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Bank Card security

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BBLSP1
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Re: Bank Card security

#153614

Postby BBLSP1 » July 20th, 2018, 10:09 am

Agree entirely with Lootman. I refuse to be a slave to my mobile phone, it is a useful tool, that's all.

However, I can see the stage reached when to claim not to have a smart phone will be considered the same as not being able to read and write in order to function in the modern world. The longer that day is put off, the better, especially as the mobile phone signal in our area is near non-existent, and we are not that many miles from a major UK city. Next solution will be - then move to the city?

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Re: Bank Card security

#153785

Postby AF62 » July 20th, 2018, 6:13 pm

Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:
Lootman wrote:I do not believe that any important service or system should require that people have mobile phones, let alone smart phones. There should always be an alternative.

The alternative is to choose a different supplier.

These are commercial operations and it is entirely reasonable they design their system to meet the needs of the vast majority of their customers.


Yes but I said "important service or system". That might include cases where there is no alternative.

If it was announced that you needed a mobile or smart phone to vote, collect your state pension, use an airport etc. then that would be a problem. There are always people without such devices and other cases where they fail to work when you need them.

Offering access via a phone is fine. It is when that is the only option that problems arise.


But using a smart phone to vote, collect your state pension, use an airport etc. should not be ruled out as an option just because some people choose not to use them. What needs to be considered are the alternatives.

In the example being discussed, VfV moving to text messages, the banks I use which already use this text code system offer an alternative to call you with the code on your landline; a solution which would appear to meet the requirement of those without a mobile phone.

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Re: Bank Card security

#153786

Postby Lootman » July 20th, 2018, 6:16 pm

AF62 wrote:In the example being discussed, VfV moving to text messages, the banks I use which already use this text code system offer an alternative to call you with the code on your landline; a solution which would appear to meet the requirement of those without a mobile phone.

The "call to my landline" idea assumes I am at home. What if I am not? Does this mean that I now cannot make online purchases from work or on a trip? How is that progress when right now I can do that, via the simple mechanism of a password?

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Re: Bank Card security

#153787

Postby johnhemming » July 20th, 2018, 6:27 pm

AF62 wrote:But using a smart phone to vote

Polling stations have a secret ballot, remote voting has the risk of someone being forced to vote in a particular way - it does happen.

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Re: Bank Card security

#153802

Postby Lanark » July 20th, 2018, 7:01 pm

johnhemming wrote:
Lootman wrote:My point was that if someone steals your card and your phone then...

It is much hard to steal a phone via the net than to get someone's credit card details (not necessarily the card).


They dont need to steal the phone, they phone a network providers call centre and use social engineering to get your number transferred to a different phone. They usually do this while signing up for an expensive monthly plan (all paid for with a stolen credit card) so the network provider is heavily incentivised to just go ahead with the transfer.

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Re: Bank Card security

#153810

Postby mc2fool » July 20th, 2018, 7:28 pm

johnhemming wrote:Polling stations have a secret ballot

Actually no, your vote is traceable, and there were suspicions that Special Branch and/or MI5 used that in the '60/70s to find out who was voting for the Communist Party.

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Re: Bank Card security

#153822

Postby AF62 » July 20th, 2018, 8:27 pm

Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:In the example being discussed, VfV moving to text messages, the banks I use which already use this text code system offer an alternative to call you with the code on your landline; a solution which would appear to meet the requirement of those without a mobile phone.

The "call to my landline" idea assumes I am at home. What if I am not? Does this mean that I now cannot make online purchases from work or on a trip? How is that progress when right now I can do that, via the simple mechanism of a password?


Then you get a mobile phone or wait till you get home!

Your choice, the same as it is the bank's choice not to bow to your foibles in their desire to increase security and customer satisfaction for the vast majority.

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Re: Bank Card security

#153823

Postby johnhemming » July 20th, 2018, 8:32 pm

mc2fool wrote:
johnhemming wrote:Polling stations have a secret ballot

Actually no, your vote is traceable, and there were suspicions that Special Branch and/or MI5 used that in the '60/70s to find out who was voting for the Communist Party.

Polling stations have rules which require that someone is allowed to cast their vote without someone else being able to watch it. Each ballot paper does have an index number on it. With a court order it is possible to trace how someone has cast their vote. However, without is nothing happens.

People have all sort of paranoid delusions, that does not make them true.

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Re: Bank Card security

#153832

Postby mc2fool » July 20th, 2018, 9:14 pm

johnhemming wrote:
mc2fool wrote:Actually no, your vote is traceable, and there were suspicions that Special Branch and/or MI5 used that in the '60/70s to find out who was voting for the Communist Party.

Polling stations have rules which require that someone is allowed to cast their vote without someone else being able to watch it. Each ballot paper does have an index number on it. With a court order it is possible to trace how someone has cast their vote. However, without is nothing happens.

