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Can a house really be run on electricity

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jackdaww
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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450036

Postby jackdaww » October 14th, 2021, 10:03 am

Howard wrote:
jackdaww wrote:.

re Air Sourced Heat Pumps.

has any one noticed the amount of NOISE from the fans .

if these are adopted in urban areas , i suspect their noise will swamp road traffic noise .

:(


Do you have any evidence for this? I have a modern air sourced heat pump and it's incredibly quiet. Even standing outside listening late at night it's barely audible. Much quieter than the rustle of leaves on trees in our country environment. The same is true for neighbours' units.

regards

Howard


===========================

only from some commercial units .

i dont know any domestic installations - maybe they are quiet .

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450045

Postby richfool » October 14th, 2021, 10:32 am

For those living in flats and particularly mid floor flats, aren't Air Sourced Heat Pumps going to be the only alternative (when gas boilers go)? If so, won't they necessitate a considerable amount of upheaval and cost if new pipework has to be installed and a hot water cylinder? Regardless of noise, I would guess they are likely to look rather unsightly.

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450063

Postby bungeejumper » October 14th, 2021, 11:11 am

jackdaww wrote:
Howard wrote:
jackdaww wrote:.

re Air Sourced Heat Pumps.

has any one noticed the amount of NOISE from the fans .

if these are adopted in urban areas , i suspect their noise will swamp road traffic noise .

:(


Do you have any evidence for this? I have a modern air sourced heat pump and it's incredibly quiet. Even standing outside listening late at night it's barely audible. Much quieter than the rustle of leaves on trees in our country environment. The same is true for neighbours' units.


===========================

only from some commercial units .

i dont know any domestic installations - maybe they are quiet .

They're not! My friend's newly-installed 5 kw ASHP meets the 46 decibel standard (at one metre distance), but from inside the house it still sounds as though her neighbours have left their car engine running on the drive all night. It's probably quite a good job that she doesn't have any immediate neighbours. :lol:

Our house (5 bed detached) would require a bigger pump, probably 11 or 14 kw, and those things typically kick out 60 decibels at one metre distance - which is somewhere between a washing machine and a vacuum cleaner. A proper look at the noise rules casts a serious question over their suitability.

Basically, you halve the distance between your heat pump and the perimeter of your neighbour's property, and along that imaginary central line you're required to keep the maximum decibels down to 42. That won't be so bad if it's a 46 db unit, but if you start with 60 db then your neighbours had better be a long way away.

The calc, as I understand it, goes that your received noise at 1 metre drops by 6 decibels during each doubling of the distance. So with at two metres it's heard as 54 decibels, and at four metres it's 48 db, and at eight metres it's finally down to 42 decibels. Now, that's your midway line, remember. You'd actually have to be 16 metres away from your neighbour's perimeter wall before a 60 decibel ASHP unit met the noise rules!

I'm not an engineer, so do please check my calculations, but it seems perfectly clear (to me :? ) that this is going to be a problem for many, many homeowners, including just about everybody in a densely-populated urban area. There was a study from Edinburgh Napier university that set all this out a few years ago. And the upshot of its conclusion was that only the smallest ASHPs were capable of meeting the needs of people who lived in close proximity without running foul of the noise regs.

We have a different problem. We live in a conservation zone, and ASHPs can't be installed at all out here without planning permission. They mustn't be on a wall that's visible from any road, and the noise regs are more tightly enforced. In short, not a chance! Not until they get an awful lot quieter. Which, eventually, they will.

BJ

Howard
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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450387

Postby Howard » October 15th, 2021, 3:41 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
jackdaww wrote:
Howard wrote:
Do you have any evidence for this? I have a modern air sourced heat pump and it's incredibly quiet. Even standing outside listening late at night it's barely audible. Much quieter than the rustle of leaves on trees in our country environment. The same is true for neighbours' units.


===========================

only from some commercial units .

i dont know any domestic installations - maybe they are quiet .

They're not! My friend's newly-installed 5 kw ASHP meets the 46 decibel standard (at one metre distance), but from inside the house it still sounds as though her neighbours have left their car engine running on the drive all night. It's probably quite a good job that she doesn't have any immediate neighbours. :lol:

BJ


Our Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ASHP is rated at 4kW and inside the house it is whisper quiet on a normal setting. Virtually inaudible. And similarly quiet outside (mounted at ground level on noise absorbing mounts). Before I chose it I visited a showroom which had a number of similar units and it was quieter than some competitors but none were that noisy.

