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Tenant has removed smoke alarms

Covering Market, Trends, and Practical (but see LEMON-AID for Building & DIY)
bungeejumper
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Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61341

Postby bungeejumper » June 20th, 2017, 11:47 am

Any idea what my rights and obligations are on this one? Our flat tenant has removed the two lower-floor smoke alarms that we installed last February when she moved in, because she says her cigarettes set them off. (Optical alarms are less tolerant than the old ones, apparently.) :roll:

Honestly, we're doing our best here, but she's not helping matters, and I don't think the fire department would be very happy. AFAIK our lease doesn't have a clause insisting specifically that the tenant should keep the alarms in place, but it seems like the sort of thing that could be assumed to be obligatory. We've told her in writing that she needs to reinstall them pronto, but where do we go if she doesn't?

Fortunately, we do have a firm record that they were all correctly in place when we let the flat, because we used a big letting/vetting agent who assiduously checked and noted the alarms, the monoxide detectors and the fire extinguishers (all brand new) back in February. Wouldn't make us feel any better if something terrible happened now, though. :(

BJ

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61357

Postby baldchap » June 20th, 2017, 12:34 pm

Pretty sure they are a legal requirement in let properties. (UK)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tena ... t-measures

They should be replaced. I would also give a verbal warning whilst you are at it.

GL.

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61359

Postby bungeejumper » June 20th, 2017, 12:51 pm

baldchap wrote:Pretty sure they are a legal requirement in let properties. (UK)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tena ... t-measures.


Thanks, that's a useful link. I am slightly comforted by the bit that says “I urge all tenants to make sure they regularly test their alarms to ensure they work when it counts. Testing regularly remains the tenant’s responsibility.” Seems to be firm on the general principle, even though it doesn't discuss actual sabotage by the tenant. ;)

We like this young woman and we'd like to keep her. I suppose we could implement monthly inspections? But any more thoughts very welcome.

Ta again

BJ

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61362

Postby Infrasonic » June 20th, 2017, 1:00 pm

I think the legal minimum is one smoke alarm per floor. My new build single floor flat only has one hallway smoke alarm.

I have them in the downstairs and upstairs hallways on my house rental. Just had new 10 year units put in on the last refurb.
You need to inform your tenant in writing. It's one reason I don't rent to smokers...

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61363

Postby PinkDalek » June 20th, 2017, 1:07 pm

bungeejumper wrote:Any idea what my rights and obligations are on this one? Our flat tenant has removed the two lower-floor smoke alarms that we installed last February when she moved in, because she says her cigarettes set them off. (Optical alarms are less tolerant than the old ones, apparently.) :roll:

Honestly, we're doing our best here, but she's not helping matters, and I don't think the fire department would be very happy. AFAIK our lease doesn't have a clause insisting specifically that the tenant should keep the alarms in place, but it seems like the sort of thing that could be assumed to be obligatory. We've told her in writing that she needs to reinstall them pronto, but where do we go if she doesn't?

Fortunately, we do have a firm record that they were all correctly in place when we let the flat, because we used a big letting/vetting agent who assiduously checked and noted the alarms, the monoxide detectors and the fire extinguishers (all brand new) back in February. Wouldn't make us feel any better if something terrible happened now, though. :(

BJ


I've taken this from an email I wrote recently but you may actually be covered if you complied with the legislation at the start of the tenancy. Not that it helps as such and you may need to check what's included in your insurance policy.

The email included:

Anyway and more importantly, you should study this overview:

https://www.gov.uk/renting-out-a-proper ... sibilities

It also leads to this https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... nd-tenants

Extract only (my bold):

The Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations 2015 have been approved by Parliament and will come into force as planned on 1 October 2015.

Private sector landlords are required from 1 October 2015 to have at least one smoke alarm installed on every storey of their properties and a carbon monoxide alarm in any room containing a solid fuel burning appliance (eg a coal fire, wood burning stove). After that, the landlord must make sure the alarms are in working order at the start of each new tenancy.


[end of email extract]

Best to read the entirety but looking again at the second link, it includes the following (aimed more at the landlord of course):

5. How to gain permission to install the alarm or take remedial action if access to the premises is denied by the tenant

The landlord should write to the tenant to explain that it is a legal requirement to install the alarms and that it is for the tenant’s own safety.

If the local authority has reasonable grounds to believe the landlord has not complied with the regulations a remedial notice will be issued, detailing the suspected breach and required action.

If the landlord proves compliance, either by becoming compliant or proving they were already compliant, to the relevant local authority or demonstrates they have taken all reasonable steps, other than legal proceedings, to become compliant within 28 days of the notice being issued then they will be exempt from the civil penalty – which could be up to £5,000.


Perhaps you might ask the local authority what you can do in such a situation, although that might give rise to problems you don't need!

There's also this which I haven't read:

The Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm
(England) Regulations 2015
Explanatory Booklet for Local Authorities
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... EVISED.pdf

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61367

Postby Infrasonic » June 20th, 2017, 1:12 pm

I suppose we could implement monthly inspections? But any more thoughts very welcome.


Most agency tenancy AST's will have a 'mid term inspection' clause. So three months into a six month AST or six months into a year one.
Has your AST contract got such a clause?

I took a load of pictures after the January refurb at my house rental to serve as a baseline 'landlord inventory' to keep the agent on their toes when it came to the mid term inspections (their photographs weren't very good, a point the agency property manager has conceded and promised to rectify).

