Safer than cash?

[Itsallaguess]

Such a construction is a "Faraday cage". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

In order to work properly, it has to be earthed. Otherwise it simply acts as a big retransmission aerial to the devices inside.

It might help, a bit, but it is a poor solution, to problem which is non-existent anyway.

Since, as I have pointed out, such transactions would all be detectable and reversible. Dead easy for the authorities to track down the perpetrators of such a crime.

It's fine to keep repeating the point about all potential cashless transaction-issues being 'detectable and reversible', but that's ignoring the point that we'd no doubt have to wade through the awful labyrinthine bank-processes to actually get them sorted out....

We're covered with all sorts of insurances that mean we'll often get back to where we started were the worst to happen, but it's the hassle involved in getting sorted out that's the biggest pain....

If these cashless transactions are error-prone, either due to simple theft or mistakes in the readers, then it's the same story - we might get back what we're owed, but it's most likely to be a right royal pain to do so....

Give me cash any day....

God almighty - I've finally turned into my Dad.....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[gryffron]

Yeah but who's going to be so stupid as to commit a crime where the perpetrator is CERTAIN to be detected? Ok, a few people actually are that stupid. But not many, and they're mostly locked up already. Generally, criminals are opportunists who commit crimes that (they believe) are hard to detect. And grabbing a bunch of your cash is so much easier.

And a smart card is so convenient, quick and easy. Cash is just so tedious and fiddly. I hardly ever use it these days, and never carry coins.

Gryff
Who had to write a cheque today. The last one was Sep-2015. Still 3 left in my Midland Bank(!!) chequebook.

[Lootman]

And a smart card is so convenient, quick and easy. Cash is just so tedious and fiddly. I hardly ever use it these days, and never carry coins.

Then why is it that, when waiting in a queue to pay for something, I notice being held up more by people with cards who get the PIN wrong, or where the "contactless" feature has stopped working, or the transaction is rejected for some other reason and an argument ensues?

Although people trying to pay with coupons and the like are probably worse.

The fastest way to pay is cash, assuming that you have the right amount in your hand, as I try and do. And lots of people appreciate cash - for instance waiters like to get their tip in cash even if you use a card to pay the bill. Whilst my building contractor "pays the VAT" if I pay him in cash.

[gryffron]

Whilst my building contractor "pays the VAT" if I pay him in cash.

So your defence of cash is that "it's so much easier to commit crime with cash". Which is precisely the same as my arguement against it.

Thanks
Gryff

[Lootman]

Whilst my building contractor "pays the VAT" if I pay him in cash.

So your defence of cash is that "it's so much easier to commit crime with cash". Which is precisely the same as my arguement against it.

Crime? Where the heck did you get that from what I wrote?

My contractor gives me a 20% discount if I pay in cash. How he squares that away with the Vatman is not my concern. He is just quoting me a price and I pay that price. Discounts for cash are fairly routine.

[AF62]

Using a PIN takes only a few seconds more and is much safer.

A PIN makes it safer for the bank but not for the bank's customer.

If you make a transaction with a PIN it is hard to deny you made the transaction - either you did, you told someone your PIN, or your PIN was compromised. So the burden of proof you didn't make a transaction is on you.

With contactless there is no positive check it is the cardholder who is making the transaction as with a PIN. In which case the burden of proof falls to the bank to demonstrate you made the transaction if you say you did not.

Hence the reason why the banks are keen on NFC on mobiles, as this shifts the burden back to the customer as you have to unlock the screen (i.e. demonstrate it is you or you have been careless with your security) before making a purchase.

[Lootman]

With contactless there is no positive check it is the cardholder who is making the transaction as with a PIN. In which case the burden of proof falls to the bank to demonstrate you made the transaction if you say you did not.

Banks get around that in two ways. First they limit contactless to small amounts - mine is 30 quid. Secondly, if your pattern of contactless use changes abruptly, they block the card and you have to use a PIN anyway. That has happened to me twice.

Hence the reason why the banks are keen on NFC on mobiles, as this shifts the burden back to the customer as you have to unlock the screen (i.e. demonstrate it is you or you have been careless with your security) before making a purchase.

If people at the till have to whip out their phone as well as their card, then the queues will get longer and everyone will be unhappy. I'd just pay in cash instead.

