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Bitcoin blues

How to buy, profit and invest in crypto currencies or NFTs
UncleEbenezer
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Re: Bitcoin blues

#652087

Postby UncleEbenezer » March 7th, 2024, 5:45 pm

XFool wrote:That said, I am not convinced BitCoin will just disappear. After all, arms smugglers, drug cartels, money launderers, international criminals and Russian sanction busters won't be going anywhere soon, either.

Those are all well-served by the City of London. And nowadays with rivals for some of that business springing up, politicians are particularly keen to keep that business, which is why they have avoided the kind of controls both the EU and US have. Only the "Magnitsky" act, to remind users of those services to pay their donations to the Party.

Urbandreamer
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Re: Bitcoin blues

#652091

Postby Urbandreamer » March 7th, 2024, 6:07 pm

XFool wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:Err no. Currently the supply of Bitcoin IS fixed. If you buy bitcoin, you are not buying Ethereum or WorldCoin. If you buy WorldCoin, you are not buying bitcoin. I have serious difficulty with anyone who doesn't understand that basic fact.

PLEASE explain how creating ScotiaCoin increases the supply of bitcoin!

Sure the "value" of ScotiaCoin may fall quickly to zero as demand for it does. Isn't that how things should be?

Quite - if ScotCoin goes out of fashion, because of EireCoin, IsleOfWightCoin, WelshCoin, WhateverCoin. But isn't that the issue?

How likely is this scenario to happen with say the Dollar, or gold? (I am not a gold bug!)

That said, I am not convinced BitCoin will just disappear. After all, arms smugglers, drug cartels, money launderers, international criminals and Russian sanction busters won't be going anywhere soon, either.


Well it did happen you know.
The German mark suffered hyper inflation and was replaced. The Confederate dollar also went. As did the Franc, the Lera........

Gold? Anyone know what happened under Nixon in 1971? Some even claim that we can trace the distrust in Fiat and the rise of crypto to that point.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ld-in-1971

It was even illegal to own gold at one point in the US.
On April 5, 1933, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed an executive order that essentially criminalized the possession of gold.

https://www.americanbullion.com/is-it-i ... -own-gold/

XFool
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Re: Bitcoin blues

#652098

Postby XFool » March 7th, 2024, 6:24 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
XFool wrote:Quite - if ScotCoin goes out of fashion, because of EireCoin, IsleOfWightCoin, WelshCoin, WhateverCoin. But isn't that the issue?

How likely is this scenario to happen with say the Dollar, or gold? (I am not a gold bug!)

Well it did happen you know.
The German mark suffered hyper inflation and was replaced. The Confederate dollar also went. As did the Franc, the Lera........

Gold? Anyone know what happened under Nixon in 1971? Some even claim that we can trace the distrust in Fiat and the rise of crypto to that point.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ld-in-1971

It was even illegal to own gold at one point in the US.
On April 5, 1933, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed an executive order that essentially criminalized the possession of gold.

https://www.americanbullion.com/is-it-i ... -own-gold/

So nothing is safe? Including BitCoin.

Oh well, back to the drawing board!

Bubblesofearth
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Re: Bitcoin blues

#652190

Postby Bubblesofearth » March 8th, 2024, 6:17 am

So what is the end-game envisaged by Bitcoin enthusiasts? Do they imagine Bitcoin taking over from some/all fiat to become a (or the only) Global currency? If so then what are the implications for things like taxation and debt - will you still be able to get a mortgage if banks cannot create Bitcoin-based money? Do these enthusiasts imagine many more Governments adopting Bitcoin in the way El Salvador has tried to do?

Or is it seen as running in parallel with legal tender in most countries? Is pricing in Bitcoin seen as being more widely adopted? How widely? If it runs in parallel then will it actually be spent given Gresham's law?

Or just as a store of value like gold? In which case where does that value derive from - it can't just be scarcity surely?

The end-game will have implications for the ultimate price Bitcoin is likely to be able to reach.

Just wondering what the vision is.

BoE

Urbandreamer
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Re: Bitcoin blues

#652227

Postby Urbandreamer » March 8th, 2024, 9:05 am

Bubblesofearth wrote:So what is the end-game envisaged by Bitcoin enthusiasts? Do they imagine Bitcoin taking over from some/all fiat to become a (or the only) Global currency? If so then what are the implications for things like taxation and debt - will you still be able to get a mortgage if banks cannot create Bitcoin-based money? Do these enthusiasts imagine many more Governments adopting Bitcoin in the way El Salvador has tried to do?

Or is it seen as running in parallel with legal tender in most countries? Is pricing in Bitcoin seen as being more widely adopted? How widely? If it runs in parallel then will it actually be spent given Gresham's law?

Or just as a store of value like gold? In which case where does that value derive from - it can't just be scarcity surely?

The end-game will have implications for the ultimate price Bitcoin is likely to be able to reach.

Just wondering what the vision is.

BoE


Different bitcoiners have different visions.
There is an FT journalist who claims that you must worship at the feet of the great messiah Satoshi and live off beef, if you join the cult.
The truth is that there are Vegan bitcoiners and carnivore bitcoiners. It's a monetary system, not a cult. Indeed arguments abound within the bitcoin community and there are no ministers or priests to make pronouncements.

