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Bitcoin start-up advice needed

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs
Mike4
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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502103

Postby Mike4 » May 22nd, 2022, 12:03 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
So far in it's 13 year life, there appears to be a correlation between the BTC price and this cycle. Price tends to increase substantially coming up to the halving, presumably as the market remembers just how scarce bitcoins are becoming.


May I ask a question? (I noticed someone else in the thread suggesting people should do their research before posting in this thread but threads like this ARE my research.) Bitcoin may be becoming scarce but what is the force or motivation preventing the Bitcoin project being copied or replicated in every way by someone to compete directly with Bitcoin? Then there would be twice as many available.

I realise this must be a really naïve question but I"ve yet to see it addressed in anything I've read about Bitcoin.

Thanks...


This is really the same question as mine earlier: what does Hornblower see as the distinction between Bitcoin and the others which he says "are scams/have no purpose."

GS


And this question also loops back to the point about whether Bitcoin is a currency or not. Can Bitcoin (or any of the others) work as a currency when at any time, a clone of it can be set up?

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502106

Postby Urbandreamer » May 22nd, 2022, 12:15 pm

Mike4 wrote:May I ask a question? (I noticed someone else in the thread suggesting people should do their research before posting in this thread but threads like this ARE my research.) Bitcoin may be becoming scarce but what is the force or motivation preventing the Bitcoin project being copied or replicated in every way by someone to compete directly with Bitcoin? Then there would be twice as many available.

I realise this must be a really naïve question but I"ve yet to see it addressed in anything I've read about Bitcoin.

Thanks...


Well in theory there is nothing to prevent anyone creating a exact clone copy, and maintaining it so that it continues to be identical. For some reason this hasn't happened.

What has happened is that at least one clone (fork), with slight differences has been created (Bitcoin cash). It's not hugely popular.
Many others have been deliberately created with significant differences. I think that there are supposed to be about 2700 of them.

I understand that it's not that difficult to create such examples, often with some joke behind it, though sometimes with a genuine attempt to offer some advantages. Others look like Ponzi schemes or scams and at least one was in fact NOT created, which was the scam.

Now here is a question, how should we view such radically different things from bitcoin.

Do you know of LETS (Local Exchange Trading Schemes). They predate crypto and are all about encouraging local trade. Why mention them? Well what of MiamiCoin? Would you argue that it relates either to $'s or Bitcoin?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... miamicoin/

I regard these alternatives as distinct and see value in one particular crypto (Bitcoin). I am not saying that in the future I may not view other crypto as having a value, just that I like Bitcoin.

You ask what prevents alternative crypto to the original Bitcoin being created. The answer is nothing PREVENTS this. However there does have to be some advantage in doing so. Not just for the people who create it but for those who want to use/own it.

At this point the answer that some will give is that those creating new crypto are dubious characters and those who buy it are foolish speculators.

It's certainly true that many examples bare little comparison to that of a secretive individual who published an idea, worked at getting it understood and adopted, then vanished without any benefit that could be traced back to identify them.

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502113

Postby martinc » May 22nd, 2022, 12:32 pm

Well in theory there is nothing to prevent anyone creating a exact clone copy, and maintaining it so that it continues to be identical. For some reason this hasn't happened.


Maybe I have misunderstood but isn't the Bitcoin blockchain duplicated for every transaction? That means it has already been cloned millions of times,
because there are so many copies nobody can enter fake transactions because every copy has to agree that it's OK (it's a distributed after all).

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502131

Postby Urbandreamer » May 22nd, 2022, 1:21 pm

martinc wrote:
Well in theory there is nothing to prevent anyone creating a exact clone copy, and maintaining it so that it continues to be identical. For some reason this hasn't happened.


Maybe I have misunderstood but isn't the Bitcoin blockchain duplicated for every transaction? That means it has already been cloned millions of times,
because there are so many copies nobody can enter fake transactions because every copy has to agree that it's OK (it's a distributed after all).