Your friend might benefit from getting her unit checked, I don't think it should be as noisy as you report.

Two (wealthy) neighbours have Daikin units and they are as quiet as my unit. Another neighbour has a bigger unit of a brand I can't remember and it's not noisy either.

Some establishments I have visited (like the dentist :( ) have noisier installations but they are older and probably lower quality brands.

Obviously in city centres with a lot of hard reflective surfaces, if everyone has an ASHP, it will be important to ensure they aren't a nuisance.

Perhaps others with larger domestic ASHPs would care to comment. Any owner with a noisy unit?

regards

Howard

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450413

Postby fisher » October 15th, 2021, 4:52 pm

I have a NIBE 16kw rated ASHP. The majority of the time it is relatively quiet and I don't think the neighbours can hear it at all. When it gets much colder (below 3 degrees or so) it gets noisier as it works harder and I'm sure the neighbours can hear it if they have their windows open. In particular it seems noisier when it is defrosting. It has to defrost more when it is colder outside and so it is noisier for longer again at those lower temperatures.

I certainly wouldn't describe my machine as "incredibly quiet", but during the majority of its operation it is fairly unobtrusive. We don't notice any real noise from inside the house even at those colder temperatures.

I have a detached house. I don't think my machine is really suitable for terraced housing and definitely not for flats. There would be definite noise issues in those circumstances.

bungeejumper
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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450458

Postby bungeejumper » October 15th, 2021, 7:31 pm

Howard wrote:Our Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ASHP is rated at 4kW and inside the house it is whisper quiet on a normal setting. Virtually inaudible.

fisher wrote:I have a NIBE 16kw rated ASHP. The majority of the time it is relatively quiet and I don't think the neighbours can hear it at all.

And the Mitsubishi Ecodan 4 kw is rated at 43 decibels, and the NIBE 16-kw (F2040-16) is given at 61 decibels. Pretty much in the ballpark I described, is it not? ;)

Naturally, it's not quite as simple as that, because those are peak sound levels, and they're not on full thrust for all the time. ASHPs have three levels - idling, working hard, and defrosting, which is often the noisiest of all. (In cold weather, a defrost cycle happens every 30 to 60 minutes.) The colder the outside temp, the more they use the hard-working operational levels, which will often mean they're flat out during winter nights.

And then there's a panoply of different measurement standards in use by different manufacturers, and they all seem deliberately to designed to confuse. Things aren't exactly helped by egregious errors in the publicity materials - I've seen one which insisted that an ASHP can be mounted in a kitchen cupboard! (Where are you gonna assemble all that lovely borrowed warm air from, then, if it's all coming from inside your own kitchen.) And let's forget about the outgoing stream of cold air which will freeze the path and kill the herbacious border. :lol:

But heck, the best thing is undoubtedly to judge by what your own ears tell you during a real winter, I suppose? Tricky, since you've got to have shelled out for the system before you find out. :| I do note, however, that the installation instructions tell you to site the unit well away from doors or opening windows, or the noise coming in from outside will cause you problems.

Repeat: One day, ASHPs will be quiet, and I'll be in the queue to buy one. Not until a few things have got a bit clearer, though!

BJ

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450470

Postby Howard » October 15th, 2021, 8:17 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
Howard wrote:Our Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ASHP is rated at 4kW and inside the house it is whisper quiet on a normal setting. Virtually inaudible.

fisher wrote:I have a NIBE 16kw rated ASHP. The majority of the time it is relatively quiet and I don't think the neighbours can hear it at all.

And the Mitsubishi Ecodan 4 kw is rated at 43 decibels, and the NIBE 16-kw (F2040-16) is given at 61 decibels. Pretty much in the ballpark I described, is it not? ;)

Naturally, it's not quite as simple as that, because those are peak sound levels, and they're not on full thrust for all the time. ASHPs have three levels - idling, working hard, and defrosting, which is often the noisiest of all. (In cold weather, a defrost cycle happens every 30 to 60 minutes.) The colder the outside temp, the more they use the hard-working operational levels, which will often mean they're flat out during winter nights.

