Ireland, more wind energy than demand

[Urbandreamer]

Not sure if this is the right board but I thought the fact worth noting.

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/09/ ... -time-ever

The excess was exported to us.

[Tedx]

I always meant to look at Ireland's wind power generation. I mean it's ideal really. Low population that mostly lives in cities, wide open spaces, generally poor farming land quality (I think?) and right in the path of the North Atlantic prevailing..errr..'breeze'. And I guess most of the wind generation is easier to install onshore installations.

Its the future.

[scotview]

Not sure if this is the right board but I thought the fact worth noting.

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/09/ ... -time-ever

The excess was exported to us.

That's not the issue. How do they power up Ireland when all those wind turbines are static on still, freezing, dark winter days/weeks. Thats the critical generating capacity that really matters.

[doolally]

The excess was exported to us.

As wind or electricity?
doolally

[Urbandreamer]

Not sure if this is the right board but I thought the fact worth noting.

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/09/ ... -time-ever

The excess was exported to us.

That's not the issue. How do they power up Ireland when all those wind turbines are static on still, freezing, dark winter days/weeks. Thats the critical generating capacity that really matters.

I take it that you have researched that or maybe even followed the link?

Personally I would assume that they use gas, but they could use peat to generate their electricity when the wind doesn't blow.
https://irelandenergy2050.ie/past/peat/

BTW, what do you think "the issue" is?

[NotSure]

That's not the issue. How do they power up Ireland when all those wind turbines are static on still, freezing, dark winter days/weeks. Thats the critical generating capacity that really matters.

Same way they used to?

[UncleEbenezer]

That's not the issue. How do they power up Ireland when all those wind turbines are static on still, freezing, dark winter days/weeks. Thats the critical generating capacity that really matters.

Ireland has potential for (reliable) tidal power - though not in such abundance as the UK.

If the world's engineers can solve the problems of harnessing wave energy, I daresay they'll have a whole lot more.

[Hallucigenia]

That's not the issue. How do they power up Ireland when all those wind turbines are static on still, freezing, dark winter days/weeks.

Similar way that the UK will :
https://www.theccc.org.uk/publication/d ... er-system/

At least Ireland doesn't have the problem that the UK has, of unreliable nuclear plants not producing electricity on freezing, dark winter days :

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... lants-halt

[scotview]

BTW, what do you think "the issue" is?

The "issue" is that the green infrastructure, like these Irish wind turbines in the above article, are primarily being put in place to avoid imminent, catastrophic climate change/global warming.

The issue is that the equivalent Wattage rating of generating plant powered by HC will still be required, maintained, renewed as necessary and operated into the distant future.

The issue of continued HC dependency is being conveniently side stepped by the green strategy. If climate change is real, catastrophic and urgent the HC issue would have been addressed by now. My conclusion is that climate change/global warming isn't really as catastrophic or imminent as being made out. There is a lot of virtue signalling going on.

[Urbandreamer]

The issue of continued HC dependency is being conveniently side stepped by the green strategy. If climate change is real, catastrophic and urgent the HC issue would have been addressed by now. My conclusion is that climate change/global warming isn't really as catastrophic or imminent as being made out. There is a lot of virtue signalling going on.

I suggest a bit of research on the subject.

Ignoring for a moment power generation and instead considering the effects of greenhouse gasses, you might be interested in the increase of methane in the atmosphere and the effects that it has.
https://www.iea.org/reports/global-meth ... ate-change

Of course if you do further research then you might find that there ARE steps in place to tackle some of the issues, at least in countries like ours.
https://drawdown.org/solutions/landfill-methane-capture

Returning to power generation, we actually need to dramatically INCREASE the amount that we have if we are to displace HC use. Some minor research will show that there is an intent to address heating homes and transport using electricity instead of HC fuel. Likewise to use it for industrial processes such as steel manufacture.

However changing our entire society might take a bit of time and not be possible overnight. It would certainly seem that some object to such changes.

[scotview]

It would certainly seem that some object to such changes.

Unfair.

[1nvest]

Not sure if this is the right board but I thought the fact worth noting.

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/09/ ... -time-ever

The excess was exported to us.

That's not the issue. How do they power up Ireland when all those wind turbines are static on still, freezing, dark winter days/weeks. Thats the critical generating capacity that really matters.

In Utah (??/America) they've been experimenting with using surplus energy production periods to move heavily loaded trains up inclines, that reverse at times of low wind/high demand. Others pump water into high reservoirs ..etc.

