The Lemon Fool

I attended the local branch to make a series of payments to another bank.
The same amount repeated times.
The first was done
the second was done
the third was refused.
I was told that I could not make any more.
I argued the toss and the manager appeared and told me that it was correct and she had told the teller to not carry out my instructions.
So now as well as not being able to do this online, I can't even do it at the branch.
After I had pointed out that these were entirely legal trxns from adequate funds the manager relented somewhat and said I could make another 18 trxns -- BUT ON THIS OCCASION ONLY
I would like to know if she had the authority to refuse to carry out my instructions and as long as each trxn conformed to limits (each trxn was for a four figure sum so not exactly trivial) and even further, whether the bank itself would be in breach of regulation.
I do not see how they can given themselves this authority

I'd suggest reading and printing the T's & C's of your account. Those are the contract you have and will include any constraints, such as maximum withdrawals per day etc.

If you can't find anything in them, then have them with you next visit and when the manager joins the party, ask them to point out which clause in the contract is applicable.

the fact that you got an "OK, just this one time" result suggests they were making it up on the fly: if it had been money laundering rules, they'd be in trouble if they knowingly breached bank policy (but do research whether there are "fuzzy rules" that allow managers some leeway!)

You may also wish to write a formal complaint, as that should give you a written position from the bank, again, useful for the next event if in your favour!

VRD

I suspect the end result might be that Santander decides if you are the sort of person taking up counter time putting through twenty one(!) transfer requests to another bank that they are not the bank for you and might invite you to take your custom elsewhere (perhaps the other bank where you are transferring money) before closing your account.

T&C s allow for the Money laundering rules. Bank has considerable discretion around interpretation and what it will allow routinely. Once you start moving sums above about £20k alarms start going off. OP should simply have asked first in anticipation of this difficulty.

I discovered the hard way that my bank has a 10k limit for online payments . . .

According to the Santander T&Cs they apply the Faster Payments scheme limits - which is £100K per transaction. (Some banks have their own lower limits).

Were you transferring more than £210K????

[quote= I'd suggest reading and printing the T's & C's of your account. Those are the contract you have and will include any constraints, such as maximum withdrawals per day etc.VRD[/quote]

Extract:
https://retail.santander.co.uk/Estatico ... Q_RBS.html
https://retail.santander.co.uk/Estatico ... on/Html/...

Which transactions require OTP?
You will NOT need to enter an OTP for the majority of most commonly used online banking transactions. For example, you won't need to use OTP to log on, make a payment to someone you've paid before or to view your balance or transactions. You will need to use OTP for high security transactions such as making a payment to a new recipient, to change your address or to order a new debit card PIN.

How do I use One Time Passcode if I do not have mobile phone coverage?
OTP can only be used in conjunction with a registered mobile phone with network coverage. However, don't forget that the majority of commonly used online banking transactions do not require OTP. If you do not wish to use a mobile phone then you can still make a payment to a new recipient using your branch or telephone banking service. Once a new recipient is set up, subsequent payments to that recipient can be made online without OTP.

It is this that S are not conforming to

gnawsome wrote:I attended the local branch to make a series of payments to another bank.
The same amount repeated times.

And to the same third party account?

Whatever the T&Cs say they can decide if they want you as a customer and by causing queues at the counter by putting through twenty one transactions they might decide they do not, especially if it is to be a regular occurrence.

GrandOiseau wrote:

gnawsome wrote:
I attended the local branch to make a series of payments to another bank.

The same amount repeated times.

And to the same third party account?

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only person intrigued into finding some more details to this story.

Is this something to do with gaining some sort of monetary 'reward', as in some savings-accounts that need '£xxxx paid in per month' to qualify for some regular cash payment or interest-rate?

I have a feeling that the banks 'reasonableness' position might be better judged if we knew a few more details, perhaps?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

VRDiver wrote: I'd suggest reading and printing the T's & C's of your account. Those are the contract you have and will include any constraints, such as maximum withdrawals per day etc.VRD

gnawsome wrote:Extract:
https://retail.santander.co.uk/Estatico ... Q_RBS.html
https://retail.santander.co.uk/Estatico ... on/Html/...

[b]Which transactions require OTP?

I can't immediately see the link between OTP and Santander declining to process multiple 1k+ transactions in branch. The T&Cs for all accounts ( https://goo.gl/PyKGFk ) Section 2A, Para 6.6 is probably what is going on here. Edited down:

We can refuse any withdrawal or payment from your account, if
g) it exceeds any transactional limits that we apply.
If we refuse to allow a withdrawal or payment from your account,
we will tell you the following by the end of the next Working Day
after the day we receive your withdrawal or payment request:
(i) that we have done so;
(ii) the reason why we refused

The only other interesting comment is from the Faster Payments service ( who list Santander's limits as 25K online/ 100K in branch for a single transaction ) because they say If you are planning on sending multiple high-value payments, then please contact your service provider to ensure you don't exceed any daily limits that have been set. ( http://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/about- ... ransaction )

You are breaking some internal limit that Santander have, but you should be able to get them to tell what they object to. I suspect that from a risk audit PoV what you are doing is a nightmare, and if you insist on continuing to force the issue, they'll close your account as the line of least resistance.

