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Bank Card security

Lootman
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Re: Bank Card security

#155911

Postby Lootman » July 29th, 2018, 9:37 am

AF62 wrote:Hmmm, sorry I am not going to design any security system around three people.

Suppose I am overseas where my UK phone does not work, and I need to buy a plane ticket back to London. According to your idea, I can't.

I've hired a lot of IT guys and they have a tendency to love the technology and ignore the people. "Know your customer" is pretty much gospel in the finance business. Start with them and not the technology.

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Re: Bank Card security

#155913

Postby AF62 » July 29th, 2018, 9:47 am

Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:Hmmm, sorry I am not going to design any security system around three people.

Suppose I am overseas where my UK phone does not work, and I need to buy a plane ticket back to London. According to your idea, I can't.


If I was Visa I would rather not have people being able to buy things on the internet from somewhere on the far side of the planet from where they live and do not have access to a phone to confirm it is them buying it. It would seem a bit of a security risk to me, and I would not design my security systems around those few people.

If they need a plane ticket that desperately there are many more ways they can do it securely, such as in person at the airport where handily they will have the photo id of their passport.

Lootman
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Re: Bank Card security

#155916

Postby Lootman » July 29th, 2018, 9:55 am

AF62 wrote:
Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:Hmmm, sorry I am not going to design any security system around three people.

Suppose I am overseas where my UK phone does not work, and I need to buy a plane ticket back to London. According to your idea, I can't.

If I was Visa I would rather not have people being able to buy things on the internet from somewhere on the far side of the planet from where they live and do not have access to a phone to confirm it is them buying it. It would seem a bit of a security risk to me, and I would not design my security systems around those few people.

If they need a plane ticket that desperately there are many more ways they can do it securely, such as in person at the airport where handily they will have the photo id of their passport.

I am glad you see the problem. I don't know but you seem a little bit too much in love with the idea of the Banks behaving like fascists with regard to their customers. Perhaps that explains why Banks have such poor reputations (and profitability).

In any event all I will say is that I am glad you're not in charge of deciding such things, and I feel sure a compromise will be worked out and alternative options will be made available that don't leave Banks exposed to allegations of insensitivity and discriminatory practices.

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Re: Bank Card security

#155918

Postby AF62 » July 29th, 2018, 9:58 am

Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:
Lootman wrote:
Suppose I am overseas where my UK phone does not work, and I need to buy a plane ticket back to London. According to your idea, I can't.

If I was Visa I would rather not have people being able to buy things on the internet from somewhere on the far side of the planet from where they live and do not have access to a phone to confirm it is them buying it. It would seem a bit of a security risk to me, and I would not design my security systems around those few people.

If they need a plane ticket that desperately there are many more ways they can do it securely, such as in person at the airport where handily they will have the photo id of their passport.

I am glad you see the problem. I don't know but you seem a little bit too much in love with the idea of the Banks behaving like fascists with regard to their customers. Perhaps that explains why Banks have such poor reputations (and profitability).

In any event all I will say is that I am glad you're not in charge of deciding such things, and I feel sure a compromise will be worked out and alternative options will be made available that don't leave Banks exposed to allegations of insensitivity and discriminatory practices.


I am not in love with the banks, but understand their commercial drivers.

As for those three people who are in outer-Mongolia and need to buy a plane ticket immediately online but without access to a mobile, then I am sure the banks are devoting many hours of thought so they can treat them fairly.

Lootman
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Re: Bank Card security

#155920

Postby Lootman » July 29th, 2018, 10:04 am

AF62 wrote:As for those three people who are in outer-Mongolia and need to buy a plane ticket immediately online but without access to a mobile, then I am sure the banks are devoting many hours of thought so they can treat them fairly.

More likely what will happen is that some lawyer will notice that 80% of those affected will be non-white single mothers, or some such, and then we see discrimination lawsuits flying around. The insurance companies got stung like that as I recall.

One idea would be to allow people to choose mobile phone verification if they feel it makes them more secure. And allow for a non-phone solution for everyone else. I am all for options. Everyone should be.

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Re: Bank Card security

#155925

Postby AF62 » July 29th, 2018, 10:13 am

Lootman wrote:One idea would be to allow people to choose mobile phone verification if they feel it makes them more secure. And allow for a non-phone solution for everyone else. I am all for options. Everyone should be.


You keep saying it is mobile phone verification yet all the systems I have used offer options for mobile and landline.

Also it is not verification to make the customer feel more secure, but verification to make Visa feel more secure.

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Re: Bank Card security

#155926

Postby Lootman » July 29th, 2018, 10:16 am

AF62 wrote:
Lootman wrote:One idea would be to allow people to choose mobile phone verification if they feel it makes them more secure. And allow for a non-phone solution for everyone else. I am all for options. Everyone should be.

You keep saying it is mobile phone verification yet all the systems I have used offer options for mobile and landline.

Again, the landline option only works if I happen to be at home.

AF62 wrote:Also it is not verification to make the customer feel more secure, but verification to make Visa feel more secure.

It should be both. If your customers are not happy then they will find ways around the system which are less secure.