[servodude]

That's not the issue. How do they power up Ireland when all those wind turbines are static on still, freezing, dark winter days/weeks. Thats the critical generating capacity that really matters.

In Utah (??/America) they've been experimenting with using surplus energy production periods to move heavily loaded trains up inclines, that reverse at times of low wind/high demand. Others pump water into high reservoirs ..etc.

In short the answer is storage

There are plently of ways to do it some more proven that others:
- pumped hydro
- gravity
- compressed air
- batteries
- electrolysis
and there will be more coming along

won't stop people whinging and tilting at straw windmills though

[scotia]

In short the answer is storage

Agreed - but

For a number of years SSE have been proposing the largest capacity UK pumped storage system at Coire Glas in the Great Glen, but it never seems to get underway. It would have a capacity of 30GWh. Given that the UK has an average electrical power generation of around 30GW - it will help, but I'm not sure that its the complete solution if our generation is predominantly Wind, and there is a large winter high pressure system over the UK - and very little wind.
As you are probably aware, large battery installations are orders of magnitude smaller in capacity, so are really only suited to ironing out short term transients - e.g. due to a generator failure. I'm not convinced that there are other mature storage solutions.
I'm an oldie, but I find it difficult to believe that a reliable UK electrical power system, based predominantly on Wind Power, can be achieved without a substantial amount of stand-by gas-powered generation.
May you live in interesting times
(PS - it would be interesting to hear how Australia are coping with a move to zero carbon emissions)

[UncleEbenezer]

In short the answer is storage

Agreed - but

For a number of years SSE have been proposing the largest capacity UK pumped storage system at Coire Glas in the Great Glen, but it never seems to get underway. It would have a capacity of 30GWh. Given that the UK has an average electrical power generation of around 30GW - it will help, but I'm not sure that its the complete solution if our generation is predominantly Wind, and there is a large winter high pressure system over the UK - and very little wind.
As you are probably aware, large battery installations are orders of magnitude smaller in capacity, so are really only suited to ironing out short term transients - e.g. due to a generator failure. I'm not convinced that there are other mature storage solutions.
I'm an oldie, but I find it difficult to believe that a reliable UK electrical power system, based predominantly on Wind Power, can be achieved without a substantial amount of stand-by gas-powered generation.
May you live in interesting times
(PS - it would be interesting to hear how Australia are coping with a move to zero carbon emissions)

Tidal energy follows the moon, regardless of the vicissitudes of the weather. The UK has huge potential for that. Distributed around our islands so that all phases of the tide are well-covered at any given time, we'd have the best of both worlds.

[servodude]

(PS - it would be interesting to hear how Australia are coping with a move to zero carbon emissions)

Probably a bit out of scope for this thread - but after a slow start it is gathering pace pretty nicely.
https://www.iea.org/reports/australia-2023/executive-summary

The last election helped clear the boards for a proper, broadly consensus, strategy; mostly by replacing those that sought to frame it as an identity issue on the right of the coalition with independent candidates much more aligned to "just getting on with it" (as well as raising the bar on integrity).

South Australia took a front foot approach a while back https://www.energymining.sa.gov.au/industry/modern-energy/leading-the-green-economy - and last time I heard they hadn't suffered the collapse of civilisation (as much as they had any)
This has helped encourage the other states to try and not look too laggardly

Still interesting times - but it does seem to be going in the right direction at least

[DrFfybes]

Tidal energy follows the moon, regardless of the vicissitudes of the weather. The UK has huge potential for that. Distributed around our islands so that all phases of the tide are well-covered at any given time, we'd have the best of both worlds.

Having been peripherally involved with people trying to get this to work, it is far from as simple as people seem to think. I know individuals who have sunk 7 figure sums of their own company's cash to no avail.

A quick Google for "Is tidal energy viable" will give you plenty of info, from the evangelists who claim it is the solution to all our woes to the environmentalists who claim it will be the end of our aquaeous envirnoment.

Briefly, tides are very strong and far more weather dependant (and therefore unpredictable) than you think, especially in the sorts of narrow channels often considered for these projects for practical reasons (the well documented Severn Bore can vary by an hour due to atmospheric conditions and even stop alltogether if there is upstream rain). This means the engineering challenges are massive, both in design to withstand extreme events, and in construction (you can only build for short periods each day which puts costs up).