And then there's a panoply of different measurement standards in use by different manufacturers, and they all seem deliberately to designed to confuse. Things aren't exactly helped by egregious errors in the publicity materials - I've seen one which insisted that an ASHP can be mounted in a kitchen cupboard! (Where are you gonna assemble all that lovely borrowed warm air from, then, if it's all coming from inside your own kitchen.) And let's forget about the outgoing stream of cold air which will freeze the path and kill the herbacious border. :lol:

But heck, the best thing is undoubtedly to judge by what your own ears tell you during a real winter, I suppose? Tricky, since you've got to have shelled out for the system before you find out. :| I do note, however, that the installation instructions tell you to site the unit well away from doors or opening windows, or the noise coming in from outside will cause you problems.

Repeat: One day, ASHPs will be quiet, and I'll be in the queue to buy one. Not until a few things have got a bit clearer, though!

BJ


Yes, you are absolutely right!

I must admit that, reading Fisher's post, I realise that I haven't stood outside on a freezing cold night listening to my ASHP's full defrost cycle. My listening observations were briefly in my own garden during normal operations. And I didn't stand near the freezing outgoing airstream for long!

And the experience of actively listening to the neighbours' units, out of interest, has been strolling past on hot nights when they were being used for air conditioning so not under a heavy load. I wouldn't want to get caught lurking in their shrubbery listening to their defrost cycle. :oops:

But all of us are pleasantly surprised how quiet they are from indoors and we don't tend to have open windows when it's really cold. Nor of course when it's so hot we are using aircon.

regards

Howard

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450548

Postby taken2often » October 16th, 2021, 10:56 am

All new equipment should be silent, as they wear you would get more noise, when attached to the building possible vibrating the noise a greater distance. Keep in mind wind turbines can self destruct due to bearing wear.

It appears that there is many ways to create Hydrogen and the cost is reducing rapidly. I may be wrong but the test proposed in the above reply may relate to a pure Hydrogen system to keep the Greens happy. I think the introduction of Hydrogen into the existing system has already started. Perhaps a bit like Ethanol in petrol it did not effect most cars. So if it effected a gas boiler due to age, it needs replaced a result for someone.

I note no comment about the Air Sourced Grants being paid for by the Working Poor or anyone working

The so called magic of transforming 1kwh into 4kwh of heat will happen when you pressurise anything. My Fridge Frezer cools my food and provides heat at the same time. Ok but when you then want to heat a tank of water to then circulate round a wet heating system there will be a drop off in performance as they are designed to run best at low temps. Do they build heating elements into the system so that you think it is workin well, only your electric bill will will tell.

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450556

Postby bungeejumper » October 16th, 2021, 11:19 am

taken2often wrote:All new equipment should be silent, as they wear you would get more noise, when attached to the building possible vibrating the noise a greater distance. Keep in mind wind turbines can self destruct due to bearing wear.

It's a fan. :| A great big one, designed to funnel an awful lot of air through a metal channel. The sound of the bearings should hardly be an issue, I'd have thought? And nor should motors now that they're all induction units.

There's definitely progress being made. More thought is being given to the design of the casings and the fan blades, so that they channel the air better. And there are better refrigerant gases such as R32, which are more efficient and (slightly) less harmful to the upper atmosphere. https://les.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/th ... hangetor32

My goodness, you can even get heat pumps in dark colours now! In theory, I'm told, gleaming white-painted cases are more heat-efficient because they don't soak up atmospheric heat the way that darker paints do - so the result is that white paint means more heat gets passed through to the heat exchangers where you actually want it. But I'd seriously doubt whether the lost efficiency with darker paint is that much, really. And, for those of us who live in older houses, having a washing-machine sized white monster sitting outside the house can be a deal-breaker. :(

Progress all the way, in fact. We'll get there.

BJ

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450664

Postby gryffron » October 16th, 2021, 9:11 pm

Hallucigenia wrote:The basic problem with making hydrogen from electricity is that you lose half the original energy in the process of making and distributing it, compared to losing 5-10% in electricity distribution. So it's always going to have higher running costs than even direct heating with electricity, never mind with the multiplier effect of heat pumps.
The other problem is that there are going to be so many other applications that will be ahead of heating in the queue for hydrogen. For the next decade or so, all the hydrogen that can be produced will be going into chemical plants, fertiliser plants and the like. There will be a niche for hydrogen in domestic heating, but I suspect it won't be more than 10-20%.