20+ transactions of a 4 figure sum done immediately one after another from a non-business account would get red flagged left, right and centre. Frankly, if you don't see why banks would halt this fairly quickly then you can't be reading the news!

I'd still be curious though as to what reason the teller and manager specifically gave you? I find it hard to believe that they just said they could not do it. Or what they did to override the system?

GrandOiseau wrote:20+ transactions of a 4 figure sum done immediately one after another from a non-business account would get red flagged left, right and centre.

I had a large sum as a PCLS (Pension Commencement Lump Sum) from a pension fund. I used it to reinvest in shares. I did drip feed it across to the stock platform over a couple of months, but none of the transfers were ever queried. Perhaps it helped that if you looked at the transactions with any degree of financial understanding, it was fairly obvious what was happening. I didn't even get a suggestion that I should meet their in house financial adviser.

This wasn't Santander though.

Replies to TLF Santander strikes again PLUS

157534 VRDiver
I'd suggest reading and printing the T's & C's of your account. Those are the contract you have and will include any constraints, such as maximum withdrawals per day etc.
That S are breaking

(but do research whether there are "fuzzy rules" that allow managers some leeway!)
'Fuzzy rules', they do exist – using the the word 'may' as indicating an occasional variation that is in fact invariable.

You may also wish to write a formal complaint, as that should give you a written position from the bank, again, useful for the next event if in your favour!
Formal complaint ongoing for months
Also lodged with the Ombudsman who found for S on the basis that;
I think any extra security a business puts in place is a good thing, but I also understand that some customers might not want to bank this way.
I think that is a completely wrongheaded excuse for anything – that the end justifies the means.
The more so in that it ignores that S is in breach of its own Ts&Cs

157539 AF62
might invite you to take your custom elsewhere (perhaps the other bank where you are transferring money) before closing your account.
Yes indeed they might do that – and I would seek publicity of that event with the reason for it.
Namely that I do not want to be forced to have a mobile phone to provide their security

157545 Watis » August 6th, 2018, 5:06 pm
I discovered the hard way that my bank has a 10k limit for online payments . .
Isn't that per trxn


157722
Postby GrandOiseau
And to the same third party account?
Yes

157737
Postby AF62
Whatever the T&Cs say they can decide if they want you as a customer and by causing queues at the counter by putting through twenty one transactions they might decide they do not, especially if it is to be a regular occurrence.
Until that happens they ought to abide by their Ts&Cs – as published on their website and as refd above. I will be interested to discover how their governing body views this.

157744
Postby Itsallaguess

Is this something to do with gaining some sort of monetary 'reward', as in some savings-accounts that need '£xxxx paid in per month' to qualify for some regular cash payment or interest-rate
No.
It really is all about my resistance to being forced to have a registered mobile phone number for OTP.
Plus the fact that S refuse to adhere to THEIR Ts&Cs as referred to above
Which transactions require OTP?
You will NOT need to enter an OTP for the majority of most commonly used online banking transactions. For example, you won't need to use OTP to log on, make a payment to someone you've paid before or to view your balance or transactions. You will need to use OTP for high security transactions such as making a payment to a new recipient, to change your address or to order a new debit card PIN.
How do I use One Time Passcode if I do not have mobile phone coverage?
OTP can only be used in conjunction with a registered mobile phone with network coverage. However, don't forget that the majority of commonly used online banking transactions do not require OTP. If you do not wish to use a mobile phone then you can still make a payment to a new recipient using your branch or telephone banking service. Once a new recipient is set up, subsequent payments to that recipient can be made online without OTP.

That seems to me to be quite be definitive but it is not available to me over several months and repeated attempts.

157745
Postby genou

I can't immediately see the link between OTP and Santander declining to process multiple 1k+ transactions in branch.
The only reason I am at the branch to make payments is because S will not adhere to their Ts&Cs as reported above.
It is just as simple as that , THEY HAVE DECIDED I MUST HAVE A MOBILE PHONE – FOR THEIR SECURITY
The reason for the multiple similar payments was to exaggerate their non compliance with their own Ts&Cs.
By any interpretation I should be able to make payments to an established payee from my pc at home but S have decided to force the issue by offering me as much inconvenience as possible
The only other interesting comment is from the Faster Payments service ( who list Santander's limits as 25K online/ 100K in branch for a single transaction ) because they say If you are planning on sending multiple high-value payments, then please contact your service provider to ensure you don't exceed any daily limits that have been set. ( http://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/about- ... ransaction )

You are breaking some internal limit that Santander have, but you should be able to get them to tell what they object to. I suspect that from a risk audit PoV what you are doing is a nightmare, and if you insist on continuing to force the issue, they'll close your account as the line of least resistance.
I have difficuly understanding much of that (my limitations) but I can see no conflict at all between what I was wanting to do and any amount/frequency/time scale as mentioned.

