And people wonder why banks ask questions...

[AF62]

You do not have to do that. Here is one possible mechanism. You kick the process off by clicking a box in your main bank account. That results in an entry on the database with a unique primary key plus the identity details that your bank holds.

You (or an imposter) sets up another bank account with the same details as yours. You bank sends you an alert asking you whether you opened that account. If you click the "yes" button, your bank knows that the account is yours, and the other bank is informed too. If you click "no", there is potential identity fraud, and the conflict has to be resolved.

So in my example of Jim Smith at 33 Acacia Avenue the father and Jim Smith at 33 Acacia Avenue the son there would be a potential fraud report.

And who (and how) do they sort that out. Start demanding people come into the bank with multiple forms of ID to prove there isn’t a fraud?

That will go down even worse than the ID card solution.

[XFool]

It is pretty clear that banks do not have a way of identifying own accounts. A database of account ownership should do it.

For that to work you would need a national government database of every individual with a unique reference number, otherwise the banks would be guessing that this account belonging to Jim Smith at 33 Acacia Avenue was also the same Jim Smith at 33 Acacia Avenue that was his son.

And a national government database of every individual with a unique reference number would mean that everyone would be sent a document with that unique reference number on it, which equals an identity card.

That went down well the last time it was suggested.

But don't we already have this? NI number, not infrequently asked for by banks.

[Lootman]

For that to work you would need a national government database of every individual with a unique reference number, otherwise the banks would be guessing that this account belonging to Jim Smith at 33 Acacia Avenue was also the same Jim Smith at 33 Acacia Avenue that was his son.

And a national government database of every individual with a unique reference number would mean that everyone would be sent a document with that unique reference number on it, which equals an identity card.

That went down well the last time it was suggested.

But don't we already have this? NI number, not infrequently asked for by banks.

As noted above, not everyone has a NINO. So we are a long way off the American practice of using a social security number as a universal identifier.

[GeoffF100]

For that to work you would need a national government database of every individual with a unique reference number, otherwise the banks would be guessing that this account belonging to Jim Smith at 33 Acacia Avenue was also the same Jim Smith at 33 Acacia Avenue that was his son.

And a national government database of every individual with a unique reference number would mean that everyone would be sent a document with that unique reference number on it, which equals an identity card.

That went down well the last time it was suggested.

But don't we already have this? NI number, not infrequently asked for by banks.

There are cases of two people having the same NI number. Nonetheless, that would resolve a lot of issues.

[AF62]

But don't we already have this? NI number, not infrequently asked for by banks.

As noted above, not everyone has a NINO. So we are a long way off the American practice of using a social security number as a universal identifier.

My understanding is that the only number (almost) everyone in the UK has is an NHS number.

However for political reasons it was decided that this should only be used for health matters and not anything else.

There are cases of two people having the same NI number. Nonetheless, that would resolve a lot of issues.

And it would create a nightmare for those with duplicate NINOs.

Do it properly or don’t do it at all.

[GeoffF100]

You do not have to do that. Here is one possible mechanism. You kick the process off by clicking a box in your main bank account. That results in an entry on the database with a unique primary key plus the identity details that your bank holds.

You (or an imposter) sets up another bank account with the same details as yours. You bank sends you an alert asking you whether you opened that account. If you click the "yes" button, your bank knows that the account is yours, and the other bank is informed too. If you click "no", there is potential identity fraud, and the conflict has to be resolved.

So in my example of Jim Smith at 33 Acacia Avenue the father and Jim Smith at 33 Acacia Avenue the son there would be a potential fraud report.

And who (and how) do they sort that out. Start demanding people come into the bank with multiple forms of ID to prove there isn’t a fraud?

That will go down even worse than the ID card solution.

Yes, in that case, more ID would be required by the bank offering the new account. In most cases that would fix the problem. If not, more ID would be required by the holder of the established account. There is nothing unreasonable about that. Identity fraud should rapidly disappear, and our payments should go straight through. No more frozen accounts or endless security quizzes.

[XFool]

My understanding is that the only number (almost) everyone in the UK has is an NHS number.

And how many people know what theirs is? I can never remember my current, all figure, NHS number and have to look it up. Medical administrators always seem to ask for name and DoB!

Ironically, I can still easily remember my old, original, NHS number - letters and numerals - as written in ink at the bottom of my original birth certificate. (Issued about a month before the NHS officially started)

[didds]

Nonetheless, nobody seems to object to HMRC allocating them a UTR. It would help if we had to provide that and our National Insurance Number when opening accounts, when that is applicable.

does everyone have a UTR? I only ask becasue while I have one thats because when I was self employed I had to file a self assessment.

My wife has only ever been PAYE - I wouldn't have a clue if she has a UTR and she certainly wouldn't (lets not go there ... )

didds

[Lootman]

Nonetheless, nobody seems to object to HMRC allocating them a UTR. It would help if we had to provide that and our National Insurance Number when opening accounts, when that is applicable.

does everyone have a UTR? I only ask becasue while I have one thats because when I was self employed I had to file a self assessment.