I was interpreting Mike4's question about a competing copy.
viewtopic.php?p=502078#p502078

I had hoped that the example of an identical copy trying to compete might be regarded as obviously ludicrous. The rest of the post tried to point out that differences between different crypto exist and that they are not "all bitcoin".

I know that for many it's a strange concept, but some feel that there should be competition between different available money or currencies. People can then chose the currency that they wish to use or save. A free market in money, radical idea!

I think that on another thread I remarked that people should investigate Heyek's "The Denationalisation of Money".
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/283 ... n-of-money

New alternatives entering the market place should not be considered a problem or something that should be prevented.

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502133

Postby XFool » May 22nd, 2022, 1:40 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:I know that for many it's a strange concept, but some feel that there should be competition between different available money or currencies. People can then chose the currency that they wish to use or save. A free market in money, radical idea!

Some may "feel that", but it sounds a stupid idea to me. The elevation of an ideological notion over practicality and reality (contemporary "capitalism"?) - let's have "competition" everywhere, regardless, because it is an intrinsic "good", no? Competition on which side of the road to drive your car? It must be "good", no? Competition on what mains voltage appliances run on? It must be "good", no? Now - what do I have to pay for this with? I'll just take out one of my 55 debt cards...

Not involved here, however...

Urbandreamer wrote:I think that on another thread I remarked that people should investigate Heyek's "The Denationalisation of Money".
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/283 ... n-of-money

New alternatives entering the market place should not be considered a problem or something that should be prevented.

Must they not? Hmm...

Think I may have my own view on that. Competition of ideas, anyone? :)

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502144

Postby Hornblower » May 22nd, 2022, 2:38 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
So far in it's 13 year life, there appears to be a correlation between the BTC price and this cycle. Price tends to increase substantially coming up to the halving, presumably as the market remembers just how scarce bitcoins are becoming.


May I ask a question? (I noticed someone else in the thread suggesting people should do their research before posting in this thread but threads like this ARE my research.) Bitcoin may be becoming scarce but what is the force or motivation preventing the Bitcoin project being copied or replicated in every way by someone to compete directly with Bitcoin? Then there would be twice as many available.

I realise this must be a really naïve question but I"ve yet to see it addressed in anything I've read about Bitcoin.

Thanks...



The bitcoin software is open source, anyone can copy it & launch their own chain. Many have. Others have modified it slightly & changed parameters...for example, the 10 minute block time, or the total number of tokens that will be mined. Others have 'forked' bitcoin...what this means is BTC holders will now have equal numbers of satoshis on both chains. How this has played out over the past 13 years is, the copies & forks tend to perform very poorly compared to the original. I've received several forked new coins over the years, and immediately sold them to buy more bitcoin. It turned out to be a good decision.

Value is subjective. The market determines that 'bitcoin gold' or 'bitcoin cash' or 'bitcoin SV' etc etc etc aren't the real bitcoin & values them accordingly.

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502147

Postby Hornblower » May 22nd, 2022, 2:48 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
So far in it's 13 year life, there appears to be a correlation between the BTC price and this cycle. Price tends to increase substantially coming up to the halving, presumably as the market remembers just how scarce bitcoins are becoming.


May I ask a question? (I noticed someone else in the thread suggesting people should do their research before posting in this thread but threads like this ARE my research.) Bitcoin may be becoming scarce but what is the force or motivation preventing the Bitcoin project being copied or replicated in every way by someone to compete directly with Bitcoin? Then there would be twice as many available.

I realise this must be a really naïve question but I"ve yet to see it addressed in anything I've read about Bitcoin.

Thanks...


This is really the same question as mine earlier: what does Hornblower see as the distinction between Bitcoin and the others which he says "are scams/have no purpose."

GS



It comes down to bitcoins 'immaculate conception'. The anonymous creator(s) released the software, was active on forums discussing it, was involved with improvement proposals, mined over a million bitcoin (because there was so little competition in the early days), which were worthless at the time. Then at a certain point in the project (shortly after Wikileaks started accepting bitcoin donations after Visa/PayPal et al were pressured to stop working with them) he vanished. No more communications. The bitcoin he mined has also never moved, non of them have been spent.

