I am a Digital Exception

[Lootman]

I am not someone who constantly scours the interest rates available on saving accounts. Nor do I switch providers to make a little more here and there. Life is too short. But last week I decided that I wanted to open a new account as I had just withdrawn over 100K in cash from my broker and it needed a home.

I bank with NatWest and did not expect them to have a competitive interest rate. But a one-year fixed term with them was offering 5%, which is decent. (It is 13 months and not 12 after reading the small print, but whatever).

So I trundle along to my local NatWest branch, where I conduct all my business. I am directed to a nice man who agrees with me that this is a good deal. (He is locked into a 5-year fixed paying 1%, he tells me, so perhaps I should not take advice from him). We talk it through and I am sold. Then:

Clerk: Do you have online banking?
Me: No
Clerk: Do you have phone banking?
Me: No
Do you have the NatWest app on your phone?
Me: Definitely No.
Clerk: Then to open the account you will need to ring this 0800 number and speak to our Digital Exceptions Team.
Me: Wait. You have a unit dedicated to people who prefer to do business in person, whom you consider to be "exceptions"?
Clerk: Yes.
Me: So can I not just open an account here?
Clerk: No.
Me: So a person cannot walk into a bank and open a bank account any more?
Clerk: Correct.
Me: Thank you, I will think about it.

I then stroll over to the branch of a well known building society nearby, with whom I have no prior connection. They have paper brochures that I can look at and touch and feel and read. I can apply for an account there and then, on paper and in ink, and hand it over to the clerk with my cheque (and assorted ID). The account is then open and, joy of joys, they will send me a proper old-school passbook through the post! I have died and gone to heaven.

Bingo. Done. So at least for now us digital exceptions can still get what we want. But for how long?

[Gerry557]

Banking online is simple and easy

If you have devices.

So maybe you are an exception. Next you will be telling us you make phone calls and actually talk to people.

Phones aren't for that these days.

[Redmires]

Well done. Some establishments dont seem to want our business anymore. I was ranting today when the parking machine was out of order and i had to pay by telephone (as i refuse to download apps). No human contact of course, just a robotic voice who took 9 minutes to do the £3 transaction. I won't be parking there again.

[AF62]

Clerk: Then to open the account you will need to ring this 0800 number and speak to our Digital Exceptions Team.
Me: Wait. You have a unit dedicated to people who prefer to do business in person, whom you consider to be "exceptions"?
Clerk: Yes.
Me: So can I not just open an account here?
Clerk: No.
Me: So a person cannot walk into a bank and open a bank account any more?
Clerk: Correct.

Sounds like they just took a business decision.

Providing face to face services is significantly more expensive than online or via an app so centralising the personal service via a phone line minimises those costs in relation to those who actually need it and cannot bank online or via app.

As for those who choose not to use online banking or via phone app…

I then stroll over to the branch of a well known building society nearby…

Ah, you took the hint and minimised NatWest’s costs even further by not using the phone line

[Lootman]

Clerk: Then to open the account you will need to ring this 0800 number and speak to our Digital Exceptions Team.
Me: Wait. You have a unit dedicated to people who prefer to do business in person, whom you consider to be "exceptions"?
Clerk: Yes.
Me: So can I not just open an account here?
Clerk: No.
Me: So a person cannot walk into a bank and open a bank account any more?
Clerk: Correct.

Sounds like they just took a business decision. Providing face to face services is significantly more expensive than online or via an app so centralising the personal service via a phone line minimises those costs in relation to those who actually need it and cannot bank online or via app.

But NatWest had double costs anyway. The cost of the poor clerk in the branch and the cost of the phone team.

Of course there is a market for banks that only operate online or by phone. They save money by not having a branch network. Fair enough. But IF you are going to all the bother and expenses of having an extensive branch network and staffing them, then why disempower those same employees?

The clerk actually said that "I'd love to sell you this account but I cannot". What a soulless job that must be - answering questions but ultimately being powerless to bring in new business.

And it's not as if NatWest is doing well, so this new model of theirs evidently isn't working so far.

