The Lemon Fool

Slarti wrote:Yet another reason for not wanting one of the damn things!

Except every transaction is traceable and reversible. So they are 1000 times safer than cash. And cheaper for retailers than CC.

Gryff

Except every transaction is traceable and reversible. So they are 1000 times safer than cash. And cheaper for retailers than CC.

Just to point out that though this used to be the case - and it was a great problem for retailers which included me - this should no longer be the case and there should be the same fee for both debit and credit cards. (Don't worry the card companies find other ways to squeeze extra dosh out of the business customer!)

I don't know if they are 1000 times safer than cash but I think people should remember these things about cash:

cash is not 'free' for a business to deposit. This comes as a surprise to most people but businesses depositing cash have to pay a fee (usually so much per £100 of cash) to do so. It is true that some business accounts (I don't think all) allow you to deposit so much cash per month for free but my experience as a shopkeeper was that the amount was constantly reduced as banks don't want to handle cash i.e. they don't want to pay enough staff to deal with handling cash;

it is cosy these days to remember what seem to be the 'good old days' of cash but people forget the payroll robberies which usually involved robbery with violence and the attacks on business owners and their staff members taking cash to the banks. I'm old enough to remember these things not only from the newspapers but personal experience. My Dad who was a factory worker in a big local factory came home one day in great distress. None of the workers had been paid (Friday was pay day then) because of a payroll robbery - it was normal then to pay pretty much all manual workers at least in cash and the van bringing the cash to the factory had been held up (fortunately on that occasion with no injuries or loss of life though that was by no means always the case). No credit cards to fall back on then. At the time 'respectable' working class families prided themselves on paying all their debts to the milkman, the rent man, the insurance man (or woman - just a few of those were by then women ) and a variety of others each Friday after being paid themselves + of course they needed cash for the weekend's food shop (and any pleasure activities like going to the cinema were off if you did not have cash in your purse). This was a point of honour not just in itself but because many of the people you were paying were equally dependent on having cash in hand to pay their own bills or buy in fresh stock for the coming week. My Dad knew his firm would pay him but it would be early next week, not this week, before fresh supplies of cash could be brought in. I remember as a ten year old being given the bus fare to go to my maternal grandmother's to ask for cash - she was a poor as a church mouse herself living on the State Pension plus a bit extra she gained by working to 65 instead of 60 as a printer's feeder but completely understanding the issue she immediately gave me all that was left of her pension plus the small cash savings she had in her house.

I don't mean that contactless cards are completely safe but whatever was or is completely safe? Cash can be stolen in bank, payroll, business or household robberies. Cheques can be forged from scratch or fraudulently altered. PINS can be seen over your shoulder (unless you sufficiently assertive to kick, elbow, or yell at anyone standing too close) or via illicit cameras attached to the cash machine (or in the shop within range of the machine) which are so small that the ordinary user does not notice them.

gryffron wrote:

Slarti wrote:Yet another reason for not wanting one of the damn things!

Except every transaction is traceable and reversible. So they are 1000 times safer than cash. And cheaper for retailers than CC.

I am aware of a number of young people who, after falling on them with crys of delight when they first were available, have now stopped using them and reverted to cash, especially for nights out, after overspending. Their words were that it was far too easy to pay for things that they couldn't afford, whereas if they are using cash, when it has gone, it has gone.

Slarti


PS And for me, I don't want to be tracked any more than I have to be, unless there is an advantage in it for me.

Slarti wrote:Yet another reason for not wanting one of the damn things!

Although contactless cards seems to have become the default, most providers will give you a non-contactless one if you ask, and for those that don't I've found that scoring deeply (but not all the way through) with a sharp knife either side of the chip works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwBa1FwaAbo

gryffron wrote:

Slarti wrote:Yet another reason for not wanting one of the damn things!

Except every transaction is traceable and reversible. So they are 1000 times safer than cash. And cheaper for retailers than CC.

I might believe such cards are safe but "1000 times safer than cash"?

Nothing is safer than cash. I hand over the cash, I get the item, zero risk of any more cash being "deducted", "charged", debited" or otherwise fraudulently extracted!

Lootman wrote:
Nothing is safer than cash.

I hand over the cash, I get the item, zero risk of any more cash being "deducted", "charged", debited" or otherwise fraudulently extracted!

I might believe cash is fairly safe, but 'zero risk'?

What if you get the wrong change?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Itsallaguess wrote:

Lootman wrote:
Nothing is safer than cash.

I hand over the cash, I get the item, zero risk of any more cash being "deducted", "charged", debited" or otherwise fraudulently extracted!

I might believe cash is fairly safe, but 'zero risk'?

What if you get the wrong change?

Fair enough. A non zero risk, at least if I don't check it.

But 1,000 times the risk of a contactless card?

Lootman wrote:

Itsallaguess wrote:

Lootman wrote:
Nothing is safer than cash.

I hand over the cash, I get the item, zero risk of any more cash being "deducted", "charged", debited" or otherwise fraudulently extracted!

I might believe cash is fairly safe, but 'zero risk'?

What if you get the wrong change?

Fair enough. A non zero risk, at least if I don't check it.

But 1,000 times the risk of a contactless card?

Or counterfeit notes in the change.

Lootman wrote:

Itsallaguess wrote:

Lootman wrote:
Nothing is safer than cash.