What this meant was, there was never any 'insiders' that received free tokens.
In contrast most (almost all) altcoin projects have a 'pre-mine'....founders/backers received a substantial windfall of tokens before they were available to be mined, or purchased by retail. Then the projects get pumped (often by bribing 'crypto influencers' on social media with more tokens or fiat currency), then the insiders dump on retail into a rising price.

A couple of years later, the project is moribund, no developers are working on it, the price has collapsed.

You see this story play out again & again & again.

Even Ethereum had a 70% premine given to insiders. They're planning to go 'proof of stake'. If this happens these insiders will have control of the network (it only pretends to be decentralised).

Blockchain is actually only useful in a limited way. As a shared public ledger it works fantastically. For almost every other thing people try & do with them, a database would work far more efficiently.

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502148

Postby Hornblower » May 22nd, 2022, 2:56 pm

Mike4 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
Hornblower wrote:

And this question also loops back to the point about whether Bitcoin is a currency or not. Can Bitcoin (or any of the others) work as a currency when at any time, a clone of it can be set up?



This really asks, do we need an authority (a central bank or state) to tell us what we can deem a 'currency' and what we cannot. Bitcoin aims to separate money & state. We don't trust 'authority', we verify code.

Instead of trust in authority, legitimacy comes from consensus among market participants. It seems a much more 'grown up' system to me.

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502151

Postby Itsallaguess » May 22nd, 2022, 2:59 pm

Hornblower wrote:
The anonymous [Bitcoin] creator(s) released the software, was active on forums discussing it, was involved with improvement proposals, mined over a million bitcoin (because there was so little competition in the early days), which were worthless at the time.

Then at a certain point in the project (shortly after Wikileaks started accepting bitcoin donations after Visa/PayPal et al were pressured to stop working with them) he vanished. No more communications. The bitcoin he mined has also never moved, non of them have been spent.

What this meant was, there was never any 'insiders' that received free tokens.

In contrast most (almost all) altcoin projects have a 'pre-mine'....founders/backers received a substantial windfall of tokens before they were available to be mined, or purchased by retail. Then the projects get pumped (often by bribing 'crypto influencers' on social media with more tokens or fiat currency), then the insiders dump on retail into a rising price.

A couple of years later, the project is moribund, no developers are working on it, the price has collapsed.

You see this story play out again & again & again.


Is there anything actually stopping the original Bitcoin creators eventually dumping those million early-mined Bitcoins onto the market, and thus turning Bitcoin into just another of the 'pump and dump' alternatives you've mentioned above?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502158

Postby ursaminortaur » May 22nd, 2022, 3:45 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
So far in it's 13 year life, there appears to be a correlation between the BTC price and this cycle. Price tends to increase substantially coming up to the halving, presumably as the market remembers just how scarce bitcoins are becoming.


May I ask a question? (I noticed someone else in the thread suggesting people should do their research before posting in this thread but threads like this ARE my research.) Bitcoin may be becoming scarce but what is the force or motivation preventing the Bitcoin project being copied or replicated in every way by someone to compete directly with Bitcoin? Then there would be twice as many available.

I realise this must be a really naïve question but I"ve yet to see it addressed in anything I've read about Bitcoin.

Thanks...


I think the final crunch point for bitcoin will come with the last halving and in the run up to the mining of the last few bitcoins. At that point there will be a great temptation for the miners to just restart with a new bitcoin currency copy which they can start mining again rather than just relying on bitcoin transaction fees.

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502172

Postby GoSeigen » May 22nd, 2022, 5:13 pm

Hornblower wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:This is really the same question as mine earlier: what does Hornblower see as the distinction between Bitcoin and the others which he says "are scams/have no purpose."

