Banking for Eldery Mother - Lloyds etc.

[neversay]

My elderly widowed mother is struggling with her eyesight and sorting her finances is becoming difficult. She has a Lloyds Bank current account and Cash ISA savings in a local building society. The Lloyds Bank is 5 miles away and the building society is closing its branch with the nearest one 9 miles away. My parents never trusted online banking and, while my brother lives close, I live 90 miles away which makes helping difficult.

I have paid her expenses from my own account up until now and she occasionally writes me a cheque in return. My brother and I do have health and financial power of attorney and there's absolute trust in administering her affairs. We do need to simplify it though and plan ahead for a time when she can't handle her finances at all. In that respect, I would welcome any thoughts on the best way to organise her affairs. I'm thinking:

1. A move to online banking with Lloyds feels like a priority. The question is whether we sign-up in her name or DAK if banks like Lloyds have an easy way for us to sign-up to online banking with our power of attorney? (particularly as I can't visit her local branches in person)

2. She is vulnerable and very trusting which makes me concerned that she could easily fall victim to a scam. She has some trusted tradespeople and I tend to pay them by bank transfer to ensure scrutiny. However, she does use her Lloyds debit card for shopping which does have access to an £8k or so balance. Are there any ways to avoid fraud, such as applying in her name for a Starling or Monzo style card for her day to day spending?

3. Her savings are mostly in Building Society ISAs following my father's death a couple of years ago. The balance is low six-figures and inheritance tax isn't an issue. I did open an NS&I account for her with the view to moving her savings over, but naturally, NS&I has since dropped the rates and had short-term customer service issues. I'm still inclined to move it over to NS&I for safety and future easy access for convenience as it isn't worth chasing rates. Her income and savings are not enough for her to pay tax on savings though so losing her ISA wrappers wouldn't make a huge difference. Is this wise?

Naturally people here would move some savings into other investments given the zero rates but she is very cautious and a big worrier. Given her current state of health and mind, it seems sense to just make life simple and consolidate affairs for the time being. We would welcome any thoughts and experiences from the experts here.

[Howard]

We have online banking with Lloyds and I would imagine that it is possible to add online banking to your Mother's account. If you have the log in details and password as well, you can, in effect run the account. Obviously it's worth agreeing this with your brother as well as your Mother.

Mrs H (who is quite capable but bored with finance) has several online investment accounts which I run in this way.

In the past we did this with an elderly parent and it worked very well. We kept the other member of the family in touch with transactions. In this case the amounts were relatively small apart from payments for rates, heating etc. I guess this is the case with your Mother?

Hope this is helpful.

regards

Howard

[neversay]

Thanks @Howard. Yes, the week to week sums are small and the usual suspects are on direct debit. I keep a shared log on a google sheet but the sums accumulate and she is starting to struggle to comprehend why she wrote a cheque for several hundred pounds. Today she was struggling to write a cheque due to her poor eyesight.

I will try contacting Lloyds to see what they advise and hopefully can use my local branch if they need to do any verification in person.

[scrumpyjack]

I certainly agree an online account in your mother's name, but where you have access (and preferably she does not know the password) is a good idea.

Certainly best if she does not have a debit card. If some other form of being able to make payments is needed, then a card as you suggest is also a good plan - one that cannot go overdrawn and can be kept topped up with a small amount

Utilities etc can be paid by direct debit and you can keep an eye on transactions. Ideally she should not have to carry out any financial transactions and so it would be difficult for someone to scam her.

I did this for my mother for years. All worked fine. My siblings and I also paid her a quarterly standing order so she had no financial worries and structured it as a loan so it would eventually be deductible for IHT. Again that worked well.

Strictly speaking you probably need to let the bank know and have a financial LPA, but I have to admit I never got round to bothering with those technicalities.

[Dod101]

Thanks @Howard. Yes, the week to week sums are small and the usual suspects are on direct debit. I keep a shared log on a google sheet but the sums accumulate and she is starting to struggle to comprehend why she wrote a cheque for several hundred pounds. Today she was struggling to write a cheque due to her poor eyesight.

I will try contacting Lloyds to see what they advise and hopefully can use my local branch if they need to do any verification in person.

Were I you I would consult the bank only as a last resort. What I think Howard is suggesting is just convert the current account into online banking without using the P of A and I would advocate that if you can. You may be able to do this online. Then just operate the account as though it is your mother doing so. Involving the P of A complicates things and some banks will not allow you to use a P of A combined with online banking so I would advise you to think very carefully about it all.