Well done. Some establishments don't seem to want our business anymore. I was ranting today when the parking machine was out of order and i had to pay by telephone (as i refuse to download apps). No human contact of course, just a robotic voice who took 9 minutes to do the £3 transaction. I won't be parking there again.

I have always successfully avoided car parking locations that require a phone. The only time I failed was in Edinburgh where they seem obsessed by that idea. But even there I found a multi-storey car park that took cash.

If a critical mass of people resist these things then businesses will never be able to go 100% digital. I am actually keeping these bank workers in a job, if they did but know it.

[AF62]

Sounds like they just took a business decision. Providing face to face services is significantly more expensive than online or via an app so centralising the personal service via a phone line minimises those costs in relation to those who actually need it and cannot bank online or via app.

But NatWest had double costs anyway. The cost of the poor clerk in the branch and the cost of the phone team.

Not really, because the time spent by the branch clerk saying “no” to you was a fraction of the time that would have been spent if they had set up the account.

And as the hurdle of needing to call was too high for you, they didn’t have budget for you calling.

Of course there is a market for banks that only operate online or by phone. They save money by not having a branch network. Fair enough. But IF you are going to all the bother and expenses of having an extensive branch network and staffing them, then why disempower those same employees? it.

Because then it is a short move to closing the branch completely, with them making the argument that it is fine them doing so as nobody uses it.

Exactly what happened to the HSBC branch in my town. It dwindled from a fully functioning branch, to a branch full of machines with someone directing you to them and a single counter open part of the day, to it being closed. And the town I live in is the largest town in the county with a population of 35k with the nearest HSBC now 15 miles away - that’s not exactly a subtle hint that HSBC doesn’t want to provide a face to face service.

And it's not as if NatWest is doing well, so this new model of theirs evidently isn't working so far.

But how are HSBC, Lloyds, Barclays, etc. doing, because they are doing exactly the same thing. And if they are doing well doing that then there is something else wrong with NatWest, not their branch policy.

If a critical mass of people resist these things then businesses will never be able to go 100% digital. I am actually keeping these bank workers in a job, if they did but know it.

Not 100%, but more and more will reduce their non-digital service to those they are obliged to provide it through discrimination legislation, exactly as the government has already done, and the refuseniks will be left high and dry.

[Lootman]

But NatWest had double costs anyway. The cost of the poor clerk in the branch and the cost of the phone team.

Not really, because the time spent by the branch clerk saying “no” to you was a fraction of the time that would have been spent if they had set up the account.

But running a business isn't just about lowering costs. You also have to bring in new customers and revenue. And 100K is a decent chunk of money that would have been theirs but now is not.

My local branch won't be closing. It is always busy with people, including those depositing bags full of coins from their cash business and the rest. The idea isn't so much to have no branches but rather for those branches to spend less time dealing with cash and more time selling ISAs, insurance and all the rest. But if the staff in that branch are not allowed to close those deals, then that is a problem. Any delay or need to contact a third party increases the risk of the customer changing their mind, as I did.

The other reason for using a branch is problem resolution. I consistently get better service on problems when I can sit or stand across from a real person, and work them. It is too easy for a clerk on the phone to blow you off and delay, procrastinate, snow you etc. Or of course you cannot get through or are put "on hold". But in person they can't fob you off so easily. Sometimes it is just a matter of taking their time and you get satisfaction. It's an art form.

[AF62]

Not really, because the time spent by the branch clerk saying “no” to you was a fraction of the time that would have been spent if they had set up the account.

But running a business isn't just about lowering costs. You also have to bring in new customers and revenue. And 100K is a decent chunk of money that would have been theirs but now is not.

They are bringing in new customers, just not customers like you that cost them more to service - even with £100k.

My local branch won't be closing. It is always busy with people, including those depositing bags full of coins from their cash business and the rest.

If you live in a 'cash business' area then you might be lucky and the branch remain open, but most areas are not 'cash business' these days and even so I would question whether banks actually want to be bothered to staff a branch to deal with people depositing bags of coins as it likely costs them far more than they can charge for the service.