GS



It comes down to bitcoins 'immaculate conception'. The anonymous creator(s) released the software, was active on forums discussing it, was involved with improvement proposals, mined over a million bitcoin (because there was so little competition in the early days), which were worthless at the time. Then at a certain point in the project (shortly after Wikileaks started accepting bitcoin donations after Visa/PayPal et al were pressured to stop working with them) he vanished. No more communications. The bitcoin he mined has also never moved, non of them have been spent.

What this meant was, there was never any 'insiders' that received free tokens.
In contrast most (almost all) altcoin projects have a 'pre-mine'....founders/backers received a substantial windfall of tokens before they were available to be mined, or purchased by retail. Then the projects get pumped (often by bribing 'crypto influencers' on social media with more tokens or fiat currency), then the insiders dump on retail into a rising price.

A couple of years later, the project is moribund, no developers are working on it, the price has collapsed.

You see this story play out again & again & again.

Even Ethereum had a 70% premine given to insiders. They're planning to go 'proof of stake'. If this happens these insiders will have control of the network (it only pretends to be decentralised).

Blockchain is actually only useful in a limited way. As a shared public ledger it works fantastically. For almost every other thing people try & do with them, a database would work far more efficiently.


Thanks for your perspective. If I understand you right you are saying that you consider bitcoin the original, untainted project; all other cryptos basically people jumping on the bandwagon, just out to make a quick buck.

GS

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502185

Postby Urbandreamer » May 22nd, 2022, 6:27 pm

GoSeigen wrote:Thanks for your perspective. If I understand you right you are saying that you consider bitcoin the original, untainted project; all other cryptos basically people jumping on the bandwagon, just out to make a quick buck.

GS


I wonder if we need to point out that if you ask the question "This is really the same question as mine earlier: what does Hornblower see as the distinction between Bitcoin and the others which he says "are scams/have no purpose." you might get an answer that fits the question.

I personally don't accept that ALL other crypto meets the description used and it wasn't what you asked as I understand your words that I quoted. You might have used the word ALL if that was what you were asking.

I don't feel the need to use Monero and certainly see no reason to save it. However if you look into it you may question how developers can make a quick buck out of it. Apparently there was no pre-mine of it so it is obviously an exception to those Hornblower faulted (though I don't know his opinions of it).

https://www.monerooutreach.org/quick-facts.html

Does that invalidate what Hornblower has said? I don't think that it does. I don't actually recall him claiming that everything but Bitcoin shared the same faults, just that some does. Isn't that what the phrase "almost all", that he used, means?

Indeed I can only assume that you failed to see that he used that phrase.

Oh you might like this link.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/04/ ... nvestment/
Or this somewhat better article.
https://seekingalpha.com/article/450087 ... ss-for-now

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502201

Postby Hornblower » May 22nd, 2022, 9:30 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
The anonymous [Bitcoin] creator(s) released the software, was active on forums discussing it, was involved with improvement proposals, mined over a million bitcoin (because there was so little competition in the early days), which were worthless at the time.

Then at a certain point in the project (shortly after Wikileaks started accepting bitcoin donations after Visa/PayPal et al were pressured to stop working with them) he vanished. No more communications. The bitcoin he mined has also never moved, non of them have been spent.

What this meant was, there was never any 'insiders' that received free tokens.

In contrast most (almost all) altcoin projects have a 'pre-mine'....founders/backers received a substantial windfall of tokens before they were available to be mined, or purchased by retail. Then the projects get pumped (often by bribing 'crypto influencers' on social media with more tokens or fiat currency), then the insiders dump on retail into a rising price.

A couple of years later, the project is moribund, no developers are working on it, the price has collapsed.

You see this story play out again & again & again.


Is there anything actually stopping the original Bitcoin creators eventually dumping those million early-mined Bitcoins onto the market, and thus turning Bitcoin into just another of the 'pump and dump' alternatives you've mentioned above?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess



Nothing at all. He/she/they haven't been heard of for 10 years. I suspect he might be dead & those bitcoin will never move again.