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Re: Bank Card security

#155928

Postby AF62 » July 29th, 2018, 10:25 am

Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:
Lootman wrote:One idea would be to allow people to choose mobile phone verification if they feel it makes them more secure. And allow for a non-phone solution for everyone else. I am all for options. Everyone should be.

You keep saying it is mobile phone verification yet all the systems I have used offer options for mobile and landline.

Again, the landline option only works if I happen to be at home.


And back to the three people in outer-Mongolia. Sorry can't see Visa having a particular system for them.

Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:Also it is not verification to make the customer feel more secure, but verification to make Visa feel more secure.

It should be both. If your customers are not happy then they will find ways around the system which are less secure.


Which is exactly why Visa are moving away from the awful Verified by Visa system, where as reported by others in this thread, people found ways around it which made it less secure and are moving to a system which is more secure.

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Re: Bank Card security

#155946

Postby XFool » July 29th, 2018, 12:08 pm

AF62 wrote:
Lootman wrote:There has to be a way of ensuring that customers can get the denominations that they want. Even at that "unmanned" Barclays branch there is still a human teller for commercial customers and, if you ask for 50's, you get directed to that teller.

There doesn't have to be a way to give you cash in specific denominations. The bank could just tell you to like it or lump it.

As for cash, I struggle to remember the last time I paid for anything at all in cash. I have had the same emergency £20 note in my wallet for the last couple of months. The vast majority of my payments are now NFC using my phone.

Lootman wrote:Your other point renders this issue moot. As long as an online transaction can be done 100% on a PC or laptop, with no need for a second device, then there is no problem. That is how it is now and how it should remain.

AF62 wrote:That isn't going to happen. As someone who started using phone banking back in 1989 there has been one direction of change and that is to an increased level of security. There have been too many stories coming out recently and 2FA is the inevitable direction it is going.


Lootman wrote:The problem here, as various people have noted, is that this solution is less secure, because phones are inherently not secure devices. There will be a lot of pushback if Banks try and ram this down peoples' throats without a reasonable and viable alternative for those without phones, whose phone cannot always be guaranteed to work or for those who do not want banking details transmitted through the phone networks.

How does the addition of the use of a mobile to provide a 2FA check make the solution less secure?

It is an additional level of security on top of the existing PC security. You may see it as not adding any security due to the possibility of sim swap, but I cannot see that reduces the existing security.

As for banking details transmitted through the phone networks - what "banking details" are these. None of the banks I use that use a phone as part of 2FA transmit any "banking details" through the phone network.

Well yes! What can one say? Apart from: "Who WANTS £50 notes?"

AFAIK, I have never ever even been in possession of a single £50 note. Apart from simple curiosity, why would I want to be? - I still don't even like £20 notes. I can't imagine a reason and can't help noticing that I increasingly see signs in shops: "£50 notes not accepted."

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Re: Bank Card security

#155948

Postby PinkDalek » July 29th, 2018, 12:27 pm

XFool wrote:Well yes! What can one say? Apart from: "Who WANTS £50 notes?"


Cash in hand builders and drug peddlers? That sort or person, possibly. ;)

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Re: Bank Card security

#155956

Postby XFool » July 29th, 2018, 1:41 pm

PinkDalek wrote:
XFool wrote:Well yes! What can one say? Apart from: "Who WANTS £50 notes?"

Cash in hand builders and drug peddlers? That sort or person, possibly. ;)

You might say that. I couldn't possibly comment. ;)

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Re: Bank Card security

#155976

Postby AF62 » July 29th, 2018, 4:55 pm

PinkDalek wrote:
XFool wrote:Well yes! What can one say? Apart from: "Who WANTS £50 notes?"


Cash in hand builders and drug peddlers? That sort or person, possibly. ;)


Go shopping in Costco in trade hours and you will see an awful lot of purchases made with £50 notes...

However the £50 has nothing on the Euro, where the note of choice for serious drug peddlers is the €500. Apparently you can fit €5,000,000 in a briefcase.

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Re: Bank Card security

#156192

Postby Lootman » July 30th, 2018, 8:13 pm

XFool wrote:What can one say? Apart from: "Who WANTS £50 notes?" AFAIK, I have never ever even been in possession of a single £50 note. Apart from simple curiosity, why would I want to be?

They are becoming increasingly useful, as inflation takes the cost of a round of drinks for four over 20 quid and a restaurant meal for two to 50 quid or more. I usually use them for paying amounts between 20 and 50. Bought a pub lunch for 4 of us the other day with one, in fact.

Also, if you are in the habit of taking out a few hundred in cash at a time, then 50s are much more compact then 20s. And saying you need 50's gets you access to a human teller.

I have not run into the problem cited of businesses not accepting them. Some shopkeepers scrutinise them, thinking that they are the most likely note to be forged. But since it is impossible to get them in change, meaning I can only get them from a bank, the chance of my 50 being a fake is effectively zero.

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Re: Bank Card security

#156225

Postby AF62 » July 30th, 2018, 10:46 pm

Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:What can one say? Apart from: "Who WANTS £50 notes?" AFAIK, I have never ever even been in possession of a single £50 note. Apart from simple curiosity, why would I want to be?