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61371

Postby bungeejumper » June 20th, 2017, 1:24 pm

Snorvey wrote:Maybe it's just up in Scotland, but I thought they all had to be hard wired in these days?

I think they do in HMOs down here in the south, and they have to be linked as well. It also makes plain common sense to have linked systems wherever there are shops and eateries on the ground floor, but in our area, at least, it isn't compulsory. We are on pretty good terms with the local fire officer, and he's confirmed that. Although it was a couple of years ago.

BJ

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61513

Postby iain123 » June 21st, 2017, 8:13 am

While we are on the subject, anybody got any good methods to test smoke alarms? Burning newspaper etc?
Moderator Message:
moving post to more appropriate forum for this. Raptor.

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61526

Postby Dod1010 » June 21st, 2017, 9:09 am

Fire alarms have got a button them that you press to test them.

Irrespective of how good a tenant she might be, you cannot allow her to remove the fire alarms. If she has to smoke tell her she must smoke outside. It will be better for your decoration, furnishings etc as well.

Dod

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61544

Postby kiloran » June 21st, 2017, 9:59 am

Dod1010 wrote:Fire alarms have got a button them that you press to test them.
Dod

Does that test the sensor, or just the battery?

--kiloran

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61546

Postby PinkDalek » June 21st, 2017, 10:10 am

Dod1010 wrote:... Irrespective of how good a tenant she might be, you cannot allow her to remove the fire alarms. ...


I looked previously to see where this aspect was covered in the guidance etc. I failed. Please refer to my previous post on this thread.

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61553

Postby Dod1010 » June 21st, 2017, 10:32 am

kiloran wrote:
Dod1010 wrote:Fire alarms have got a button them that you press to test them.
Dod

Does that test the sensor, or just the battery?

--kiloran


The answer is I do not know but I would think the sensor since if the battery fails, I get the most annoying bleep every couple of minutes to remind me to change it. That of course is the idea (the annoying bleep that is). I have three alarms in different parts of my house and the batteries all seem to fail within a couple of months of each other then nothing for another year or two.

Dod

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61568

Postby ReformedCharacter » June 21st, 2017, 11:08 am

iain123 wrote:While we are on the subject, anybody got any good methods to test smoke alarms? Burning newspaper etc?

I've seen professional alarm testers use something from an aerosol can, a search for 'fire detector spray' provides many different types.

RC

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#61699

Postby DiamondEcho » June 21st, 2017, 5:59 pm

bungeejumper wrote:We like this young woman and we'd like to keep her. I suppose we could implement monthly inspections? But any more thoughts very welcome. BJ


Monthly, no, I don't suggest it unless you want to put 'major heat' on the tenant, a LLs inspection can feel rather like a visit from the Nazis. If you like the tenant it helps - both ways - to build trust. And if there isn't trust and/or it's being breached just get a new tenant IME or it's going to be perpetual pushing of boundaries.

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#62630

Postby monabri » June 24th, 2017, 10:23 pm

You might want to consider fitting a heat sensor in the kitchen rather than a smoke detector. Fit a smoke detector in a hall. They are cheap enough.

We actually had them hardwired into the mains by a qualified electrician.

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#62841

Postby Clitheroekid » June 25th, 2017, 10:09 pm

bungeejumper wrote:AFAIK our lease doesn't have a clause insisting specifically that the tenant should keep the alarms in place, but it seems like the sort of thing that could be assumed to be obligatory.

It may not do, but it's bound to have general covenants requiring the tenant not to remove landlord's fixtures and fittings and to ensure that she complies with the law etc, both of which she will have broken.

It might also be worth checking whether the AST actually prohibits smoking on the premises anyway - most modern ones do.

It seems to me that even if you do like her and want her to stay this is something that is simply not open to argument. She needs to be told in no uncertain terms that the smoke alarms are going back in and staying back in, and that if she disables them again you'll have no option but to turf her out.

If you feel the need to justify this you can say that she's exposing you to the risk of criminal prosecution if the alarms aren't working, and that it will also invalidate the property insurance policy so that she will be personally liable to pay for any fire damage.

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#66809

Postby PinkDalek » July 12th, 2017, 8:19 pm

bungeejumper wrote:Any idea what my rights and obligations are on this one? Our flat tenant has removed the two lower-floor smoke alarms ...


Purely out of interest, how did this progress?

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#66867

Postby Hariseldon58 » July 12th, 2017, 11:36 pm

Removing smoke alarms is not permitted , if she does not reinstate them pronto, then she is not a good tenant.

You are exposing yourself to a lot of problems further down the road and it might be prudent to consider whether she should remain a tenant.

Experience suggests that when a tenant behaves unreasonably and will not respond to common sense advice to desist, then further incidents follow and a parting of the ways occurs.

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#66997

Postby bungeejumper » July 13th, 2017, 1:05 pm

PinkDalek wrote:Purely out of interest, how did this progress?

We wrote to her insisting that she should reinstate the alarms, and explaining why. My wife called in on Tuesday and they were back in position. I guess I ought to check additionally that she hasn't removed the batteries, though?

BJ

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Re: Tenant has removed smoke alarms

#68776

Postby Pipsmum » July 21st, 2017, 10:45 am

bungeejumper wrote:
PinkDalek wrote:I guess I ought to check additionally that she hasn't removed the batteries, though?


If there is a fire then your insurance will be null and void if you don't ensure this matter is fully resolved forever. Is this tenant really worth that risk just for a fag and because you like her?


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