Trouble with the bank?

[GeoffF100]

Over 30 years ago, I had a Lloyds account, and there were queues of people in the local branch with problems on their accounts. I switched to the Abbey National Building Society, which offered only a basic service, but was reliable and open for long hours. It is now a Santander account.

We had suggestions on another thread that a well known Lemon favours in person banking, gets problems and prefers to complain about them in person.

I have not had any serious problems with Santander. Everything is electronic and works. Sometimes I have to phone Santander to convince them that I am not making a gift to a scammer, but that is par for the course nowadays.

The are lots of complaints about Santander on Money Saving Expert Forums from people who do not like being asked for documents to satisfy KYC and AML requirements. That has not happened to me yet, and is also par for the course.

Do you have trouble with your bank?

[Urbandreamer]

I have not had any serious problems with Santander. Everything is electronic and works. Sometimes I have to phone Santander to convince them that I am not making a gift to a scammer, but that is par for the course nowadays.

Dito, sort of.

The are lots of complaints about Santander on Money Saving Expert Forums from people who do not like being asked for documents to satisfy KYC and AML requirements. That has not happened to me yet, and is also par for the course.

Do you have trouble with your bank?

I don't have "problems" with Santander because I am aware of their policies and comply. However their policies have caused me to start using my old Nationwide account, which has a different set of policies. I know of people who have had their Santander account closed because they assumed that Santander is as liberal as Nationwide.

Specifically I recently transferred £4k to a crytpto exchange. This is quite legal, but verboten at Santander and is likely to cause them to close your account. To achieve my intentions I had to use Nationwide as an intermediary.

According to Santander this is for my protection. It has of course nothing to do with the FCA going through their actions after fining them for AML failings.
https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-relea ... g-failures

[GeoffF100]

Yes, Santander was fined heavily for AML failings on its business accounts and is no doubt being extra thorough as a result.

AML checks primarily impact money coming into the account. My incoming money comes almost exclusively from my own accounts with other financial firms. Santander has my transaction record and their computer seems to recognise that. I have not been asked to prove my entitlement to money coming in.

My outgoing money is to UK regulated financial firms (I use Tesco Bank and Barclays for consumer expenditure). There was a period in which some of these transactions got flagged up as potential scams, but Santander's systems seem to be improving.

Santander is not the only bank that closes accounts at the first sniff of crypto.

[Urbandreamer]

Santander is not the only bank that closes accounts at the first sniff of crypto.

Indeed that is very true. (Though Santander don't close accounts at the first "sniff" of crypto).

However IF anyone is interested in crypto, then can I STRONGLY recommend investigating who they bank with and what their policy is. It may be that you and the bank jointly agree that you are best taking your business elsewhere.

Far better to establish this in advance, rather than find yourself unable to pay your credit card, gas bill or mortgage. Dare I suggest that people who find themselves in that situation may feel honestly aggrieved, given that they have committed no crime.

For your information, here is a link to Santander's current crypto policy.
https://www.santander.co.uk/personal/su ... tocurrency

Your limit will be:

£1,000 per transaction
a total of £3,000 in any rolling 30-day period

Here is Nationwide's policy.
https://www.nationwide.co.uk/help/fraud ... trictions/

If you have an adult or student current account, you can spend up to £5,000 a day.

[Lootman]

Do you have trouble with your bank?

Small problems are to be expected at any bank. The important thing is that they are fixed promptly when you complain. Or better yet, fixed before you even notice the error.

Over the last 50 years I have been with Midland/HSBC, Abbey/Santander, Lloyds, Barclays, Natwest and most recently Yorkshire BS. (Not Halifax because of those ridiculous purple outfits the staff apparently have to wear). They all annoyed me at some time or another. My pet peeves:

1) Calling me "Premier" and then giving me a lousy £1,500 credit limit on my credit card (HSBC)
2) Denying me a mortgage because I had once been a month late with a mortgage payment 5 years earlier (Santander)
3) Terminating my automatic "sweep" facility between my current and savings account (Natwest)
And so on.

I do put a value on my bank having a branch convenient for me. Although it does irk me when they have only one cashier and yet have swarms of people milling around trying to sell me insurance or ISAs.

Oh, and can bank staff please stop telling me to "go online" or "download the app" for everything. Not happening!

[GeoffF100]

I would not want to have my credit card with the same bank as my current account. Ditto for savings accounts.

Cash sweeps were not common, but if I remember correctly, they swept money from your current account after a fixed threshold was crossed. That makes sense if your monthly expenditure is always the same. Mine varies. I add up all the direct debits at the beginning of the month and leave that amount in my current account. You can do better with just in time financing. I do not bother with that, but I sometimes just in time a particularly large credit card bill.

[Lootman]

I would not want to have my credit card with the same bank as my current account. Ditto for savings accounts.

Cash sweeps were not common, but if I remember correctly, they swept money from your current account after a fixed threshold was crossed. That makes sense if your monthly expenditure is always the same. Mine varies. I add up all the direct debits at the beginning of the month and leave that amount in my current account. You can do better with just in time financing. I do not bother with that, but I sometimes just in time a particularly large credit card bill.