My wife has only ever been PAYE - I wouldn't have a clue if she has a UTR and she certainly wouldn't (lets not go there ... )

Like any other entity HMRC is free to designate an identifier for anyone it deals with. But such a code or number has no material significance outside of that entity.

And if like me you do not set up an online account with HMRC then it is moot. I neither know nor care whether I have a UTR.

It is when such IDs bleed into other areas of life that the problems begin.

[AJC5001]

My understanding is that the only number (almost) everyone in the UK has is an NHS number.

Not true of the Scottish NHS, where the number is called a CHI NUMBER.
"The COMMUNITY HEALTH INDEX NUMBER (CHI NUMBER) uniquely identifies a PATIENT on the Community Health Index (Scotland) within the NHS in Scotland."
https://www.datadictionary.nhs.uk/attributes/community_health_index_number.html#:~:text=The%20COMMUNITY%20HEALTH%20INDEX%20NUMBER%20%28,NHS%20NUMBER%20in%20England%20and%20Wales.&text=The%20COMMUNITY%20HEALTH%20INDEX,in%20England%20and%20Wales.&text=HEALTH%20INDEX%20NUMBER%20%28,NHS%20NUMBER%20in%20England

Adrian

[didds]

does everyone have a UTR? I only ask becasue while I have one thats because when I was self employed I had to file a self assessment.

My wife has only ever been PAYE - I wouldn't have a clue if she has a UTR and she certainly wouldn't (lets not go there ... )

Like any other entity HMRC is free to designate an identifier for anyone it deals with. But such a code or number has no material significance outside of that entity.

And if like me you do not set up an online account with HMRC then it is moot. I neither know nor care whether I have a UTR.

It is when such IDs bleed into other areas of life that the problems begin.

well - its not moot if geoff100's suggestion [the bit you edited out for brevity ] is implemented, which is what I was replying to of course.

Nonetheless, nobody seems to object to HMRC allocating them a UTR. It would help if we had to provide that and our National Insurance Number when opening accounts, when that is applicable

maybe "applicable" meant "if you have one" ??

[GeoffF100]

And if like me you do not set up an online account with HMRC then it is moot. I neither know nor care whether I have a UTR.

It is when such IDs bleed into other areas of life that the problems begin.

You do not need an online account to have a UTR. It is printed on all correspondence from HMRC. You also need it to pay them. It is called "Reference" on the paying in slip and has a K after it. Perhaps I can be forgiven for thinking that they do that to confuse people.

If someone opens up a bank account in my name and using my address, I want to know about it. My point here is that these identifiers will usually resolve identity conflicts.

[Lootman]

And if like me you do not set up an online account with HMRC then it is moot. I neither know nor care whether I have a UTR.

It is when such IDs bleed into other areas of life that the problems begin.

You do not need an online account to have a UTR. It is printed on all correspondence from HMRC. You also need it to pay them.

That is not true. I pay HMRC every year and never quote or cite my UTR (if I even have one).

I just send them a cheque through the post.

[GeoffF100]

You do not need an online account to have a UTR. It is printed on all correspondence from HMRC. You also need it to pay them.

That is not true. I pay HMRC every year and never quote or cite my UTR (if I even have one).

I just send them a cheque through the post.

I will take your word for it, but the HMRC instructions on the back of the paying in slip say: send your payslip and a cheque payable to "HM Revenue and Customs only" followed by the UTR with a K added to the end.

[Lootman]

That is not true. I pay HMRC every year and never quote or cite my UTR (if I even have one).

I just send them a cheque through the post.

I will take your word for it, but the HMRC instructions on the back of the paying in slip say: send your payslip and a cheque payable to "HM Revenue and Customs only" followed by the UTR with a K added to the end.

That is possible but I am living proof that they will take your money either way!

[JohnB]

I had 2 UTRs at one point due to HMRC incompetence. Of course I dont want my NHS number to be a financial onez because of insurance companies

[GeoffF100]

What I am suggesting here is low cost measures to identify and resolve identity conflicts, so that banks can reliably identify own accounts with other financial institutions. I am not suggesting identity cards, which morphed into a massively expensive project.

Some banks as asking applicants to allow them to use Open Banking to allow them to look inside your nominated account. I expect that will spread rapidly.

[GeoffF100]

Of course I dont want my NHS number to be a financial onez because of insurance companies

Disclosing your NHS number would not give access to your medical records.

[JohnB]

NHS data is hardly secure, and is managed by companies like Palantir.

https://www.techradar.com/pro/over-a-mi ... are-attack

https://pharmaphorum.com/news/nhs-data- ... w-contract

[stevensfo]

Please guys, what the hell is a NINO???

Steve