Dod

[Howard]

Thanks @Howard. Yes, the week to week sums are small and the usual suspects are on direct debit. I keep a shared log on a google sheet but the sums accumulate and she is starting to struggle to comprehend why she wrote a cheque for several hundred pounds. Today she was struggling to write a cheque due to her poor eyesight.

I will try contacting Lloyds to see what they advise and hopefully can use my local branch if they need to do any verification in person.

Were I you I would consult the bank only as a last resort. What I think Howard is suggesting is just convert the current account into online banking without using the P of A and I would advocate that if you can. You may be able to do this online. Then just operate the account as though it is your mother doing so. Involving the P of A complicates things and some banks will not allow you to use a P of A combined with online banking so I would advise you to think very carefully about it all.

Dod

Yes, I agree entirely. What I didn't say in my original post is that the bank was the least helpful part of the process. I'd guess if you ask them, they will make you jump through hoops!

regards

Howard

[stevensfo]

Just a thought, but you could consider something like Monzo or Revolut, but download the app onto 'your' phone when setting it up. You can then keep a minimum balance on her card, see instantly when it's used, top it up from the app (usually very fast) and have full control.


Steve

[neversay]

Were I you I would consult the bank only as a last resort. What I think Howard is suggesting is just convert the current account into online banking without using the P of A and I would advocate that if you can. You may be able to do this online. Then just operate the account as though it is your mother doing so. Involving the P of A complicates things and some banks will not allow you to use a P of A combined with online banking so I would advise you to think very carefully about it all.

Dod/Howard - that's the right answer to my poorly worded question . It's no problem doing the online banking in her name and my brother and I using the log-on information. Thanks.

Yes, I agree entirely. What I didn't say in my original post is that the bank was the least helpful part of the process. I'd guess if you ask them, they will make you jump through hoops!

That was in the back of my mind when I asked here rather than at the bank directly. I must confess to a real aversion to talking to '''customer service''' at any of these institutions these days.

Just a thought, but you could consider something like Monzo or Revolut, but download the app onto 'your' phone when setting it up. You can then keep a minimum balance on her card, see instantly when it's used, top it up from the app (usually very fast) and have full control. Steve

Thanks Steve. That's a good solution, although I already have Starling, Monzo and Revolut accounts of my own on my device (I use them to varying degrees for different categories of spending like online purchases/subscriptions or day to day expenses). I must check if any of them allow you to easily switch between different user accounts. I will also need to be with her to set it up as I think they require you to record a video and scan some id if I recall correctly.

I'm very grateful for all your kind advice.

[JohnB]

Invoking a PoA requires an assertion of loss of capacity, and I think the bank could correctly query why you mother still had access to a debit card. I'd apply for online banking as if it were her not to complicate things. I find with many organisations that if I ring them and go through security, explain I am Mums son and hand her the phone to quaver a confirmation, they will put a note on the account and allow me to negotiate on her behalf in future. I've done this for her Nationwide account, don't think I have for her Lloyds one. Of course if you use online secure messaging no-one knows you are a dog...

If Lloyds find out, then is the time to wave the PoA.

[neversay]

Invoking a PoA requires an assertion of loss of capacity, and I think the bank could correctly query why you mother still had access to a debit card. I'd apply for online banking as if it were her not to complicate things. I find with many organisations that if I ring them and go through security, explain I am Mums son and hand her the phone to quaver a confirmation, they will put a note on the account and allow me to negotiate on her behalf in future. I've done this for her Nationwide account, don't think I have for her Lloyds one. Of course if you use online secure messaging no-one knows you are a dog...

Thanks. It looks relatively simple to register (https://www.lloydsbank.com/online-banki ... ister.html) but they do a security check phone call which means either I or my brother will have to be with her to sort it.

[pochisoldi]

Invoking a PoA requires an assertion of loss of capacity, and I think the bank could correctly query why you mother still had access to a debit card. I'd apply for online banking as if it were her not to complicate things. I find with many organisations that if I ring them and go through security, explain I am Mums son and hand her the phone to quaver a confirmation, they will put a note on the account and allow me to negotiate on her behalf in future. I've done this for her Nationwide account, don't think I have for her Lloyds one. Of course if you use online secure messaging no-one knows you are a dog...

If Lloyds find out, then is the time to wave the PoA.