157750
Postby GrandOiseau
20+ transactions of a 4 figure sum done immediately one after another from a non-business account would get red flagged left, right and centre. Frankly, if you don't see why banks would halt this fairly quickly then you can't be reading the news!

I'd still be curious though as to what reason the teller and manager specifically gave you? I find it hard to believe that they just said they could not do it. Or what they did to override the system?

Red flagged OH YES PLEASE. This is a case of bullying plain and simple and I am happy to stand any examination.
The exchange was verbal and I might be unreliable in my recall (another of my personal limitations with which I have to cope) but I remember only that I was told they couldn't accept the instructions and then I was told they could – in this case only.
I have asked the Ombudsman to request any AV security to be preserved.

Honestly mate, IMO you sound like a real pain in the ass customer and I am sure Santander would be delighted to be rid. But sticking to the facts a little here:

The exchange was verbal and I might be unreliable in my recall (another of my personal limitations with which I have to cope) but I remember only that I was told they couldn't accept the instructions and then I was told they could – in this case only.

This is the biggie. There are no facts here. You deem yourself unreliable and can not remember exactly what was said. Surely you questioned why they couldn't accept your instructions? There must have been more to the discussions surely?

THEY HAVE DECIDED I MUST HAVE A MOBILE PHONE – FOR THEIR SECURITY

Nope. It's for your security also. It cuts down on fraudulent transactions which could leave your account temporarly disabled.

20+ transactions for the same amount to the same account at the same time is extremely odd. Can you not see that? And why do you need to do this anyway? Presumably as some sort of stooze?

I do hope that having to divert resources to deal with such uncompromising grievances doesn't lead to Santander raising my account fees again.

I'm having some trouble in understanding exactly how Santander are breaching their T&Cs here.

@OP: Are you saying that they are requiring an OTP for payments to someone you've paid before? It's really not clear from your description that this is what happened.

Or are you saying that this happened, and then you went into the branch and tried to make 20 payments as a protest of some sort?

My personal experience is that I never get asked for an OTP for such an online payment, but I do for setting up a new one. Exactly as they say.

Nope. It's for your security also. It cuts down on fraudulent transactions which could leave your account temporarly disabled.

That may be your view – it may be the majority view - but none of that alters the fact that S are reneging on their published Ts&Cs.
As regards the conversation on branch premises, I supposed that an AV record would have been made. I am happy for it to be produced. It might not be too unusual for an 82yo deafie to be uncertain of what exactly was said in such circumstances. And it would only be 'I said he/she said' anyway.

20+ transactions for the same amount to the same account at the same time is extremely odd. Can you not see that? And why do you need to do this anyway? Presumably as some sort of stooze?

Being 'odd' has the advantage of being undeniable as per their Ts&Cs

OTP can only be used in conjunction with a registered mobile phone with network coverage. However, don't forget that the majority of commonly used online banking transactions do not require OTP. If you do not wish to use a mobile phone then you can still make a payment to a new recipient using your branch or telephone banking service. Once a new recipient is set up, subsequent payments to that recipient can be made online without OTP.
And you cannot see that S should be held to their published Ts&Cs.
None of this would be happening if they had.
No stooze (don't know what that is).
It truly defeats me how you would seek to stand up for an institution that is failing to honour its Ts&Cs on the grounds that I am a real pain in the ass customer (which is not in dispute) being so because of the OBVIOUS breach of Ts&Cs

CryptoPlankton wrote:I do hope that having to divert resources to deal with such uncompromising grievances doesn't lead to Santander raising my account fees again.

I do hope you are not relying on the Ts&Cs as published on S website to give you any protection.
I made that mistake

gnawsome wrote:It truly defeats me how you would seek to stand up for an institution that is failing to honour its Ts&Cs on the grounds that I am a real pain in the ass customer (which is not in dispute) being so because of the OBVIOUS breach of Ts&Cs

You haven't established that they are breaching the T&Cs. I point you again to

We can refuse any withdrawal or payment from your account, if
g) it exceeds any transactional limits that we apply.


and

If we refuse to allow a withdrawal or payment from your account,
we will tell you the following by the end of the next Working Day
after the day we receive your withdrawal or payment request:
(i) that we have done so;
(ii) the reason why we refused

You would be better requesting San to give you their reasons in writing instead of venting on here.