The idea isn't so much to have no branches but rather for those branches to spend less time dealing with cash and more time selling ISAs, insurance and all the rest.

That's what HSBC said - until it closed the branch.

The other reason for using a branch is problem resolution. I consistently get better service on problems when I can sit or stand across from a real person, and work them. It is too easy for a clerk on the phone to blow you off and delay, procrastinate, snow you etc. Or of course you cannot get through or are put "on hold". But in person they can't fob you off so easily. Sometimes it is just a matter of taking their time and you get satisfaction. It's an art form.

That's your need, not the bank's. They would far prefer to have a problem resolution system where people don't bother and go away, so that isn't going to encourage them to keep branches open.

[Lootman]

The idea isn't so much to have no branches but rather for those branches to spend less time dealing with cash and more time selling ISAs, insurance and all the rest.

That's what HSBC said - until it closed the branch.

But by your own admission you are in a small town where there are probably not enough people to sustain a branch. Certainly not enough with the kind of money that justifies personal service.

My branch recently had an expensive remodel, which indicates to me that banks are investing in their high-value locations, and pushing everyone else to a second-tier service. My criticism of them is not for that, but rather that having changed the branch into a large flashy sales area with a token cashier doing the real business, they have simultaneously disempowered those same sales staff.

I really don't care who gets this 100K. The folks in the building society were very friendly and helpful. The NWB guy was nice too but it was like he was selling with his hands tied behind his back.

[scrumpyjack]

I can’t remember when I last went into a bank – many many years ago. I suspect most bank branches are completely uneconomic and banks will have to close them if they are to survive and compete with the digital startups that don’t have the baggage of overheads the traditional banks have. It is only through such change that the economy becomes more efficient and the general standard of living rises.

Sorry Looty but you’d better get into the modern age!

[didds]

My 2p...

leaving aside [personal frustrations etc, all NW are doing is this regard, as opined by others, is deciding which business they see they want to handle. In the OPs example, its the same as a painter quoting a ridiculously high price for a job, or outright declining it, because for that painter the job doesn't fit what they want to handle. Its just a business decision, based on whatever parameters known only to them. I suppose we can pontificate that they just lost 100K to handle ... but for every 100K account I wonder if there are also dozens/hundreds of £100 accounts that they just aren't interested in.

I understand lootman's frustration. But it is what it is. It only becomes a problem when nobody will open a new account, anywhere.

[Lootman]

I can’t remember when I last went into a bank – many many years ago. I suspect most bank branches are completely uneconomic and banks will have to close them if they are to survive and compete with the digital startups that don’t have the baggage of overheads the traditional banks have. It is only through such change that the economy becomes more efficient and the general standard of living rises.

Sorry Looty but you’d better get into the modern age!

Well, that was basically the point of my original post!

What I am seeing is more of a two-tier service. Cattle class banking for the masses and a more bespoke personal service for those with the big bucks. (Not that 100K is that much in the grand scheme of things, but it's not nothing either).

Speaking of HSBC, as AF62 was, I also started an account with them 5 years ago. I qualified for "Premier Banking" which has no fee so I thought I would try it. For the first year or two it was great - a dedicated area for Premier customers where they welcomed you, offered you coffee and gave you special attention and service. All well and good.

Then Covid came along and that all ended. Fair enough but now that Covid is not an issue any more, HSBC have not reinstated any of the "Premier" space or service. It is virtually unstaffed. You have to talk to one of the clerks "downstairs" and they usually just tell you to "ring the 0800 number". Useless.

Not the only business to weaponise Covid of course. But HSBC is next for the chopping black.

[AF62]

My branch recently had an expensive remodel, which indicates to me that banks are investing in their high-value locations, and pushing everyone else to a second-tier service. My criticism of them is not for that, but rather that having changed the branch into a large flashy sales area with a token cashier doing the real business, they have simultaneously disempowered those same sales staff.