And as wind and solar are comparatively cheap and returns well understood, that's where the investment is going. IMO Small Nuclear Reactors are worth pursuing more, we're in the middle of a Govt process to evaluate options with 6 companies shortlisted just this week. I'm guessing Rolls Royce isn't often mentioned on the Green Investing board
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/six- ... ompetition

Paul.

[BullDog]

Tidal energy follows the moon, regardless of the vicissitudes of the weather. The UK has huge potential for that. Distributed around our islands so that all phases of the tide are well-covered at any given time, we'd have the best of both worlds.

Having been peripherally involved with people trying to get this to work, it is far from as simple as people seem to think. I know individuals who have sunk 7 figure sums of their own company's cash to no avail.

A quick Google for "Is tidal energy viable" will give you plenty of info, from the evangelists who claim it is the solution to all our woes to the environmentalists who claim it will be the end of our aquaeous envirnoment.

Briefly, tides are very strong and far more weather dependant (and therefore unpredictable) than you think, especially in the sorts of narrow channels often considered for these projects for practical reasons (the well documented Severn Bore can vary by an hour due to atmospheric conditions and even stop alltogether if there is upstream rain). This means the engineering challenges are massive, both in design to withstand extreme events, and in construction (you can only build for short periods each day which puts costs up).

And as wind and solar are comparatively cheap and returns well understood, that's where the investment is going. IMO Small Nuclear Reactors are worth pursuing more, we're in the middle of a Govt process to evaluate options with 6 companies shortlisted just this week. I'm guessing Rolls Royce isn't often mentioned on the Green Investing board
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/six- ... ompetition

Paul.

Obviously the jury is out on SMRs. I wish RR all the best and I wish the government would cease procrastinating with a silly competition for a contact.

But..... I have worked all my life in large scale energy projects. Some of the largest ever built. And I do not believe that the cast iron rule of economy in scale can be avoided with respect to nuclear power plants. There are very good reasons why plants of all types are built at ever increasing scale. And that includes nuclear power stations. The overhead of building a 500mw or a 5gw nuclear power station is largely fixed. I really dont believe going back over 50 years in scale to what was built in the 60's and 70's will result in significantly less costly generation. Maybe I'm wrong. But my own experience fills me with scepticism on the viability of smaller nuclear power stations.

[Urbandreamer]

And as wind and solar are comparatively cheap and returns well understood, that's where the investment is going. IMO Small Nuclear Reactors are worth pursuing more, we're in the middle of a Govt process to evaluate options with 6 companies shortlisted just this week. I'm guessing Rolls Royce isn't often mentioned on the Green Investing board
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/six- ... ompetition

Paul.

To be fair, I think Nuclear does get mentioned in these circles a fair bit.

Personally I am a bit ambivalent on the subject. My opinions can easily be understood by your statement that the Government is evaluating options. The UK government has a long and distressing history in the area. At best we could say that mistakes were made, at worst lies told to support our weapons program. Still it did provide us with people who had experience with reactor disasters to help after Chernobyl.

If we ignore their involvement, then sure, small modular reactors have a lot of technical advantages.

I believe that some governments own ships that have a SMR. Some people are even looking at commercial shipping.

https://klimavenner.no/norway-takes-swe ... high-seas/

As you say though, wind and solar returns and technology are well understood.

[DrFfybes]

Paul.
Obviously the jury is out on SMRs. I wish RR all the best and I wish the government would cease procrastinating with a silly competition for a contact.

But..... I have worked all my life in large scale energy projects. Some of the largest ever built. And I do not believe that the cast iron rule of economy in scale can be avoided with respect to nuclear power plants.

AIUI the advantage of SMRs is that theoretically ..... they can be built and deployed faster, smaller means more choice of location and fewer installation challenges, they are more flexible in terms of demand response - quicker to shut down and power up, and have a lower frequency of refuelling. Coupled with our distribution network being inadequate for Net Zero, more localised generation would alleviate some of the problems.

There's also the hope that as these don't take a decade or so to get on the ground, the initial costs might actually bear some resemblance to the original predictions. Hinkley C which has gone from an original £18bn to £33bn, and is about 6 years behind the original 6 year schedule, so costs will doubtless rise further. I do wonder why major project like this always go over time and budget considering the amount spent on the fesibility studies. I blame the smoking ban meaning the consultants are working it out on napkins rather than fag packets.

But whether these advantages actually manifest themselves by the time the govt has gone through all the assessment and tendering processes and they get to production stage is another matter. I don't think the issues are technological, but political and regulatory.

Paul