[AF62]

Hence the reason why the banks are keen on NFC on mobiles, as this shifts the burden back to the customer as you have to unlock the screen (i.e. demonstrate it is you or you have been careless with your security) before making a purchase.

If people at the till have to whip out their phone as well as their card, then the queues will get longer and everyone will be unhappy. I'd just pay in cash instead.

You don't use your phone and card, just your phone. The phone uses NFC to communicate with the contactless terminal to make the payment. You don't even need to have the card with you.

And how I hate people taking forever to rummage through their purse to find the last 2p for the exact change.

[Lootman]

And how I hate people taking forever to rummage through their purse to find the last 2p for the exact change.

I guess people see what they want to see AKA confirmation bias. To me the problem is people who can't get their phone to work or whose card keeps getting rejected.

That is why God invented fivers (and why note denominations are important, to echo our other conversation).

[AF62]

And how I hate people taking forever to rummage through their purse to find the last 2p for the exact change.

I guess people see what they want to see AKA confirmation bias. To me the problem is people who can't get their phone to work or whose card keeps getting rejected.

Perhaps it is because I rarely see anyone actually paying in cash these days. Everyone is contactless card on the machine and gone.

On the odd occasion someone does pay cash it seems to be either someone peeling twenties off a wad of notes or someone 'helpfully' rummaging in their purse for that last 2p.

Mind you I actually saw someone write a cheque to pay the other day!

[Lootman]

And how I hate people taking forever to rummage through their purse to find the last 2p for the exact change.

I guess people see what they want to see AKA confirmation bias. To me the problem is people who can't get their phone to work or whose card keeps getting rejected.

Perhaps it is because I rarely see anyone actually paying in cash these days. Everyone is contactless card on the machine and gone.

For small amounts in locations with a younger and affluent demographic, perhaps. I see plenty of cash being used as well, including by me. I don't write so many cheques any more though.

For me, cash is convenient, portable, fungible, anonymous and (given the topic) safe. Your mileage may vary.

[AF62]

For small amounts in locations with a younger and affluent demographic, perhaps.

No, it doesn't matter whether I am in Waitrose or Lidl, cards seem to be used by the vast majority.

For me, cash is convenient, portable, fungible, anonymous and (given the topic) safe. Your mileage may vary.

Cards meet all those requirements for me, and for the anonymous aspect I am happy for the bank to know where I have shopped.

I can see that some people will still require cash for their 'special' purchases to remain anonymous , so I can see it will live on. However I wonder if there will become a point where those who have cash are looked in with suspicion as to why they are using it.

[Slarti]

I can see that some people will still require cash for their 'special' purchases to remain anonymous , so I can see it will live on. However I wonder if there will become a point where those who have cash are looked in with suspicion as to why they are using it.

We did our weekly shop yesterday, baker's, butcher's and Tesco. in all 3 places there were people who paid cash. You have no choice about it in the baker's, the butcher takes both, but most people seem to pay cash unless it is a big bill and even in Tesco people seem happy to pay a couple of hundred quid bill in cash. I don't there as there are advantages for me in using my credit card in there.

More cards are used, but there are still many people, out here in the sticks who use cash.

Slarti

[AF62]

I can see that some people will still require cash for their 'special' purchases to remain anonymous , so I can see it will live on. However I wonder if there will become a point where those who have cash are looked in with suspicion as to why they are using it.

We did our weekly shop yesterday, baker's, butcher's and Tesco. in all 3 places there were people who paid cash. You have no choice about it in the baker's, the butcher takes both, but most people seem to pay cash unless it is a big bill and even in Tesco people seem happy to pay a couple of hundred quid bill in cash. I don't there as there are advantages for me in using my credit card in there.

More cards are used, but there are still many people, out here in the sticks who use cash.

Slarti

Exactly as the BBC recently reported - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32778196 Cards are in the ascendancy and cash is decreasing rapidly. What is happening in London today will be all the rage in Little Snorington in ten years time.

Interesting to see from the BBC report that "cash was used in was used in more than eight out of 10 purchases in pubs, clubs, and newsagents". Newsagents I can understand due to the low value (do people still buy newspapers?), but I wonder whether the pubs and clubs is due to people not wanting their spending on alcohol to appear on statements so there is some deniability (although going back to the newsagents is it deniability for spending on cigarettes).

So in for the 'safer' question, cash spending might be safer if you are spending on things your other half would rather you didn't and you didn't want paper evidence.