Although as you have found out, they might have invested in an expensive remodel but that doesn't mean that they actually want to provide any services to most customers - including you

Obviously £100k doesn't cut it to get personal service in your 'bright and shiny' branch (that is as useless as the one that no longer exists in my town) and I wonder how much is needed before you do get to experience them rolling out the red carpet.

but for every 100K account I wonder if there are also dozens/hundreds of £100 accounts that they just aren't interested in.

On the couple of occasions I needed to go into a Lloyds bank branch last year to sort out my deceased mother's account, it seemed to me that the only customers they were dealing with were the elderly, the poor, and those who didn't have English as a first language. An awful lot of staff time being spent on very low rewards for the bank.

Speaking of HSBC, as AF62 was, I also started an account with them 5 years ago. I qualified for "Premier Banking" which has no fee so I thought I would try it. For the first year or two it was great - a dedicated area for Premier customers where they welcomed you, offered you coffee and gave you special attention and service. All well and good.

Then Covid came along and that all ended. Fair enough but now that Covid is not an issue any more, HSBC have not reinstated any of the "Premier" space or service. It is virtually unstaffed. You have to talk to one of the clerks "downstairs" and they usually just tell you to "ring the 0800 number". Useless.

Not the only business to weaponise Covid of course. But HSBC is next for the chopping black.

That's part of my interaction with HSBC as well, via their "Premier Banking" purely for the free travel insurance. Theoretically their call centres have dedicated "Premier Banking" teams to provide a better level of service than standard, but it is still pretty rubbish.

My main dealing with HSBC is with First Direct, who have been pretty flawless over the last thirty years, but then they are phone, online and app based with no branches...

[didds]

On the couple of occasions I needed to go into a Lloyds bank branch last year to sort out my deceased mother's account, it seemed to me that the only customers they were dealing with were the elderly, the poor, and those who didn't have English as a first language. An awful lot of staff time being spent on very low rewards for the bank.

But that's Lloyds, not NW. Maybe they just have a different business model/plan?

didds

[88V8]

Providing face to face services is significantly more expensive than online or via an app so centralising the personal service via a phone line minimises those costs in relation to those who actually need it and cannot bank online or via app.

We, or rather my wife, use NW online banking. Last year we needed to transfer more than our daily limit so we had to ... go to a branch. Fortunately there is one five miles away.

But I have to admit we hardly ever visit a branch. Surely the answer is that the banks must combine in local hubs where
they can all be represented at minimal cost, but one can just imagine the difficulties of setting that up.

I was ranting today when the parking machine was out of order and i had to pay by telephone (as i refuse to download apps). No human contact of course, just a robotic voice who took 9 minutes to do the £3 transaction. I won't be parking there again.

I have always successfully avoided car parking locations that require a phone. The only time I failed was in Edinburgh where they seem obsessed by that idea. But even there I found a multi-storey car park that took cash.

So far we have avoided non-cash car parks. Our local takes card or cash. In Ulverston we once had to pay by text, that wasn't too bad.
If the parking provider posts an address I suppose one could send them a cheque, but I bet they'd still try to fine you.

V8

[didds]

My main dealing with HSBC is with First Direct, who have been pretty flawless over the last thirty years, but then they are phone, online and app based with no branches...

true they don't - per se.

But they do have HSBC branches and as a FD customer for a few decades there is no effective difference. Not that I like attending my local HSBC branch...

this is a blog piece I wrote years ago and is still as valid today...

https://almost-middle-aged-musings.blog ... aking.html


didds

[AF62]

On the couple of occasions I needed to go into a Lloyds bank branch last year to sort out my deceased mother's account, it seemed to me that the only customers they were dealing with were the elderly, the poor, and those who didn't have English as a first language. An awful lot of staff time being spent on very low rewards for the bank.

But that's Lloyds, not NW. Maybe they just have a different business model/plan?

Maybe they do, but I rather doubt it.

My main dealing with HSBC is with First Direct, who have been pretty flawless over the last thirty years, but then they are phone, online and app based with no branches...

true they don't - per se.