But surely the theory goes that reasonably soon, we're going to have all that wind, wave and nuclear being pumped out throughout the night when no-one wants it. So the only practical use for it is to turn it into Hydrogen. It doesn't matter how inefficient it is, since it is (will be) essentially free/waste energy that no-one else is using.

Gryff

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450667

Postby JohnB » October 16th, 2021, 9:44 pm

There are plenty of technologies being developed that will time-shift electricity from night to day, and electric cars will be a good sink for nighttime power, so I can't ever see nighttime electricity being cheap enough to be worth converting it to house heating hydrogen, given that ASHPs use 1/4 of the electricity that green hydrogen domestic boilers will.

And even if you think hydrogen might help with the cold calm week problem, its use will be in industrial plant that runs occasionally, not feeding a domestic pipeline network.

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450686

Postby Hallucigenia » October 17th, 2021, 12:40 am

gryffron wrote:But surely the theory goes that reasonably soon, we're going to have all that wind, wave and nuclear being pumped out throughout the night when no-one wants it. So the only practical use for it is to turn it into Hydrogen. It doesn't matter how inefficient it is, since it is (will be) essentially free/waste energy that no-one else is using.


The fact remains that if you have lots of night-time electricity, then it is better used as electricity - if it will be as "waste" as you imply, then Economy 7 will cost buttons. As I say, there's going to be many more calls on hydrogen from applications that don't have electric as an alternative - they will be less price sensitive than home heating so will pay a higher price as they don't have an alternative.

And also I think you underestimate how much work is going into grid storage right now, plus the potential for electric vehicles to act as a sink. Ballpark numbers - in the year to March 2020, the UK HGV fleet did 17.2 billion miles, the LGV fleet did 54.9 billion and cars/taxis did 272.1 billion. Say electric cars use 330Wh/mile (10% less than a Tesla 3), LGVs 600Wh/mile and HGVs 2000Wh/mile (claimed for Tesla Semi) then the current mileage profile would translate to 157TWh in a year, or just under 18GW of continuous electricity. If they all charged overnight 10pm-6am, then vehicles would use 54GW for 8 hours a day.

We currently have a bit under 80GW of capacity, not all of it usable at any one time. Last year demand peaked at 47.275GW on a daily basis and was never lower than 17.151GW. Obviously there will be a bit of daytime charging but the vast majority will be done at night on top of that 17GW baseload demand so there's not going to be buckets of "free/waste" energy overnight.

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450715

Postby funduffer » October 17th, 2021, 10:21 am

If you fancy fitting an ASHP yourself, here is our FIRE friend Mr Money Mustache telling you how to do it (in the USA):

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2021/10 ... heat-pump/

He has an old house, and a ducted air heating system which makes things a bit easier.

It got me thinking what I would need to do to the heating system to fit an ASHP in my 1960's bungalow. I have a traditional gas combi-boiler plus radiators (hot water) system. It would have to change radically.

Maybe a hot water system with larger radiators and pipes.

Or underfloor heating.

Or maybe ducted hot air like MrMM.

Whatever, it is a carve up of all the floors and pipes, and probably more expensive than the actual ASHP unit itself!

Then there is what to do about hot water?

It will be interesting to see what the government propose in their forthcoming proposals on house heating.

FD

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#450978

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 18th, 2021, 12:02 pm

richfool wrote:For those living in flats and particularly mid floor flats, aren't Air Sourced Heat Pumps going to be the only alternative (when gas boilers go)? If so, won't they necessitate a considerable amount of upheaval and cost if new pipework has to be installed and a hot water cylinder? Regardless of noise, I would guess they are likely to look rather unsightly.


Flats are low-hanging fruit for major efficiencies, in the form of communal facilities serving an entire block (or even estate) and getting considerable benefits from economies of scale. Which could in turn involve a mix of technologies.

The flat I had when working in Germany in the mid-1980s had that: big communal boiler, with each flat metered on its consumption of heat and hot water. This was an estate of over 2000 flats in several high-rise blocks. There was some noise, though it didn't reach me on the ninth floor.

There still seem to be perverse disincentives to that in Blighty. Big government subsidies if I get an individual heat pump, but an altogether less-attractive scheme if my neighbours and I get together and install a communal heat pump.

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#451034

Postby JohnB » October 18th, 2021, 3:51 pm

I believe most German flats (and indeed houses) are rented from big companies, so its easier for the block owner to act unilaterally. We've seen fools before complaining about block heating systems, or crowing because they'd taken them out and watched the neighbours bicker.