It would be a very weird thing to do & if a significant number of them suddenly moved to an exchange to be sold (they are being watched), the bitcoin price would go into freefall in anticipation.

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502202

Postby Hornblower » May 22nd, 2022, 9:31 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
So far in it's 13 year life, there appears to be a correlation between the BTC price and this cycle. Price tends to increase substantially coming up to the halving, presumably as the market remembers just how scarce bitcoins are becoming.


May I ask a question? (I noticed someone else in the thread suggesting people should do their research before posting in this thread but threads like this ARE my research.) Bitcoin may be becoming scarce but what is the force or motivation preventing the Bitcoin project being copied or replicated in every way by someone to compete directly with Bitcoin? Then there would be twice as many available.

I realise this must be a really naïve question but I"ve yet to see it addressed in anything I've read about Bitcoin.

Thanks...


I think the final crunch point for bitcoin will come with the last halving and in the run up to the mining of the last few bitcoins. At that point there will be a great temptation for the miners to just restart with a new bitcoin currency copy which they can start mining again rather than just relying on bitcoin transaction fees.


The last Bitcoin will be mined in 2140. Trying to try to predict the actions of miners a hundred years from now seems a fruitless task.

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502205

Postby Hornblower » May 22nd, 2022, 9:36 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:This is really the same question as mine earlier: what does Hornblower see as the distinction between Bitcoin and the others which he says "are scams/have no purpose."

GS



It comes down to bitcoins 'immaculate conception'. The anonymous creator(s) released the software, was active on forums discussing it, was involved with improvement proposals, mined over a million bitcoin (because there was so little competition in the early days), which were worthless at the time. Then at a certain point in the project (shortly after Wikileaks started accepting bitcoin donations after Visa/PayPal et al were pressured to stop working with them) he vanished. No more communications. The bitcoin he mined has also never moved, non of them have been spent.

What this meant was, there was never any 'insiders' that received free tokens.
In contrast most (almost all) altcoin projects have a 'pre-mine'....founders/backers received a substantial windfall of tokens before they were available to be mined, or purchased by retail. Then the projects get pumped (often by bribing 'crypto influencers' on social media with more tokens or fiat currency), then the insiders dump on retail into a rising price.

A couple of years later, the project is moribund, no developers are working on it, the price has collapsed.

You see this story play out again & again & again.

Even Ethereum had a 70% premine given to insiders. They're planning to go 'proof of stake'. If this happens these insiders will have control of the network (it only pretends to be decentralised).

Blockchain is actually only useful in a limited way. As a shared public ledger it works fantastically. For almost every other thing people try & do with them, a database would work far more efficiently.


Thanks for your perspective. If I understand you right you are saying that you consider bitcoin the original, untainted project; all other cryptos basically people jumping on the bandwagon, just out to make a quick buck.

GS



Yes, it was a discovery rather than an invention. Digital scarcity. It can only be discovered once.

There are a very few projects I think have merit. Hive for example, it is a social media infrastructure using a blockchain. I think there's a legitimate use case there...censorship resistance. It's not attempting to be 'better money', it's building uncensorable social media technology. Over the past few years, this need has been made very obvious.

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502208

Postby ursaminortaur » May 22nd, 2022, 9:50 pm

Hornblower wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
So far in it's 13 year life, there appears to be a correlation between the BTC price and this cycle. Price tends to increase substantially coming up to the halving, presumably as the market remembers just how scarce bitcoins are becoming.


May I ask a question? (I noticed someone else in the thread suggesting people should do their research before posting in this thread but threads like this ARE my research.) Bitcoin may be becoming scarce but what is the force or motivation preventing the Bitcoin project being copied or replicated in every way by someone to compete directly with Bitcoin? Then there would be twice as many available.

I realise this must be a really naïve question but I"ve yet to see it addressed in anything I've read about Bitcoin.

Thanks...