Some do actually see it replacing poorly performing fiat. These are the ones responsible for the claims of a price of $1mill or more per bitcoin, as that would be a direct translation of the assumption.
Others see at as competing as a means of money transmission and doing transactions.
Yet more see it as providing what is effectively banking services to the unbanked. Saving cash under the mattress is a bit old school.
Then there are those that see it as a store of value, which would give a different high price as we might then use the price of gold and market cap to predict the price. The bitcoin jargon for Gresham's law is Hodl (Hold On for Dear Life, you'll need to pry BTC from my cold dead hands).
Some see it as allowing people to flee repressive regimes taking savings with them.

Will debt and mortgages still be available/offered? Well there is a demand/requirement so I would expect so. You can use BTC as collateral against a fiat loan currently. Arguably in a pure BTC system, you couldn't have fractional reserve lending, but a pure BTC system doesn't scale to even a small country. Hence I can see fractional reserve banking happening.

I'm just one person and think that the "end game" is likely to be of a synthesis of the available options.
I buy BTC as a store of value, but feel that spending it IS important to it's price. Hence I do spend it.
This month I bought some clothes and some computer parts using some of my BTC.
Before the end of 2024 I intend to replace my phone using BTC. I will buy that BTC in the next 30 days for CGT reasons.
Now that I have software to track my BTC CGT and the CGT allowance is as low as it now is, I may buy BTC less often in larger amounts, but spend it more often too.

avconway
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Re: Bitcoin blues

#653546

Postby avconway » March 14th, 2024, 3:58 pm

Bubblesofearth wrote:Or just as a store of value like gold? In which case where does that value derive from - it can't just be scarcity surely?
BoE


Sure it can. Scarcity. Just like gold. What else?

avconway

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Re: Bitcoin blues

#653556

Postby Lootman » March 14th, 2024, 4:23 pm

avconway wrote:
Bubblesofearth wrote:Or just as a store of value like gold? In which case where does that value derive from - it can't just be scarcity surely?

Sure it can. Scarcity. Just like gold. What else?

Plus the fact that supply is finite and so cannot be manipulated by governments.

In a sense both gold and bitcoin are perfectly pure investments because there is no way to objectively value them. It is a matter of trying to correctly predict the demand for such assets from others.

Tedx
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Re: Bitcoin blues

#653565

Postby Tedx » March 14th, 2024, 4:49 pm

So with Bitcoin is it still totally anonymous?

I briefly read the CGT Bitcoin thread and wondered this.

Urbandreamer
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Re: Bitcoin blues

#653576

Postby Urbandreamer » March 14th, 2024, 5:22 pm

Tedx wrote:So with Bitcoin is it still totally anonymous?

I briefly read the CGT Bitcoin thread and wondered this.


Bitcoin was NEVER anonymous.
It is what is called psudo-anonymous, which is far from the same thing.
https://buybitcoinworldwide.com/anonymity/

If I buy bitcoin from an exchange complying with UK law, the tax man will be able to track my transactions.

Trying to be anonymous with bitcoin is a nightmare, and I advise against putting the effort in.
Should you wish anonymity, use a different crypto.

However briefly, if you want privacy with BTC, you need a method of obtaining the BTC without linking it to your identity. The only certain way is to mine it yourself. You must then never put it into a wallet that has had BTC from any identified source. Finally, when you spend it you must ensure that you NEVER provide any linkage to your identity, or your entire wad becomes known about.

Basically the entire concept of how bitcoin works is that any chunk of bitcoin that you spend or receive is publicly identified with your cryptographic key. If that key is linked to your identity, I.E by withdrawing it from your coinbase account, you are known to own that key.

Sure, mixers like whirlpool or wasabi can make it more difficult to track, but they don't mean that you can't be investigated by HMRC.

Tedx
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Re: Bitcoin blues

#653592

Postby Tedx » March 14th, 2024, 6:16 pm

Thanks.

So what about sending money internationally?

It can be difficult and expensive to send large sums of government currency over borders, or even getting anything of significant value. I'd imagine Bitcoin is more straightforward?

I still don't think I'd ever buy a crypto currency btw, but if I did, Bitcoin would be the only one I'd ever consider

Sorry if this is basic stuff.

Urbandreamer
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Re: Bitcoin blues

#653616

Postby Urbandreamer » March 14th, 2024, 7:09 pm

Tedx wrote:Thanks.

So what about sending money internationally?

It can be difficult and expensive to send large sums of government currency over borders, or even getting anything of significant value. I'd imagine Bitcoin is more straightforward?

I still don't think I'd ever buy a crypto currency btw, but if I did, Bitcoin would be the only one I'd ever consider

Sorry if this is basic stuff.


Basically bitcoin knows nothing about geography. If you have the "address" or public key of a wallet, you simply use your private key to mark that XYZ bitcoin now belongs to that address. At the other end, they can spend it the same way*.

This is how "on-chain" bitcoin works. Lightning would be the more normal way to pay for coffee, and I'm not sure about it's internals, but it starts out and ends as bitcoin. However at the end of the day, you simply need a number to transfer ownership of bitcoin. This number is normally displayed as a QR code for ease of machine interchange.

You might find this video of interest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwcYCxUv-74
At about 16:30 Peter McCormak shows a group who privately light the streets how bitcoin works and publishes their lightning address on X (Twitter). International donations start arriving almost instantly.

*The concepts are a bit different from what you are use to. We are use to everything, with the exception of physical tokens being custodial. In that world either tokens (pound notes) are physically exchanged or "money" is exchanged between custodians. Bitcoin only exists on the ledger or block chain and each lump has a owner associated with it. A transaction consists of updating THE ledger to show that the lump (part of it or a collection of lumps) has a different owner. The bitcoin in fact never moves.


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