[Slarti]

Exactly as the BBC recently reported - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32778196 Cards are in the ascendancy and cash is decreasing rapidly. What is happening in London today will be all the rage in Little Snorington in ten years time.

Interesting to see from the BBC report that "cash was used in was used in more than eight out of 10 purchases in pubs, clubs, and newsagents". Newsagents I can understand due to the low value (do people still buy newspapers?), but I wonder whether the pubs and clubs is due to people not wanting their spending on alcohol to appear on statements so there is some deniability (although going back to the newsagents is it deniability for spending on cigarettes).

So in for the 'safer' question, cash spending might be safer if you are spending on things your other half would rather you didn't and you didn't want paper evidence.

Yeah, I still have the problem with that of how do they know how many cash transactions there are?

How do they count the ones with my window cleaner, gardener or my neighbours one with the kid down the street who does the car washing for him?


Pubs and clubs. If you only have cash you can't overspend, or in a drunken stupor, pay for the drinks of others you don't know.

Slarti

[SalvorHardin]

Let's say that you want to buy something off a friend or neighbour, or perhaps from someone you don't know at a car boot sale. How do you pay them given that the vast majority of people are not able to receive payments via debit card? The only individuals I know who can do this are tradesmen. The terminals and the monthly costs aren't cheap for many people.

Are we going to end up having to use PayPal, or go to the nearest supermarket to buy them an Amazon gift card and end up getting change in the form of barter goods such as sweets and stamps?

There's a big push under way to eliminate cash to cut banks' costs and to make it much harder to engage in illegal transactions. There's also the conspiracy theory that having eliminated cash the state can then track everyone's purchases and impose negative interest rates. Not as far fetched as I'd have said a couple of years ago. That said quite a few people would switch to using Euros, US Dollars and Swiss Francs as a parallel currency for legal and illegal transactions.

Of course we may end up with a system like Kenya's M-Pesa, though Britain doesn't have the same sort of incentives at work (corruption, poverty) to encourage its adoption.

[AF62]

Let's say that you want to buy something off a friend or neighbour, or perhaps from someone you don't know at a car boot sale. How do you pay them given that the vast majority of people are not able to receive payments via debit card? The only individuals I know who can do this are tradesmen. The terminals and the monthly costs aren't cheap for many people.

Are we going to end up having to use PayPal, or go to the nearest supermarket to buy them an Amazon gift card and end up getting change in the form of barter goods such as sweets and stamps?

You could just use Paym - https://paym.co.uk/ - Most of the UK banks support it.

[gryffron]

Let's say that you want to buy something off a friend or neighbour, or perhaps from someone you don't know at a car boot sale. How do you pay them given that the vast majority of people are not able to receive payments via debit card? The only individuals I know who can do this are tradesmen. The terminals and the monthly costs aren't cheap for many people.

Fastpay from your internet banking direct to theirs, instantly. I use this to pay friends regularly. And even some visiting tradesmen seem to like this method of payment. The only completely free option to get money into a small business account??
Bit ott for the car boot I grant you.

Gryff

[melonfool]

Every tradesperson I've had in the last year has wanted a faster online payment. Except the window cleaner, he wants a cheque. Consequently I've never paid him as I have no clue where the cheque book is!

I am happy to use PayPal, paym, any of those electronic payments. But not cash or cheque because I never have enough cash, or don't know when they are coming, or can't find the cheque book!

Mel

[SalvorHardin]

Fastpay from your internet banking direct to theirs, instantly. I use this to pay friends regularly. And even some visiting tradesmen seem to like this method of payment. The only completely free option to get money into a small business account??
Bit ott for the car boot I grant you.

Gryff

The thing is that I don't do internet banking, nor will I, because it is a security risk (to put it mildly). The banks love it because they can offload the risk of fraud onto their customers whilst the police aren't all that bothered because this type of fraud is reported to the banks (so the crime figures can be fiddled).

So when Ross Anderson says he has never banked online – and has no plans to do so primarily because the customers carry the risks of fraud – the rest of us might want to take notice.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/n ... ity-online

Then there are the problems caused when the banks' online systems crash for weeks (or months as happened to TSB). I prefer to keep some of my affairs offline. Heck, one of the five brokers I use is old-fashioned full service where you don't have an internet portal!