I think the final crunch point for bitcoin will come with the last halving and in the run up to the mining of the last few bitcoins. At that point there will be a great temptation for the miners to just restart with a new bitcoin currency copy which they can start mining again rather than just relying on bitcoin transaction fees.


The last Bitcoin will be mined in 2140. Trying to try to predict the actions of miners a hundred years from now seems a fruitless task.


Yes you are correct - for some reason I thought the end date was 2040 rather than 2140. Probably because so much has already been mined.

https://www.businessinsider.in/investment/news/bitcoin-limited-supply-has-driven-up-its-value-nearly-90-percent-has-be/articleshow/85349471.cms

The hard limit of Bitcoin’s supply is set at 21 million coins. Out of this, 18.77 million have already been ‘mined’. That means, 83% of all the Bitcoin that will ever come into existence have already been brought into circulation within 12 years of its creation.

By the early 2030s — a mere decade later — nearly 97% of Bitcoin is expected to be unearthed. The remaining 3% will come into existence over the following century — until 2140.

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502218

Postby Itsallaguess » May 23rd, 2022, 5:45 am

Hornblower wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Is there anything actually stopping the original Bitcoin creators eventually dumping those million early-mined Bitcoins onto the market, and thus turning Bitcoin into just another of the 'pump and dump' alternatives you've mentioned above?


Nothing at all.

He/she/they haven't been heard of for 10 years.

I suspect he might be dead & those Bitcoin will never move again.

It would be a very weird thing to do & if a significant number of them suddenly moved to an exchange to be sold (they are being watched), the Bitcoin price would go into free-fall in anticipation.


Sorry, but I'm not convinced by those initial points, and I think the risk of your later points should not be dismissed so easily.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502228

Postby Hornblower » May 23rd, 2022, 8:41 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Is there anything actually stopping the original Bitcoin creators eventually dumping those million early-mined Bitcoins onto the market, and thus turning Bitcoin into just another of the 'pump and dump' alternatives you've mentioned above?


Nothing at all.

He/she/they haven't been heard of for 10 years.

I suspect he might be dead & those Bitcoin will never move again.

It would be a very weird thing to do & if a significant number of them suddenly moved to an exchange to be sold (they are being watched), the Bitcoin price would go into free-fall in anticipation.


Sorry, but I'm not convinced by those initial points, and I think the risk of your later points should not be dismissed so easily.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess



That's perfectly ok. Meanwhile, the Central Banks will continue debasing their fiat money whilst holding interest rates below inflation.
People buy Bitcoin at the price they deserve.

H

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502230

Postby Hornblower » May 23rd, 2022, 8:45 am

Hornblower wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Hornblower wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Is there anything actually stopping the original Bitcoin creators eventually dumping those million early-mined Bitcoins onto the market, and thus turning Bitcoin into just another of the 'pump and dump' alternatives you've mentioned above?


Nothing at all.

He/she/they haven't been heard of for 10 years.

I suspect he might be dead & those Bitcoin will never move again.

It would be a very weird thing to do & if a significant number of them suddenly moved to an exchange to be sold (they are being watched), the Bitcoin price would go into free-fall in anticipation.


Sorry, but I'm not convinced by those initial points, and I think the risk of your later points should not be dismissed so easily.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


You're talking about the risk of 5% of the total supply...that's never moved in Bitcoin's 13 year history, suddenly being sold. It would not be a catastrophe.

However your opinion is perfectly ok of course. Meanwhile, the Central Banks will continue debasing their fiat money whilst holding interest rates below inflation.

People buy Bitcoin at the price they deserve.

H

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Re: Bitcoin start-up advice needed

#502243

Postby murraypaul » May 23rd, 2022, 9:20 am

Hornblower wrote:Nothing at all. He/she/they haven't been heard of for 10 years. I suspect he might be dead & those bitcoin will never move again.


Craig Wright claims loudly to be the original creator, but few people believe him. (Although he tends to sue people who say that publicly.)

It is likely that the keys to the original mined blocks have been lost, so they are stuck forever. (At the time they weren't worth anything.)


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