People have all sort of paranoid delusions, that does not make them true.

Bah, sloppy ad hominem dismissal -- and of course even if they do it doesn't make it false, eh? :D

Actually I'm not taking a stand on whether the authorities checked out who voted for what, I really have no idea and that part was just anecdote I remember hearing decades ago. My primary point was to highlight that whereas most people think votes in the UK are secret, they are in fact traceable (and the authorities don't always act within the law).

However, on a quick google ... I would say Liberty aren't the sort of organisation that are prone to paranoid delusions:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/election-97-liberty-attacks-marked-ballots-1268750.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/news/vote2001/hi/english/newsid_1355000/1355466.stm
https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/sites/default/files/electoral-commission-feb-2003.pdf

Anyway, sorry, a bit of an OT diversion...

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Re: Bank Card security

#154177

Postby Lootman » July 22nd, 2018, 6:19 pm

AF62 wrote:
Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:In the example being discussed, VfV moving to text messages, the banks I use which already use this text code system offer an alternative to call you with the code on your landline; a solution which would appear to meet the requirement of those without a mobile phone.

The "call to my landline" idea assumes I am at home. What if I am not? Does this mean that I now cannot make online purchases from work or on a trip? How is that progress when right now I can do that, via the simple mechanism of a password?

Then you get a mobile phone or wait till you get home! Your choice, the same as it is the bank's choice not to bow to your foibles in their desire to increase security and customer satisfaction for the vast majority.

Then in that case I am happy that you are not making such decisions, but rather those with a more refined and nuanced customer focus.

This idea is actually less secure, as various posters have already demonstrated. And nobody is seeking to take away the option to pay via phone here - only that reasonable alternatives remain available.

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Re: Bank Card security

#154181

Postby AF62 » July 22nd, 2018, 6:33 pm

Lootman wrote:Then in that case I am happy that you are not making such decisions, but rather those with a more refined and nuanced customer focus.


"refined and nuanced customer focus"

Sorry I have had to pick myself up of the floor from laughing so much.

We are talking about banks you know. These are the people who would sell their grandmothers if they could and will do whatever is cheapest and attracts most new customers.

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Re: Bank Card security

#154183

Postby Lootman » July 22nd, 2018, 6:37 pm

AF62 wrote:
Lootman wrote:Then in that case I am happy that you are not making such decisions, but rather those with a more refined and nuanced customer focus.

"refined and nuanced customer focus"

Sorry I have had to pick myself up of the floor from laughing so much.

We are talking about banks you know. These are the people who would sell their grandmothers if they could and will do whatever is cheapest and attracts most new customers.

Actually we are really talking about the vendors. If banks pass rules so punitive that people stop buying stuff, then vendors will apply pressure to the banks.

I know for a fact I would buy less if an extra step involving mobile phones was involved, and I suspect so would millions more.

Agree 100% that UK banks are clueless, but they do listen to their best customers even if they do not listen to you and I.

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Re: Bank Card security

#154186

Postby AF62 » July 22nd, 2018, 6:52 pm

Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:
Lootman wrote:Then in that case I am happy that you are not making such decisions, but rather those with a more refined and nuanced customer focus.

"refined and nuanced customer focus"

Sorry I have had to pick myself up of the floor from laughing so much.

We are talking about banks you know. These are the people who would sell their grandmothers if they could and will do whatever is cheapest and attracts most new customers.

Actually we are really talking about the vendors. If banks pass rules so punitive that people stop buying stuff, then vendors will apply pressure to the banks.

I know for a fact I would buy less if an extra step involving mobile phones was involved, and I suspect so would millions more.

Agree 100% that UK banks are clueless, but they do listen to their best customers even if they do not listen to you and I.


I suspect the vendors have even less power than the consumer.

However I am not sure where vendors come into the card reader issue. The discussion started about Verified from Visa moving from their horrible online popup and passwords to text messages.

Card readers (in my experience) are only used to set up bank transfers, not spending on retail websites. I cannot see that the suppliers who receive those payments will have any sway with the banks at all to insist they retain card readers for the small number of people who don't own a mobile or don't want to use it. Especially since bank transfers are a significant risk to the banks and their customers.

As for whether the move by Visa to text messages will increase or decrease the volume of transactions through them, I would suggest the change would increase the number significantly.

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Re: Bank Card security

#154188

Postby Lootman » July 22nd, 2018, 6:59 pm

AF62 wrote:As for whether the move by Visa to text messages will increase or decrease the volume of transactions through them, I would suggest the change would increase the number significantly.

I would suggest the exact opposite. I learned a long time ago, when I had the misfortune to have to hire IT workers, that they may understand technology well but they have zero understanding of business, human behaviour, inter-personal skills or customer priorities. You have to watch them like hawks.