Some clarification is required here, as PoA can have several meanings:

A "general power of attorney" is a document which permits someone to "act as someone's attorney" - to do something on some else's behalf.
Typical uses are to sell a property when the owner is out of the country, or (in my case years ago, pre-internet banking), to allow my mother to manage my bank account whilst I was working abroad.
This is signed whilst the donor has capacity, and ceases to have effect if/when the donor loses capacity.
It may also regain effect if the donor regains capacity.
There may be some circumstances where an LPA and a general power may exist in parallel. if the donor has sufficient capacity to understand and agree to the general power. (the general idea is to let donors who have partial capacity to exercise it). One example of such a scenario is where the donor can't remember their grandchildrens names or faces or where they slept last night, but can tell you exactly what their current shareholdings are.

A "Lasting power of attorney" (usually abbreviated to LPA) kicks in when capacity is lost.

An "Enduring power of attorney" can't be executed anymore (replaced by LPA), but an existing one will still be valid. Again, this kicks in if capacity is lost.

[stevensfo]

Invoking a PoA requires an assertion of loss of capacity, and I think the bank could correctly query why you mother still had access to a debit card. I'd apply for online banking as if it were her not to complicate things. I find with many organisations that if I ring them and go through security, explain I am Mums son and hand her the phone to quaver a confirmation, they will put a note on the account and allow me to negotiate on her behalf in future. I've done this for her Nationwide account, don't think I have for her Lloyds one. Of course if you use online secure messaging no-one knows you are a dog...

If Lloyds find out, then is the time to wave the PoA.

Some clarification is required here, as PoA can have several meanings:

A "general power of attorney" is a document which permits someone to "act as someone's attorney" - to do something on some else's behalf.
Typical uses are to sell a property when the owner is out of the country, or (in my case years ago, pre-internet banking), to allow my mother to manage my bank account whilst I was working abroad.
This is signed whilst the donor has capacity, and ceases to have effect if/when the donor loses capacity.
It may also regain effect if the donor regains capacity.
There may be some circumstances where an LPA and a general power may exist in parallel. if the donor has sufficient capacity to understand and agree to the general power. (the general idea is to let donors who have partial capacity to exercise it). One example of such a scenario is where the donor can't remember their grandchildrens names or faces or where they slept last night, but can tell you exactly what their current shareholdings are.

A "Lasting power of attorney" (usually abbreviated to LPA) kicks in when capacity is lost.

An "Enduring power of attorney" can't be executed anymore (replaced by LPA), but an existing one will still be valid. Again, this kicks in if capacity is lost.

One example of such a scenario is where the donor can't remember their grandchildrens names or faces or where they slept last night, but can tell you exactly what their current shareholdings are.

So most members of TMF and TLF?

Steve

[Chrysalis]

Invoking a PoA requires an assertion of loss of capacity, and I think the bank could correctly query why you mother still had access to a debit card. I'd apply for online banking as if it were her not to complicate things. I find with many organisations that if I ring them and go through security, explain I am Mums son and hand her the phone to quaver a confirmation, they will put a note on the account and allow me to negotiate on her behalf in future. I've done this for her Nationwide account, don't think I have for her Lloyds one. Of course if you use online secure messaging no-one knows you are a dog...

If Lloyds find out, then is the time to wave the PoA.

No, that’s not the case with lasting power of attorney for finance and property. It was the case for enduring power of attorney, but with the newer LPA as long as it is registered it can be used, and there’s no implication that the donor has lost capacity. So you can in fact manage affairs ‘in tandem’. This works well where the donor wants to continue making transactions but the attorney wants to ‘keep an eye’ on transactions remotely and set up payments where necessary. I did it like this for my dad until he died.

[Chrysalis]

See here for example under LPA: ‘you don’t have to wait for someone to lose mental capacity before it can be used’

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/famil ... eone-else/

[Wuffle]

neversay,

I have just gone through the hoops under broadly similar circumstances, as has a sibling (separate, individual meetings to set up in each name).
Barclays in this case, where the existing accounts were.
It seems to have gone smoothly.
One question asked in the meeting (in person at branch) was 'should the (lasting) POA control be instead of or as well as?'
Extra debit cards in my name (indicated POA) and telephone and internet banking access have been forwarded but I haven't actually used them yet.
It just seems to be a case of removing control from the original holder as and when.
It was just a tick-box on the form I filled in.
It was not their first rodeo.
I learned a lot.

Hope that helps.

W.

[neversay]

Thanks Wuffle. It's helpful to hear your experience and that there's a sensible pathway. This year has made this type of issue slightly more challenging and stressful than normal times (if I remember what they are like!).

The LPA guidance is very helpful too and a good reminder that it is better to get this addressed sooner rather than later.