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#451084

Postby bungeejumper » October 18th, 2021, 7:07 pm

funduffer wrote:It got me thinking what I would need to do to the heating system to fit an ASHP in my 1960's bungalow. I have a traditional gas combi-boiler plus radiators (hot water) system. It would have to change radically.

Maybe a hot water system with larger radiators and pipes.

Or underfloor heating.

Or maybe ducted hot air like MrMM.

Whatever, it is a carve up of all the floors and pipes, and probably more expensive than the actual ASHP unit itself!

I think the cost of the ASHP unit itself is always a minor part of the calculation. £2,000 buys you quite a lot. :) But by the time you've added the heat exchangers and the various circulation pumps, and the hot water tank, and the thing that makes it all work with your solar panels, you're almost ready for the huge cost of ripping up your floors and installing it all. :lol:

Bungee Towers does have one thing going for it, which is that I installed a massive superfluity of radiator capacity when we first restored the house thirty years ago. We shouldn't have much of a problem running it all on a reduced water temperature - and if we do, I can always bang in a few more rads @ £150 apiece.

Loft insulation is already at 11 inches. But as for cavity wall insulation and double glazing, forget it. Our walls are two feet thick and built of solid stone, and Mr Listed Building Authority says no to double glazing as well. Indeed, he'll prosecute us if we even think of touching the 19th century drawn glass in the windows. There are going to be some interesting conversations going on between the conservationists and the energy efficiency people, and so far there's no sign that they've even started the process. Don't hold your breath. ;)

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#451279

Postby Howard » October 19th, 2021, 1:15 pm

Interesting post on a Lemon fool ASHP thread. Which refers to an article about actual installations. Hat tip to Watis.

viewtopic.php?p=451236#p451236

According to the small sample in the article, Mitsubishi ASHPs do seem to be quieter and more reliable than some other makes. Obviously assuming they are correctly specified for the task.

I've disguised the exterior unit in an open decorative frame which doubles as a bbq table. I've had a couple of visitors interested in installing an ASHP who have taken some time to find it, even when it's working!

regards

Howard

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#451415

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 19th, 2021, 8:13 pm

JohnB wrote:I believe most German flats (and indeed houses) are rented from big companies, so its easier for the block owner to act unilaterally. We've seen fools before complaining about block heating systems, or crowing because they'd taken them out and watched the neighbours bicker.

My flat was rented from a private landlady.

It had been a pad in the city for her late husband. As a widow she had no use for it herself, so rented it out.

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#451484

Postby bruncher » October 20th, 2021, 3:29 am

gryffron wrote:
Hallucigenia wrote:The basic problem with making hydrogen from electricity is that you lose half the original energy in the process of making and distributing it, compared to losing 5-10% in electricity distribution. So it's always going to have higher running costs than even direct heating with electricity, never mind with the multiplier effect of heat pumps.
The other problem is that there are going to be so many other applications that will be ahead of heating in the queue for hydrogen. For the next decade or so, all the hydrogen that can be produced will be going into chemical plants, fertiliser plants and the like. There will be a niche for hydrogen in domestic heating, but I suspect it won't be more than 10-20%.

But surely the theory goes that reasonably soon, we're going to have all that wind, wave and nuclear being pumped out throughout the night when no-one wants it. So the only practical use for it is to turn it into Hydrogen. It doesn't matter how inefficient it is, since it is (will be) essentially free/waste energy that no-one else is using.

Gryff


How will the hydrogen be used?

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Re: Can a house really be run on electricity

#451621

Postby Hallucigenia » October 20th, 2021, 12:40 pm

bruncher wrote:How will the hydrogen be used?


Do you mean in heating or more generally? HMG's Hydrogen Strategy published a few weeks ago gives a general idea of where we're heading - in particular the plan on heating is to do some trials and then in 2026 decide what the long-term strategy for mains gas will be on whether it's blended with 20% hydrogen (being burnt in standard gas boilers with minor modifications) or 100% hydrogen (probably mostly fuel cells).

But a rough idea of where the priorities for using hydrogen in the economy, see Michael Liebreich's priority list - the chemical industry will be the main place it gets used, followed by the kind of long-distance transport where electrification/batteries aren't practical.


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