Selling the 1999 one

[UnclePhilip]

Had a tenant leave just before Christmas, cleaned it up then sat back and did a little calculation. Was the first of 6 investment properties bought 1999-2001. Cost £56,000 late Victorian end terrace, nice place. after much loan juggling, ended up with old portfolio mortgage reduced to £67,000 fulled charged on it. If renting would get £650 per month. If selling probable sale price circa £175,000.

Decided to sell, just on market. Has been good to us, but getting tired with age, rebalancing finances, keeping 2 selling this. Percentage of joint net worth in property a bit too high for my liking, having bought 'retirement' home recently to settle into. I think the dividend yield on net proceeds invested in FTSE100 high yielders beats current and likely rent yield.

Anyway, I can't see under current market and financial circumstances why residential investment properties are attractive; particularly with recent irritating changes to interest allowable expenses and extra stamp duty. Was great back then, but now?

Anyway:
(i) thoughts on all this?
(ii) is there any way I can work out how to make this nice website as easy as TMF was to navigate? ('Favourite Boards' as a homepage for one!!)

Uncle

[staffordian]

Thoughts on point ii...

I always start at this bookmarked homepage...

http://www.lemonfool.co.uk

Then click on the three lines, top left marked "Quick links"

Click on Unread posts and I'm presented with all threads with posts I've not read. Usually only a couple of pages worth.

I skim through the list, reading what takes my fancy and skipping the rest.

Once finished, I click the "Mark all read" link, top right, just above the blue frame containing the list of unread posts. This means that next time I look for all Unread posts, I don't get the ones I've just looked at repeated.

It isn't the same as a favourite boards list, but IMHO it's better. I missed lots of good stuff on TMF by limiting my viewing to favourite boards and the odd look at Best of Boards.

Staffordian

[DiamondEcho]

Anyway, I can't see under current market and financial circumstances why residential investment properties are attractive; particularly with recent irritating changes to interest allowable expenses and extra stamp duty. Was great back then, but now?
Anyway:
(i) thoughts on all this?
(ii) is there any way I can work out how to make this nice website as easy as TMF was to navigate? ('Favourite Boards' as a homepage for one!!)
Uncle

Top hole UncleP
I've progressively divested too, just one left now. The government deregulated letting [90s], then later they saw landlords as turkey's ripe for plucking. And year after year the case for B2L reduces [tax on interest, H+S, insulation requirements, increasing tenant expectations etc]. And IME there are more profitable investments elsewhere which are now far simpler. I.e. even with an agent and just one property landlording remains a part-time job, and there is a point I no longer need that.

Just my 2c.

ps. re ii) I would like a Favs Board too, it'd allow my time on the forum to be far more focused.

[UnclePhilip]

Hello Staffordian,

Thanks for the 'Quick Links' pointer, appreciated!

Not the Favourites function (I'd like to just focus on a handfull of topics); but there you go....

Uncle

[UnclePhilip]

Top hole UncleP
I've progressively divested too, just one left now. The government deregulated letting [90s], then later they saw landlords as turkey's ripe for plucking. And year after year the case for B2L reduces [tax on interest, H+S, insulation requirements, increasing tenant expectations etc]. And IME there are more profitable investments elsewhere which are now far simpler. I.e. even with an agent and just one property landlording remains a part-time job, and there is a point I no longer need that.

Just my 2c.

ps. re ii) I would like a Favs Board too, it'd allow my time on the forum to be far more focused.

Hello DiamondEcho,

Yes, for me it's a combination of (i) changing investment circumstances with regard to property and (ii) an age thing; in 1999 I was energetic and loved the challenge. Now, I have to say the pleasure of leisure grows by the month....

Uncle

[JonE]

Not the Favourites function (I'd like to just focus on a handfull of topics); but there you go....

Hi, Unc.

Does the User Control Panel not work for you?

In the browser I now use it sits in a side-panel (could be a regular tab, I guess) and shows 'subscribed' boards with a colour difference in the icons to distinguish between those with unread posts and the fully-read. Open each of those in a separate tab (perhaps backgrounded) where each thread with unread posts has a little marker so click on each of those markers to open (in a background tab if you wish) the individual thread starting with the first unread post.

The only missing feature is for the User Control Panel to automatically refresh every so often. On TMF that was every 90 seconds by default but my browser of that time allowed me to change that refresh interval.

I may not have explained that at all well and it may not be quite what you seek but I hope it's enough to start a worthwhile exploration.

Sold up since leaving UK (while retaining just one) and enjoying "the pleasure of leisure" - when I can find the time.

Cheers!

[BarrenFluffit]

The old guard from the original days of Buy to let are leaving!

(only two lenders, you had to use a specified estate agent chain for management and other "quaint" features)

I sometimes use a browser add in that notifies if a page changes. You set the interval and which text you want it to monitor. It's called Distill.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-Gb/firefo ... /alertbox/
Handy if your expecting an announcement too. That said I haven't checked out all the features on TLF.

[UnclePhilip]

Does the User Control Panel not work for you?

In the browser I now use it sits in a side-panel (could be a regular tab, I guess) and shows 'subscribed' boards with a colour difference in the icons to distinguish between those with unread posts and the fully-read. Open each of those in a separate tab (perhaps backgrounded) where each thread with unread posts has a little marker so click on each of those markers to open (in a background tab if you wish) the individual thread starting with the first unread post.

The only missing feature is for the User Control Panel to automatically refresh every so often. On TMF that was every 90 seconds by default but my browser of that time allowed me to change that refresh interval.

I may not have explained that at all well and it may not be quite what you seek but I hope it's enough to start a worthwhile exploration.