The password system works fine. The problem is that it is not used regularly. Our phone systems were designed for chat, not for secure financial transactions. But all that said, as long as Visa indemnifies us all for losses, then why should we care? Make things worse, bring it on.

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Re: Bank Card security

#154194

Postby AF62 » July 22nd, 2018, 7:08 pm

Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:As for whether the move by Visa to text messages will increase or decrease the volume of transactions through them, I would suggest the change would increase the number significantly.

I would suggest the exact opposite. I learned a long time ago, when I had the misfortune to have to hire IT workers, that they may understand technology well but they have zero understanding of business, human behaviour, inter-personal skills or customer priorities. You have to watch them like hawks.

The password system works fine. The problem is that it is not used regularly. Our phone systems were designed for chat, not for secure financial transactions. But all that said, as long as Visa indemnifies us all for losses, then why should we care? Make things worse, bring it on.


Just my recent experience.

Tried to buy car insurance with a Visa card. VfV popup didn't display properly so I couldn't pay with the Visa card and used a Mastercard instead. That would have been one sale Visa would have gained.

You say the password system works fine but the problem is it is not used regularly. That is not working fine. People either reuse passwords, write them down, or constantly do resets. All those issues disappear with text messages.

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Re: Bank Card security

#154197

Postby Lootman » July 22nd, 2018, 7:12 pm

AF62 wrote:You say the password system works fine but the problem is it is not used regularly. That is not working fine. People either reuse passwords, write them down, or constantly do resets. All those issues disappear with text messages.

Agree that the problem is that the password system is not used. But whatever issues disappear will be replaced with new issues that will appear. Many have been listed on this thread.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with writing passwords down. It is more a matter of where you keep that piece of paper - not with the card obviously. It is less secure to use passwords you can remember

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Re: Bank Card security

#154200

Postby AF62 » July 22nd, 2018, 7:18 pm

Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:You say the password system works fine but the problem is it is not used regularly. That is not working fine. People either reuse passwords, write them down, or constantly do resets. All those issues disappear with text messages.

Agree that the problem is that the password system is not used. But whatever issues disappear will be replaced with new issues that will appear. Many have been listed on this thread.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with writing passwords down. It is more a matter of where you keep that piece of paper - not with the card obviously. It is less secure to use passwords you can remember


The two questions that Visa will have considered are -
- Will people use our card in preference to Mastercard / Amex if we get rid of Verified by Visa and move to text messages
- Will we suffer an increase in fraud.

They seem to think the net answer to those questions is they will make more money. I cannot see how they would not, given how hateful Verified by Visa popups are.

As for writing passwords down, I just let Chrome suggest random passwords and let Google store them and have no idea what they are. If I need them then they are in Chrome on my mobile phone...

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Re: Bank Card security

#154201

Postby Lootman » July 22nd, 2018, 7:21 pm

AF62 wrote:The two questions that Visa will have considered are -
- Will people use our card in preference to Mastercard / Amex if we get rid of Verified by Visa and move to text messages
- Will we suffer an increase in fraud.

They seem to think the net answer to those questions is they will make more money. I cannot see how they would not, given how hateful Verified by Visa popups are.

As for writing passwords down, I just let Chrome suggest random passwords and let Google store them and have no idea what they are.

If Mastercard do the same then there will be no competitive advantage.

It seems obvious to me there will be more fraud because my password is more secure than my phone.

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Re: Bank Card security

#154208

Postby AF62 » July 22nd, 2018, 7:30 pm

Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:The two questions that Visa will have considered are -
- Will people use our card in preference to Mastercard / Amex if we get rid of Verified by Visa and move to text messages
- Will we suffer an increase in fraud.

They seem to think the net answer to those questions is they will make more money. I cannot see how they would not, given how hateful Verified by Visa popups are.

As for writing passwords down, I just let Chrome suggest random passwords and let Google store them and have no idea what they are.

If Mastercard do the same then there will be no competitive advantage.

It seems obvious to me there will be more fraud because my password is more secure than my phone.


Security isn't the driver for the banks; making money is, and the money comes from people using their cards. They will swallow the losses if they make more in commission.

Mastercard currently don't do anything special for online purchases so the definitely have the edge over Visa for ease of use.

So Mastercard presumably think the added commission from ease of use outweighs the losses from fraud, whereas in the past Visa clearly didn't (or were sold a pup by their IT department) and are moving to a system which they think will make more money as it is easier to use.

Time will tell, and if Mastercard move to text messages then Visa were right. If Visa give up on text messages (they are never going back to the horrible Verified by Visa) then Mastercard were right.

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Re: Bank Card security

#154400

Postby DrBunsenHoneydew » July 23rd, 2018, 2:45 pm

Mastercard SecureCode provides enhanced security for online shopping at retailers who sign up for it.


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