But they do have HSBC branches and as a FD customer for a few decades there is no effective difference. Not that I like attending my local HSBC branch...

this is a blog piece I wrote years ago and is still as valid today...

https://almost-middle-aged-musings.blog ... aking.html

Although of course you can now pay in cheques via their app and not suffer the 'Nigel Farage' queues (good grief, when was the last time I received a cheque...), not that would solve the problem for some who are "Digital Exceptions"

[Lootman]

My branch recently had an expensive remodel, which indicates to me that banks are investing in their high-value locations, and pushing everyone else to a second-tier service. My criticism of them is not for that, but rather that having changed the branch into a large flashy sales area with a token cashier doing the real business, they have simultaneously disempowered those same sales staff.

Although as you have found out, they might have invested in an expensive remodel but that doesn't mean that they actually want to provide any services to most customers - including you

I think you are missing the point. NWB did not "reject" my business at all. The guy in the branch spent a good deal of time trying to secure it. Rather it was their procedures that cost them the sale. Had I rang that number or gone online, they would have been very happy to open the account.

Obviously £100k doesn't cut it to get personal service in your 'bright and shiny' branch (that is as useless as the one that no longer exists in my town) and I wonder how much is needed before you do get to experience them rolling out the red carpet.

I have an idea "how much". A few years ago I had a windfall half-million or so land in my NWB current account by wire transfer. Within an hour a "Regional Relationship Banking Liaison Officer (or some such titular nonsense) was on the phone to me, offering that I visit her in her office (not at a branch) to discuss "wealth planning".

No doubt she could open an account for me.

Not that I like attending my local HSBC branch...

this is a blog piece I wrote years ago and is still as valid today...

https://almost-middle-aged-musings.blog ... aking.html

The one time I completely lost it in a bank was at the Birmingham New Street branch of NatWest. I needed more cash than the machine would give me, and in large denominations, and so I got in the queue to see the one cashier. And of course there is someone in front of me who cannot speak English taking forever.

But there were half a dozen staff sitting around doing nothing who would presumably spring into action if I said I wanted to buy life insurance, but who otherwise were inert.

I decided to give up and go to the HSBC next door, which thankfully was much better. But not before I gave those staff an earful of verbal abuse for sitting around doing nothing whilst the queue at the cashier snaked around the branch.

Perhaps not my finest moment but I felt better afterwards.

[AF62]

Although as you have found out, they might have invested in an expensive remodel but that doesn't mean that they actually want to provide any services to most customers - including you

I think you are missing the point. NWB did not "reject" my business at all. The guy in the branch spent a good deal of time trying to secure it. Rather it was their procedures that cost them the sale. Had I rang that number or gone online, they would have been very happy to open the account.

NW didn't want the *branch* to provide the service to you and they didn't, so achieving their aim.

They knew they were taking a risk only offering you the lower cost phone line option, and in your case they lost, but that was their gamble as part of the savings from ridding themselves of the higher cost personal service customers.

Obviously £100k doesn't cut it to get personal service in your 'bright and shiny' branch (that is as useless as the one that no longer exists in my town) and I wonder how much is needed before you do get to experience them rolling out the red carpet.

I have an idea "how much". A few years ago I had a windfall half-million or so land in my NWB current account by wire transfer. Within an hour a "Regional Relationship Banking Liaison Officer (or some such titular nonsense) was on the phone to me, offering that I visit her in her office (not at a branch) to discuss "wealth planning".

No doubt she could open an account for me.

Then why didn't you suggest to the member of staff who was trying to help you that they should check with the Regional Relationship Banking Liaison Officer?

[swill453]

My main dealing with HSBC is with First Direct, who have been pretty flawless over the last thirty years, but then they are phone, online and app based with no branches...

true they don't - per se.

But they do have HSBC branches and as a FD customer for a few decades there is no effective difference. Not that I like attending my local HSBC branch...

I've been with First Direct for nearly 30 years, but I haven't been into an HSBC branch for over 15 years.

I used to pay in any cheques at the Post Office, until the app was upgraded to include that ability*. Now I have no need to do anything in person at all.

* - up to a limit of £500.

Scott.