The sweep facility that I had with Natwest swept in both directions. It was designed to keep my current account balance at £1,000, such as to maximise the balance in the savings account. It adjusted daily.

I was offered it in 2010 when a large sum appeared in my current account and someone from my branch rang me. They told me the programme was being discontinued 2/3 years ago, although of course that might have been a way of telling me that my balances were not high enough.

I actually like having a credit card with the same bank as my current account. Sometimes owing your bank puts you in a stronger position than being owed by your bank.

[the0ni0nking]

I would not want to have my credit card with the same bank as my current account. Ditto for savings accounts.

Cash sweeps were not common, but if I remember correctly, they swept money from your current account after a fixed threshold was crossed. That makes sense if your monthly expenditure is always the same. Mine varies. I add up all the direct debits at the beginning of the month and leave that amount in my current account. You can do better with just in time financing. I do not bother with that, but I sometimes just in time a particularly large credit card bill.

What is a cash sweep? Is it that they sweep from your CA if you don't pay the minimum amount due on your CC at the same institution?

I've been banking with HSBC now (as my main bank) for maybe 15 years and have never have them "sweep" anything but is that because I pay my balance off in full in advance every month?

[GeoffF100]

I actually like having a credit card with the same bank as my current account. Sometimes owing your bank puts you in a stronger position than being owed by your bank.

The issue here is what happens if your bank has a serious outage, or freezes your accounts? Neither would be a big problem for me. I have a Santander current account, easy access savings with the Skipton, a prepaid debit card with Tesco Bank, and a Barclaycard. I can fund both my current account and the debit card from the Skipton, and pay all my bills with the debit card if needs be. If the Skipton goes down, I have short dated gilts with HL. No single failure would cause me serious problems.

[Lootman]

I actually like having a credit card with the same bank as my current account. Sometimes owing your bank puts you in a stronger position than being owed by your bank.

The issue here is what happens if your bank has a serious outage, or freezes your accounts? Neither would be a big problem for me. I have a Santander current account, easy access savings with the Skipton, a prepaid debit card with Tesco Bank, and a Barclaycard. I can fund both my current account and the debit card from the Skipton, and pay all my bills with the debit card if needs be. If the Skipton goes down, I have short dated gilts with HL. No single failure would cause me serious problems.

Sure, I did not mean that you should only bank with one institution. I have current accounts with 2 different High Street banks, plus a building society account, and NS&I. Plus an Amex card and 3 investment/dealing accounts. So there is redundancy.

I just meant that I am happy to have more than one account with the same institution.

[1nvest]

The end of the Pound and domestic retail banking is nigh.

The state want to know where every penny is, all your actions and movements, so it can fine/tax you to the hilt. Your hard earned wealth is its, is just a loan. As part of that AML requirements pretty much forces all banks to report all transactions into the states central databases.

I'd be happy with a Interactive Brokerage account that also included a credit card, and where transactions can be direct, transfer of some (even partial) shares from your account to another IB account internally. No need for Pounds or UK banks that deem your money to be theirs.

The more the controls that are applied the faster the Pound will die. Next step in that direction will be the withdrawal of hard cash, made more difficult to obtain - until only relatively few are using it being the excuse to move everyone over to electronic/digital only.

[chas49]

As part of that AML requirements pretty much forces all banks to report all transactions into the states central databases.

Your faith in central government IT systems is touching but misplaced. If government had planned to build such a massive system say ten years ago, we would still be waiting for it to be delivered and the cost would have eaten up all public spending.

[Urbandreamer]

As part of that AML requirements pretty much forces all banks to report all transactions into the states central databases.

Your faith in central government IT systems is touching but misplaced. If government had planned to build such a massive system say ten years ago, we would still be waiting for it to be delivered and the cost would have eaten up all public spending.

Err, did you read Computer Weekly 10-20 years ago? They did, and to a great extent, despite the old "try, try again", are getting there.
If you are interested, and most are not, then investigate how the state interacts with cryptocurrencies.

With respect to AML, you might be interested in the links I posted here.
viewtopic.php?p=641053#p641053

Why bother to report transactions when simply censoring (denying) them is so much easier.

[1nvest]

As part of that AML requirements pretty much forces all banks to report all transactions into the states central databases.

Your faith in central government IT systems is touching but misplaced. If government had planned to build such a massive system say ten years ago, we would still be waiting for it to be delivered and the cost would have eaten up all public spending.

Already in place and being extended such as better AI. The police can spot a "suspicious" individual, track their movements, calls, internet activity, use face/car plate recognition. The states CONNECT system tracks

Adverts on the internet e.g. Rightmove and Zoopla
Bank accounts and pensions
Council tax
Credit and debit card transactions, going back four years
Companies House
DVLA
DWP (former Benefits Agency)
eBay and other internet marketplaces
The electoral roll
Gas Safe Register
Insurance companies
Land Registry - for capital gains tax

With recent pressures upon banks to report any 'suspicious' transactions - leveled/designed such that banks feed all transactions into the state system.

Constant high resolution imaging from stationary orbit satellites multiple times/second add further capacity to pin a specific location/time-point and see movements leading up to and after than 'event'.

