Don't let cash be killed

[stevensfo]

Me neither, but most pubs I go to these days hold up the card reader machine without being asked, and have to do a bit of a double take if someone wants to pay cash.

I recently had that experience. I still declined the card reader and patiently counted out the exact change consisting of 20s, 10s, 5s and a variety of coins.

They had a sign up saying "no cash unless you have exact change". So I obliged. If their cunning plan was to deter me from using cash. then it failed.

So you use notes, and the extra is the tip.

I can't see them chasing you and making a citizen's arrest for that.

Steve

PS Where was this? Let me guess. London?

[Lootman]

I recently had that experience. I still declined the card reader and patiently counted out the exact change consisting of 20s, 10s, 5s and a variety of coins.

They had a sign up saying "no cash unless you have exact change". So I obliged. If their cunning plan was to deter me from using cash. then it failed.

So you use notes, and the extra is the tip.

I can't see them chasing you and making a citizen's arrest for that.

Steve

PS Where was this? Let me guess. London?

Yes, London.

I did not want to go as far as Piers Corbyn recently did, where he paid the exact change for a punnet of strawberries, in a no-cash shop, and walked out, challenging them (on video) to stop him. They did not.

I have mentioned here before that one of my kids works in a no-cash restaurant. It is not unusual for people to hand over a bunch of notes and announce that they are leaving. There is not much shops and restaurants can do. Banning cash is harder than you think.

[stevensfo]

So you use notes, and the extra is the tip.

I can't see them chasing you and making a citizen's arrest for that.

Steve

PS Where was this? Let me guess. London?

Yes, London.

I did not want to go as far as Piers Corbyn recently did, where he paid the exact change for a punnet of strawberries, in a no-cash shop, and walked out, challenging them (on video) to stop him. They did not.

I have mentioned here before that one of my kids works in a no-cash restaurant. It is not unusual for people to hand over a bunch of notes and announce that they are leaving. There is not much shops and restaurants can do. Banning cash is harder than you think.

Okay, but the Piers Corbyn thing was embarrassing, a pathetic plea for publicity. Of course they didn't stop him. That's what he wanted!! And they didn't.

Steve

[Lootman]

Yes, London.

I did not want to go as far as Piers Corbyn recently did, where he paid the exact change for a punnet of strawberries, in a no-cash shop, and walked out, challenging them (on video) to stop him. They did not.

I have mentioned here before that one of my kids works in a no-cash restaurant. It is not unusual for people to hand over a bunch of notes and announce that they are leaving. There is not much shops and restaurants can do. Banning cash is harder than you think.

Okay, but the Piers Corbyn thing was embarrassing, a pathetic plea for publicity. Of course they didn't stop him. That's what he wanted!! And they didn't.

Yeah, he is an even bigger dufus than his brother. And I would not do that at a no-cash place. But the point is that people do, perhaps because they think they will get a freebie?

[GeoffF100]

A piece in the Mail Online today https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/car ... index.html

A few excerpts:
[i]...For every card payment, businesses pay four separate fees, which can total up to 2.5 per cent, according to online transaction provider GoCardless. ...This means, for example, every time you buy a pint of milk for 90p from your corner shop and pay by card, the store owner could be paying the equivalent of 8p in fees...

I make that 8.888...%. That is more than 2.5%. This is Money can be rubbish at times.

[GeoffF100]

Really? Most supermarkets seem to be gravitating to card only, or at least the majority of self service machines being card only with just a decreasing few accepting both cards and cash.

Depends. The ticket machines at railway stations still take cash. (Although not a £50 note). Handy if you do not want to create a paper trail of where you went.

Increasingly, you have to be careful about that. I read about someone who bought tickets (not railway tickets) for himself and a friend, and his friend reimbursed him with a bank transfer. His bank wanted proof of entitlement to the money. He had paid online and had a record. He would have had bigger problems if he had paid in cash and no longer had the tickets.

[swill453]

Increasingly, you have to be careful about that. I read about someone who bought tickets (not railway tickets) for himself and a friend, and his friend reimbursed him with a bank transfer. His bank wanted proof of entitlement to the money. He had paid online and had a record. He would have had bigger problems if he had paid in cash and no longer had the tickets.