[Maylix]

1. A move to online banking with Lloyds feels like a priority. The question is whether we sign-up in her name or DAK if banks like Lloyds have an easy way for us to sign-up to online banking with our power of attorney? (particularly as I can't visit her local branches in person)

I did what some of the posters are advising you to do, i.e I got on line access to one of my mum's account as if I was her, and then operated it as if I was her (Technically against the rules from the bank's perspective)
Worked for a while but I ran into the problem of if e.g. I made a mistake in the password 3 times I would get locked out of the account and then it was a palaver getting it unlocked; it would involve either a phone call from my mum which was a pain because she didn't know all the security answers, or it would involve a visit to a branch with id documentation which was difficult for her anyway.

After this happened a couple of times what I did was to convert her account to a joint account with me as the other account holder. Then I applied for online access in my own name, and had a debit card in my own name, so I could operate the account fully and all legal and above board.
This was with Lloyds and the process to change from sole to joint account consisted of making an appointment with (any) branch and then her and I turned up there with the usual id and poof of address documents. The meeting lasted about 45 minutes but only about 15 minutes of that was us filling out forms and the rest of the time was the cust svs person doing their thing on the pc. So yes the meeting was inconvenient , but it was a one off and I'm so glad I did it.
HTH
Maylix

[Howard]

1. A move to online banking with Lloyds feels like a priority. The question is whether we sign-up in her name or DAK if banks like Lloyds have an easy way for us to sign-up to online banking with our power of attorney? (particularly as I can't visit her local branches in person)

I did what some of the posters are advising you to do, i.e I got on line access to one of my mum's account as if I was her, and then operated it as if I was her (Technically against the rules from the bank's perspective)
Worked for a while but I ran into the problem of if e.g. I made a mistake in the password 3 times I would get locked out of the account and then it was a palaver getting it unlocked; it would involve either a phone call from my mum which was a pain because she didn't know all the security answers, or it would involve a visit to a branch with id documentation which was difficult for her anyway.

After this happened a couple of times what I did was to convert her account to a joint account with me as the other account holder. Then I applied for online access in my own name, and had a debit card in my own name, so I could operate the account fully and all legal and above board.
This was with Lloyds and the process to change from sole to joint account consisted of making an appointment with (any) branch and then her and I turned up there with the usual id and poof of address documents. The meeting lasted about 45 minutes but only about 15 minutes of that was us filling out forms and the rest of the time was the cust svs person doing their thing on the pc. So yes the meeting was inconvenient , but it was a one off and I'm so glad I did it.
HTH
Maylix

Well done! Sadly it won't get easier to handle this type of situation. I'm sure you will be pleased in retrospect that you took the action now.

regards

Howard

[stevensfo]

1. A move to online banking with Lloyds feels like a priority. The question is whether we sign-up in her name or DAK if banks like Lloyds have an easy way for us to sign-up to online banking with our power of attorney? (particularly as I can't visit her local branches in person)

I did what some of the posters are advising you to do, i.e I got on line access to one of my mum's account as if I was her, and then operated it as if I was her (Technically against the rules from the bank's perspective)
Worked for a while but I ran into the problem of if e.g. I made a mistake in the password 3 times I would get locked out of the account and then it was a palaver getting it unlocked; it would involve either a phone call from my mum which was a pain because she didn't know all the security answers, or it would involve a visit to a branch with id documentation which was difficult for her anyway.

After this happened a couple of times what I did was to convert her account to a joint account with me as the other account holder. Then I applied for online access in my own name, and had a debit card in my own name, so I could operate the account fully and all legal and above board.
This was with Lloyds and the process to change from sole to joint account consisted of making an appointment with (any) branch and then her and I turned up there with the usual id and poof of address documents. The meeting lasted about 45 minutes but only about 15 minutes of that was us filling out forms and the rest of the time was the cust svs person doing their thing on the pc. So yes the meeting was inconvenient , but it was a one off and I'm so glad I did it.
HTH
Maylix

The meeting lasted about 45 minutes but only about 15 minutes of that was us filling out forms and the rest of the time was the cust svs person doing their thing on the pc.

That's what worries me.

Please put confirmation of everything in a letter, joined-up handwriting, signed with blood, and send it recorded/registered/whatever.

I've been there, got the teeshirt etc. 'England' is not that far from 'Eritrea' on a scroll-down list.

Steve

[neversay]

That's what worries me.

Same here. This year my mother has had treatment for cancer, heart failure (AF) and throughout lockdown experiencing declining health and cognitive ability. The thought of subjecting her to a Little Britain 'computer says no' typical UK banking experience is awful at present.

This is what I have in mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOdjCb4LwQY