They are becoming increasingly useful, as inflation takes the cost of a round of drinks for four over 20 quid and a restaurant meal for two to 50 quid or more. I usually use them for paying amounts between 20 and 50. Bought a pub lunch for 4 of us the other day with one, in fact.

Also, if you are in the habit of taking out a few hundred in cash at a time, then 50s are much more compact then 20s. And saying you need 50's gets you access to a human teller.

I have not run into the problem cited of businesses not accepting them. Some shopkeepers scrutinise them, thinking that they are the most likely note to be forged. But since it is impossible to get them in change, meaning I can only get them from a bank, the chance of my 50 being a fake is effectively zero.


So much hassle when you could pay safely with a card.

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Re: Bank Card security

#156233

Postby chas49 » July 31st, 2018, 12:34 am

Lootman wrote: But since it is impossible to get them in change, meaning I can only get them from a bank, the chance of my 50 being a fake is effectively zero.

The chance of you unknowingly having a fake may be near zero (assuming that banks check all notes that pass through their hands), but to a shop cashier, the chance of you (or someone else) giving them a fake is much higher. So your note will be checked.

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Re: Bank Card security

#156263

Postby Lootman » July 31st, 2018, 9:37 am

AF62 wrote:So much hassle when you could pay safely with a card.

It is zero hassle to me. Your mileage may vary.

I use cards a lot as well. Horses for courses.

chas49 wrote:
Lootman wrote: But since it is impossible to get them in change, meaning I can only get them from a bank, the chance of my 50 being a fake is effectively zero.

The chance of you unknowingly having a fake may be near zero (assuming that banks check all notes that pass through their hands), but to a shop cashier, the chance of you (or someone else) giving them a fake is much higher. So your note will be checked.

Yes, there might be a risk if I take in 50s from my business and then spend them at another business. My point was more that I don't have any problem with spending 50s because there is zero chance of me having a fake note, because in my case I only get 50s from a Bank (assuming banks have proper checks which surely they do). You cannot get a 50 in change (*)

But given the scrutiny that 50s get then, if I were a forger, I'd probably do 20s instead :D

(*) I suppose you could if the bill was 33 and you offered 4 20s and three pound coins. But in that case you presumably wanted a 50, and would say so.

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Re: Bank Card security

#156266

Postby swill453 » July 31st, 2018, 9:43 am

Lootman wrote:You cannot get a 50 in change

You can in Scotland, if you pay with a £100 note.

On the other hand, if all your money is in fivers, you can't get any notes in your change. You can of course get forged coins, but that risk is there whatever denomination of note you used.

I always used to prefer using fivers for everything, and was disappointed that you couldn't get them from cash machines. But the modern plastic note is just horrible to handle - too shiny, slidey and un-bendy. This is a major factor that's driving me towards using card for everything.

Scott.

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Re: Bank Card security

#156267

Postby chas49 » July 31st, 2018, 9:43 am

Lootman wrote:Yes, there might be a risk if I take in 50s from my business and then spend them at another business. My point was more that I don't have any problem with spending 50s because there is zero chance of me having a fake note, because in my case I only get 50s from a Bank (assuming banks have proper checks which surely they do). You cannot get a 50 in change (*)


My point was not that *you* "know" you haven't got a forged note, but that the person you're paying cannot "know" that. Hence the scrutiny you describe. So having fifties (obtained in a manned bank branch :) ) isn't more convenient IMHO.

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Re: Bank Card security

#156282

Postby Lootman » July 31st, 2018, 10:31 am

chas49 wrote:
Lootman wrote:Yes, there might be a risk if I take in 50s from my business and then spend them at another business. My point was more that I don't have any problem with spending 50s because there is zero chance of me having a fake note, because in my case I only get 50s from a Bank (assuming banks have proper checks which surely they do). You cannot get a 50 in change (*)

My point was not that *you* "know" you haven't got a forged note, but that the person you're paying cannot "know" that. Hence the scrutiny you describe. So having fifties (obtained in a manned bank branch :) ) isn't more convenient IMHO.

Yes, I understood your point. Some places do hold my 50 up to a light and check. But since they are always genuine, I have never had one refused. Worst case the transaction takes a few extra seconds - about the same time it takes to enter a PIN :)

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Re: Bank Card security

#156381

Postby stevensfo » July 31st, 2018, 5:13 pm

So much hassle when you could pay safely with a card.


My wife travels a lot for her work and has had plenty of mysterious claims in her statements and has spent too much time chasing the bank, so now she uses cash as much as possible.

Likewise, in a world where privacy, ID theft, data protection etc is so important, I try to use cards as little as possible. Likewise contactless, which I totally avoid. The banks are 'shops' and 'the client is king'. The Revolut card allows customers to turn the contactless function on/off. Does Barclays, Lloyds or HSBC allow this? I bet they don't!

Re. 50 pound notes, well, most shops abroad have simple note-checker devices that take one second to confirm that the note is genuine. Loads of people use 100 euro notes.

Steve


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