What? Can you explain in what way a bank would get involved and want to see entitlement, from the recipient of a bank transfer?

Scott.

[GeoffF100]

I had heard about cash deserts, so I looked at the Link machine map:

https://www.link.co.uk/consumers/locator/

The area where I live is swimming with them, and it is not a city centre.

More interesting is the question of how could you pay by cash? Council tax and water can both be paid at the local Post Office or my local newsagents. The bills for BT and Shell Energy broadband can be paid at the Post Office. (A choice between a high price and a poorly rated service.) It is also possible to buy expensive PAYG mobile phone vouchers by cash. It appears to be possible to pay for monthly mobile bundles with cash at Asda. HMRC includes a Bank Giro Credit form at the bottom of each bill, but is is not clear whether there is a bank that will accept cash payments if you do not have an account with them. It is also not clear how you could claim a tax rebate in cash. It is still just about possible to survive without electronic money, but that is hanging by a thread.

[GeoffF100]

Increasingly, you have to be careful about that. I read about someone who bought tickets (not railway tickets) for himself and a friend, and his friend reimbursed him with a bank transfer. His bank wanted proof of entitlement to the money. He had paid online and had a record. He would have had bigger problems if he had paid in cash and no longer had the tickets.

What? Can you explain in what way a bank would get involved and want to see entitlement, from the recipient of a bank transfer?

The bank needs to satisfied that any money that you receive is clean, is yours, and that you came by it honestly. The bank will be fined heavily if they fail to do that. Any payment that you receive is liable to be considered dirty money or the proceeds of fraud, unless you can prove otherwise. If you cannot, you are at risk of being flagged up as a money launderer or fraudster, and banned from holding an account with any bank.

[swill453]

What? Can you explain in what way a bank would get involved and want to see entitlement, from the recipient of a bank transfer?

The bank needs to satisfied that any money that you receive is clean, is yours, and that you came by it honestly. The bank will be fined heavily if they fail to do that. Any payment that you receive is liable to be considered dirty money or the proceeds of fraud, unless you can prove otherwise. If you cannot, you are at risk of being flagged up as a money launderer or fraudster, and banned from holding an account with any bank.

I'm aware of the theory, but you haven't answered my question.

Scott.

[UncleEbenezer]

Last time I looked at a banknote, it had some blurb about "I promise to pay the bearer on demand ....", signed by the Chief Cashier of the Bank of England.

I felt so convinced that was an empty promise that I never even tried to present a fiver at the BoE and collect my five gold sovereigns. Unless I've been wrong about that all along, cash has no intrinsic value, and has had none since it ceased to be gold and silver[1]. As with cheques, much better to do away with it now that we have more convenient methods of exchange. I stopped using cash when the buses started to accept card payments.

[1] Arguably even before that, as the value of precious metals is, like Bitcoin, merely a convention.

[didds]

A piece in the Mail Online today https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/car ... index.html

A few excerpts:
[i]The small local businesses we rely on every day are being forced to hand over thousands of pounds a year in expensive transaction fees, as card transactions soar. .

does the article mention that many banks charge businesses to PAY IN cash? And then charge to take it out again?

business that can pay suppliers (including staff) in cash have a way to use accumlated cash withoutr banking it. Those that dont have that opportunity with suppliers have to at sometime bank it...

[didds]

An obvious way to change the balance between your customers using cash and using a card, is to give a discount for whichever method you wish to encourage.

ISTR that approach was made illegal (for whatever reasons?).

A fuel station in a nearby town had a dual pricing structure in place for cash, and card. But the law changed and discounts couldn't (officially!) be offered for eg cash payments .


Of course that law may well have repealed subsequently

[88V8]

....how could you pay by cash? Council tax and water can both be paid at the local Post Office or my local newsagents. The bills for BT and Shell Energy broadband can be paid at the Post Office. ...It is still just about possible to survive without electronic money, but that is hanging by a thread.

Cash in terms of paying regular or large bills vanished long ago, surely? Cheques.. then SOs.
Cash is about shopping, and quasi-social events such as jumble sales, car boots, the monthly village cafe.

When shopping I always pay small amounts with cash, depending how much I've got on me and that is usually £60+. So the farmers' market for example will be cash cash cash.

