane contents of your farts depends very much on your diet. So maybe the idea of using a mixture of methane and hydrogen to power our gas boilers is not so silly.

There is already a well established LNG (Liquid Natural Gas) industry on Earth. Typically, LNG is 85 to 95-plus percent methane, along with a few percent ethane, even less propane and butane, and trace amounts of nitrogen. The system is well adapted to transporting 100% methane.

What we really need to learn how to do is to fuse that damn H2 stuff into Helium.
S



While I agree entirely with your last point, I think that methane itself is an inherently poor choice… worse than CO2 in its greenhouse effect.
So might we not consider propane https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-023-01316-6?
Newly developed catalyst that can convert CO2 to propane at scale and with 91% efficiency.


So that would be propalox?

That would be the dogsbolox!

FD

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Re: White Hydrogen

#616631

Postby GrahamPlatt » September 22nd, 2023, 4:34 pm



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