Sold up since leaving UK (while retaining just one) and enjoying "the pleasure of leisure" - when I can find the time.

Cheers!

Thanks Jon! I hadn't been sufficiently aware of that control panel route; it seems useful and I'll try it out....

So, tell me about your life now, left UK!?

Best wishes

Uncle

[UnclePhilip]

Thanks to all for advise on Lemon Fool 'favourites'

I have set up my control panel > manage subscriptions as default home page as a tab in Firefox and it seems to correspond very closely to the old Motley Fool 'Favourite Boards' when I go online

Much appreciated!

Uncle

[Arborbridge]

Yes, for me it's a combination of (i) changing investment circumstances with regard to property and (ii) an age thing; in 1999 I was energetic and loved the challenge. Now, I have to say the pleasure of leisure grows by the month....

Rings big bells with me. I've been in BTL since mid 1990's (cant' remember exactly): age and inertia make me I'd feel more like exiting as the years progress. I keep saying I'll sell one a year as each tenant leaves, but they are still profitable and let easily. I'm less hands on and tend to get people to do more for me, which is my way round the inertia. The new tax regime and the general discouraging atmosphere don't help, but despite that my BTLs will continue to bring home a good income.

But all in all, it's not so much fun any more. I remember the sense of satisfaction when you got a place ready for new tenants, a job well done. I think it's geting near time for me to pass on the torch to a younger generation.

As Ben Johnson said "He who is bored of BTL is bored of life" .

[StepOne]

...but they are still profitable and let easily.

That's only half the story though isn't it? The other bit is how much capital you could realise by selling. I sold my only rental property 4 years ago and put the capital into an HYP which now pays out more than I was receiving in net rental profits (i.e. after tax), with none of the hassle.

StepOne

[DiamondEcho]

That's only half the story though isn't it? The other bit is how much capital you could realise by selling. I sold my only rental property 4 years ago and put the capital into an HYP which now pays out more than I was receiving in net rental profits (i.e. after tax), with none of the hassle

Agreed. Having large amounts of capital tied up in a rental or other investment is treated as an opportunity-cost. Per Google: 'the loss of other alternatives when one alternative is chosen.'

I reached the same conclusion as yourself, sold the bulk of my BTLs and put the money into a HYP. And same as yourself again it certainly produces more income that the rentals did, is a more liquid investment, and much less hassle. But then HYPing isn't for everyone and if a landlord is happy with their BTLing... horses for courses etc.

[jofc]

We only ever had a '97 and '98 BTL & we invested just before starting a family.

Yes, We should probably sell to maximize cash, but on the other hand the offspring might need somewhere to live in the coming years.

I can't see a major price adjustment until interest rates start rising significantly.

[Arborbridge]

DE, Stepone,

In my case, I could not achieve the same net income by selling and re-investing the capital. This is as a result of leverage, even though my leverage is conservative.

Arb.

[DiamondEcho]

Perhaps it depends Arb. My stock portfolio is 'margined', which is effectively a loan/mortgage via which I can but more stocks.
Currently at c50% Margin/[LTV] on which I currently pay 0.96% margin vs the significantly higher div% on my portfolio. What's the average yield on the FTSE-100, about 4%?
To continue the analogy, I currently don't have call on most of the div income, so as I'm steering towards lower-risk and early retirement am using it to pay-down the margin balance; like over-paying on a flexible mortgage. Within c2 years I hope to that the divs alone will have paid it all off.

[JonE]

In my case, I could not achieve the same net income by selling and re-investing the capital. This is as a result of leverage, even though my leverage is conservative.

I used to do the calculation periodically for individual properties and for the portfolio. The other important variable is the CGT payable from the net realisable value to show you what would actually be available for alternative investments. Debt value is usually known and net sales value can be estimated pretty well if comparables are available but the CGT computation requires keeping on top of changes in that tax regime and watching out for interactions with one's general tax position from time to time (including other capital disposals as well as income in the year).

If assessing individual candidates for disposal one has to watch out for the trap of having some properties which have, over time, become heavily loaded with debt while others may have become unencumbered. Selling a single, heavily mortgaged property which carries a hefty capital gain may even result in a negative cash flow! Various borrowing arrangements may also require surrendering some realised equity to pay down that creditor disproportionately - depends on things such as the borrowing deals you have, each lender's T&Cs and their view of LTV on your portfolio.

Cheers!

[Arborbridge]

I agree with you all about the hassle, though, touch wood, I've been lucky with the BTLs. But it is hassle, even if slight, and that's one reason I am looking to sell before it get too old to bother. I never feel my shares are going to call me up on my holiday with some problem, but then they do sometimes fall out of bed and say "Help! I've slashed my dividend".

The other factor is property gives one diversification and some capital stability.

I think going into BTL gave me a better return than shares would have done - in fact, I often regret not putting spare cash into buying a bigger property of my own when I had the chance. I'd guess the increase in capital would easily have outshone my HYP over the past twenty years, for little effort.

Arb.

[UnclePhilip]

Interesting thoughts on this thread, thanks all

My calculation was based on our specific circumstances; calculating net proceeds of sale, after loan redemption, CGT etc. Comparing likely dividend yield from this sum, and comparing it with net (post tax) profit from rental business.

After that calculation (which told me to sell and invest in more high yield equities), I looked at asset allocation. I prefer to rebalance towards dividend income. May sell another in a year or two, will look into that later. Re asset allocation, I look at shares and residential property, haven't thought much of bonds or other more exotic things either.

And age; I find that adds to the equation!

Uncle