Restaurants... hard to get out under £50 for two now even for lunch, so that tends to be card. I was an 'early adopter' with cards, I had an Access card in 1972, but I would never let cash disappear, and I have nothing but scorn for these smug people who hold me up in a queue while they fiddle with their phones.

V8

[GeoffF100]

The bank needs to satisfied that any money that you receive is clean, is yours, and that you came by it honestly. The bank will be fined heavily if they fail to do that. Any payment that you receive is liable to be considered dirty money or the proceeds of fraud, unless you can prove otherwise. If you cannot, you are at risk of being flagged up as a money launderer or fraudster, and banned from holding an account with any bank.

I'm aware of the theory, but you haven't answered my question.

According to the post on MSE, Chase Bank sent the customer a message asking for proof of entitlement (I do not remember whether they froze the account at that stage). The bank was satisfied with the receipts for the tickets. I expect that the money transferred into the account was twice the price paid for the tickets.

If a bank decides that the customer has been money laundering, the account is closed without giving notice or a reason, and a CIFAS marker is set up to ensure that any accounts with other banks are closed, and that no new ones could be opened.

[GeoffF100]

Cash in terms of paying regular or large bills vanished long ago, surely?

No, as I said, it is still just about possible, but you have to pick suppliers that allow it. Over a million do not have bank accounts:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/over-1-millio ... 55339.html

[Lootman]

I'm aware of the theory, but you haven't answered my question.

According to the post on MSE, Chase Bank sent the customer a message asking for proof of entitlement (I do not remember whether they froze the account at that stage). The bank was satisfied with the receipts for the tickets. I expect that the money transferred into the account was twice the price paid for the tickets.

If a bank decides that the customer has been money laundering, the account is closed without giving notice or a reason, and a CIFAS marker is set up to ensure that any accounts with other banks are closed, and that no new ones could be opened.

It is certainly true that banks may reject certain deposits that lack documentation or otherwise look fishy.

But a rail ticket reimbursement is not the kind of amount that is likely to attract adverse scrutiny. The only problem I have had trying to deposit money into somebody else's account is when doing that in cash, which banks no longer allow. A bank transfer or cheque should always be fine, because the source of the funds is given.

[swill453]

I'm aware of the theory, but you haven't answered my question.

According to the post on MSE, Chase Bank sent the customer a message asking for proof of entitlement (I do not remember whether they froze the account at that stage). The bank was satisfied with the receipts for the tickets. I expect that the money transferred into the account was twice the price paid for the tickets.

If a bank decides that the customer has been money laundering, the account is closed without giving notice or a reason, and a CIFAS marker is set up to ensure that any accounts with other banks are closed, and that no new ones could be opened.

That sounds very unusual, there must have been other circumstances not disclosed (here).

If any random person (as far as my bank is concerned) makes a bank transfer of a large sum of money into my account, my bank doesn't get involved at all. I know this because it has happened on many occasions. I could be "entitled" to the money because someone is making a gift to me, there's unlikely to be any proof even if it was asked for.

Scott.

[swill453]

But a rail ticket reimbursement is not the kind of amount that is likely to attract adverse scrutiny..

Note that it was stated as not being railway tickets in this scenario. Even so, person-to-person bank transfers don't get any scrutiny at the recipient end, in my experience.

Scott.

[stevensfo]

I'm aware of the theory, but you haven't answered my question.

According to the post on MSE, Chase Bank sent the customer a message asking for proof of entitlement (I do not remember whether they froze the account at that stage). The bank was satisfied with the receipts for the tickets. I expect that the money transferred into the account was twice the price paid for the tickets.

If a bank decides that the customer has been money laundering, the account is closed without giving notice or a reason, and a CIFAS marker is set up to ensure that any accounts with other banks are closed, and that no new ones could be opened.

This is getting daft. I know that laundering goes on, but the price of a few train tickets, really?

So if the guy hadn't found the receipts, somebody 'decides' that he's a money launderer, all his other accounts are closed and not only that, but the bank doesn't have to give a reason?

Reminds me of the Monty Python court sketch:

"Is this the defendant? Right, guilty as charged. Five years!"
-- Er, m'lud what about a trial first?
"Is that strictly necessary?"


Steve