Even not carrying a phone has you flagged and checked. 99% in Trafalgar Square have phones, 1% don't, zoom in and see who those non-phone individuals are, where they came from, facial recognition, historic internet activities, risk assessment etc.

HMRC can use it to for instance observe undeclared work and/or use predictive analytics (street by street monitoring).

The main issue is having the resources to manually monitor/check/report flagged incidents, that AI advancements will massively accelerate.

[gryffron]

I think you’ve been watching too many Hollywood movies 1nvest.

Gryff

[chas49]

I think you’ve been watching too many Hollywood movies 1nvest.

Gryff

To be fair, I think the truth may lie somewhere between my (implicit) assertion that the government couldn't manage to build such as system, and the picture painted by 1nvest.

The list of data sources quoted appears in several articles and blogs. It seems reasonable to agree that those are all potential sources for HMRC investigations. It's a leap to believe that all these sources are routinely interrogated for data on all taxpayers, or that all banking transactions are scraped into a state database.

That database would be unbelievably massive and costly - and most of the data in it would be of little value to anyone. The cost of acquiring and retaining the datapoint that says that I paid for parking for one hour in the city centre of the place I live (and have lived for 35 years) would far outweigh the value of that information to HMRC. They already know where I live. They know that I own a 15 year old car. IMHO it's highly unlikely that my affairs are or will be the subject of an HMRC investigation. So that datapoint is of no value to them. But the cost of acquiring it is the same as that for acquiring any other (more valuable to them) data.

So I would expect that there would be some point to making sure (as far as possible) that they only acquire data they actually need. So they will target taxpayers who are worth investigating. Collect relevant data about them. Decide if it does indicate a "tax gap". If not, stop collecting data on that individual.

If you have a less charitable view of state activity, you may think they collect more data and do more with it. I'm not currently convinced.

In any case, I don't really think this is on-topic for this particular board, so we should probably drop it here.

[GeoffF100]

That database would be unbelievably massive and costly - and most of the data in it would be of little value to anyone.

Lets put some numbers in. British population, call it 70 million. Transactions per man woman and child per day, one perhaps, but call it 1,000 p.a. How many bytes per transaction. Call it 100. I make that 7 TB. That is a piddling amount of data nowadays. It is still piddling to a big organisation if you multiply it by ten or a hundred. Which is cheaper? A data feed, or a manual process for collecting individual pieces of information?

Nonetheless, that data is mostly not worth much to anyone except marketeers. I have recently started using a Tesco debit card. Tesco knows that I mostly shop in the Asda down the road. That is not very surprising really. Tesco also knows that I spent about £8 in both Boots and Lidl. Tesco has more information about my one shop in Tesco. It knows that I bought four bags of their budget oats. Most shops do not have the technology for collecting that level of information. I do not care who knows that I buy cheap oats. That information does not even help Tesco, because I do not look at their advertising.

[DrFfybes]

I would not want to have my credit card with the same bank as my current account. Ditto for savings accounts.

Cash sweeps were not common, but if I remember correctly, they swept money from your current account after a fixed threshold was crossed. That makes sense if your monthly expenditure is always the same. Mine varies. I add up all the direct debits at the beginning of the month and leave that amount in my current account. You can do better with just in time financing. I do not bother with that, but I sometimes just in time a particularly large credit card bill.

What is a cash sweep? Is it that they sweep from your CA if you don't pay the minimum amount due on your CC at the same institution?

The cash sweep I remember was from current to savings account - you set a minimum current account balance and on set dates (IIRC the day before payday or something) the surplus was swept into the linked savings account. In theory if you went below the minimum CA balance it swept the other way. This was fine in theory for most people, but if you wanted to make a large payment or had a couple of large bills coming close together you could find you'd paid one and then the bank had swept the balance you'd kept for the other into the savings account, or the payroll run had failed and the £300 you had in your current account the day before had been swept into savings, it was Saturday afternoon on a bank holiday weekend, and they were denying your cashcard.

Paul

[GeoffF100]

A cash sweep does not sound useful to me either. My direct debits are typically about £400. I leave that amount in my current account at the beginning of the month and the balance shrinks to zero by the end of the month. My average overnight balance is about £200. Apart from funding that, any money that arrives in my account is manually swept away the same day to an account with another financial firm. Nowadays, we get near instant notifications of money flowing into our accounts, and can move it out instantly in most cases. A cash sweep may have made sense once, but not nowadays (for me anyway).

[kempiejon]

I have a sweep on one of my current accounts, it's handy enough to tidy away surplus cash in case I'm not logging on to internet banking. I stay on top of my accounts so it isn't usually triggered. It's usually benign but I have come a cropper.
A place I worked at would give us our wages a week early in December. I never got a satisfactory reason quite why, the answer I was given had something to do with Christmas. To compensate for that making a long time between pay dates they also sometimes paid early in January too.
I had my sweep set up to tidy anything above a few hundred to a savings account a few days before payday (last working day of the month). So in December and January it collected the early delivered wages and I had to reverse the sweep as I plan and have most of my bills early in the month.