I hand over the cash, I get the item, zero risk of any more cash being "deducted", "charged", debited" or otherwise fraudulently extracted!

I might believe cash is fairly safe, but 'zero risk'?

What if you get the wrong change?

Fair enough. A non zero risk, at least if I don't check it.

But 1,000 times the risk of a contactless card?

Well as it happens I don't agree with that either, but I was working my way up the thread!



Cheers,

Itsallaguess

AF62 wrote:

Lootman wrote:

Itsallaguess wrote:I might believe cash is fairly safe, but 'zero risk'?

What if you get the wrong change?

Fair enough. A non zero risk, at least if I don't check it.

But 1,000 times the risk of a contactless card?

Or counterfeit notes in the change.

The only businesses that check my notes for being fake are when I pay with a 50.

How do I get a 50 in change?

Lootman wrote:

AF62 wrote:

Lootman wrote:Fair enough. A non zero risk, at least if I don't check it.

But 1,000 times the risk of a contactless card?

Or counterfeit notes in the change.

The only businesses that check my notes for being fake are when I pay with a 50.

How do I get a 50 in change?

But some businesses do check lower values, so it is entirely possible across all the people using cash that some could lose out and end up with a worthless £20.

AF62 wrote:

Lootman wrote:

AF62 wrote:Or counterfeit notes in the change.

The only businesses that check my notes for being fake are when I pay with a 50. How do I get a 50 in change?

But some businesses do check lower values, so it is entirely possible across all the people using cash that some could lose out and end up with a worthless £20.

Only if I pay with a 50, which I never do for an amount less than 30.

Again, where does the "1000 times more risk" derive?

Lootman wrote:

AF62 wrote:

Lootman wrote:The only businesses that check my notes for being fake are when I pay with a 50. How do I get a 50 in change?

But some businesses do check lower values, so it is entirely possible across all the people using cash that some could lose out and end up with a worthless £20.

Only if I pay with a 50, which I never do for an amount less than 30.

So you could end up with a fake £10, £5, £2, £1, 50p, 10p, 20p, 5p, 2p, or 1p.

AF62 wrote:

Lootman wrote:

AF62 wrote:But some businesses do check lower values, so it is entirely possible across all the people using cash that some could lose out and end up with a worthless £20.

Only if I pay with a 50, which I never do for an amount less than 30.

So you could end up with a fake £10, £5, £2, £1, 50p, 10p, 20p, 5p, 2p, or 1p.

So you agree with me that it is nowhere near 1000 times?

When was the last time somebody forged a 1p coin?

Lootman wrote:

AF62 wrote:

Lootman wrote:Only if I pay with a 50, which I never do for an amount less than 30.

So you could end up with a fake £10, £5, £2, £1, 50p, 10p, 20p, 5p, 2p, or 1p.

So you agree with me that it is nowhere near 1000 times?

I don't know (the 1000 times wasn't me), but I have never experienced any fraud from using cards but I have been short-changed when paying in cash and received counterfeit notes and coins.

So to me cash is far more risky than cards.

Lootman wrote:When was the last time somebody forged a 1p coin?

Perhaps they are very good at it and nobody checks their pennies so they don't get spotted - joking (although if memory serves me correctly, doesn't it cost more than 1p to make a 1p).

AF62 wrote:

Lootman wrote:

AF62 wrote:So you could end up with a fake £10, £5, £2, £1, 50p, 10p, 20p, 5p, 2p, or 1p.

So you agree with me that it is nowhere near 1000 times?

I don't know (the 1000 times wasn't me), but I have never experienced any fraud from using cards but I have been short-changed when paying in cash and received counterfeit notes and coins. So to me cash is far more risky than cards.

Lootman wrote:When was the last time somebody forged a 1p coin?

Perhaps they are very good at it and nobody checks their pennies so they don't get spotted - joking (although if memory serves me correctly, doesn't it cost more than 1p to make a 1p).

OK, so you do not know where the 1,000 number comes from and you are not aware of any forgery on the scale suggested?

The biggest risk with cash is that you lose it, or have it stolen.

Mel

...and does lining one`s wallet with aluminium foil prevent criminals stealing data without one knowing or is that just an urban myth?

marronier wrote:...and does lining one`s wallet with aluminium foil prevent criminals stealing data without one knowing or is that just an urban myth?

Such a construction is a "Faraday cage". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage
In order to work properly, it has to be earthed. Otherwise it simply acts as a big retransmission aerial to the devices inside. It might help, a bit, but it is a poor solution, to problem which is non-existent anyway. Since, as I have pointed out, such transactions would all be detectable and reversible. Dead easy for the authorities to track down the perpetrators of such a crime. AT LEAST 1,000 times easier than tracing stolen cash.

Gryff

In order to work properly, it has to be earthed.

No, it doesn't. I work in a place where we use cards to enter some buildings. I have experimented with bank cards, and the reader beeps but does not recognise the card, obviously!

It is quite easy, using a small piece of aluminium foil, to find the part that makes it 'beep'. If you make a small cut in the card, you severe the antenna and destroy the contactless function. Aluminium foil completely blocks the signal. Try it yourself on any RFID reader.

Dead easy for the authorities to track down the perpetrators of such a crime.

So why do we always hear of people having money taken from their account and the bank cannot do anything?? I know two people who will never use contactless because the same amount was taken twice within seconds, but they didn't realise for a long time.

Using a PIN takes only a few seconds more and is much safer.


Steve