Battery Storage for solar

[scrumpyjack]

and the FIT payments are funded by electricity consumers, not the government.

[funduffer]

In my case the return is made up of ......the reduced use of grid electricity & the FIT payments, which are in two parts (UK Gov' & energy supplier).

But unless you have a time machine those arrangements are not available now, so any consideration for an installation now should be based on what they are now.

But you can get paid for your exported solar power now. Octopus pay 5p per kWh and OVO pay 4p per kWh. This is via a SEG (Smart Export Guarantee), and is the replacement for the old FIT. It is paid on the actual power that you export, so you need a Smart meter to get the SEG tariff. Note also, the SEG provider does not need to be the same as your power provider. I get gas and electricity from Octopus, and use OVO's SEG to get paid for my excess solar power. I don't pay any money to OVO, I just receive payments from them!

The 6.8% return I quoted above is based on savings from solar on power imported and SEG payments for exported solar.

If you have a south facing roof, and £4k or £5k to spare, I would definitely go for it.

FD

[AF62]

In my case the return is made up of ......the reduced use of grid electricity & the FIT payments, which are in two parts (UK Gov' & energy supplier).

But unless you have a time machine those arrangements are not available now, so any consideration for an installation now should be based on what they are now.

But you can get paid for your exported solar power now. Octopus pay 5p per kWh and OVO pay 4p per kWh. This is via a SEG (Smart Export Guarantee), and is the replacement for the old FIT. It is paid on the actual power that you export, so you need a Smart meter to get the SEG tariff. Note also, the SEG provider does not need to be the same as your power provider. I get gas and electricity from Octopus, and use OVO's SEG to get paid for my excess solar power. I don't pay any money to OVO, I just receive payments from them!

The 6.8% return I quoted above is based on savings from solar on power imported and SEG payments for exported solar.

If you have a south facing roof, and £4k or £5k to spare, I would definitely go for it.

FD

Is that 6.8% net of what you could get investing that £4k or £5k? If it doesn’t take account of the alternative use of the money then that return doesn’t sound great.

and the FIT payments are funded by electricity consumers, not the government.

So the poor who can’t afford solar panels subsidising the wealthy who can. Nice.

[GrahamPlatt]

Is that 6.8% net of what you could get investing that £4k or £5k? If it doesn’t take account of the alternative use of the money then that return doesn’t sound great.

and the FIT payments are funded by electricity consumers, not the government.

So the poor who can’t afford solar panels subsidising the wealthy who can. Nice.

Or perhaps subsidised by those who think 6.8% isn't enough?

[scrumpyjack]

about 13% of electricity bills is for greenwash schemes

[BullDog]

In my case the return is made up of ......the reduced use of grid electricity & the FIT payments, which are in two parts (UK Gov' & energy supplier).

But unless you have a time machine those arrangements are not available now, so any consideration for an installation now should be based on what they are now.

But you can get paid for your exported solar power now. Octopus pay 5p per kWh and OVO pay 4p per kWh. This is via a SEG (Smart Export Guarantee), and is the replacement for the old FIT. It is paid on the actual power that you export, so you need a Smart meter to get the SEG tariff. Note also, the SEG provider does not need to be the same as your power provider. I get gas and electricity from Octopus, and use OVO's SEG to get paid for my excess solar power. I don't pay any money to OVO, I just receive payments from them!

The 6.8% return I quoted above is based on savings from solar on power imported and SEG payments for exported solar.

If you have a south facing roof, and £4k or £5k to spare, I would definitely go for it.

FD

Is that 6.8% net of what you could get investing that £4k or £5k? If it doesn’t take account of the alternative use of the money then that return doesn’t sound great.

and the FIT payments are funded by electricity consumers, not the government.

So the poor who can’t afford solar panels subsidising the wealthy who can. Nice.

Presumably the money spent (I hesitate to use the word invested at this point) on the PV panels, installation, inverter, cleaning, maintenance depreciates to zero over say, 20 years? If if isn't already included in the annual return from the PV installation, that's going to knock a hole in the return? Perhaps the fact that the panels etc have a finite life is included already.

Myself, I still struggle to make the sums add up when I can get a reasonable return by buying renewable energy investment trust shares and using the dividends to put towards my electricity bill. I will do the sums again later in the year when the increases in domestic energy tariffs works through.

Given my shares in renewable energy firms should still be there when the PV system is scrapped, I think it is still going to be a challenging case for domestic PV at my humble abode with no suitable South facing roof.

[scrumpyjack]

So far I have had no costs other than the original installation. The inverter failed after 3.5 years but was replaced under guarantee. I think the expected life is at least 25 years though the inverter probably won't last that long. I have never had to clean mine. The rain does that. I recall reading somewhere that the panels may eventually become less efficient (80% of original output). The FIT etc only lasts 25 years.

Mine have been going for over 10 years with no apparent reduction in output.

[scotview]

I have not as yet installed solar panels or batteries.

My main driver to install solar will come when I need to renew our roof tiles, particularly the top 5 or 6 courses. The recent storms may make this more imminent if we have tile failures. We will install integrated solar panels which will negate the need for roof tiles.

As for batteries, there a some blockers on that decision:
1 Payback period.
2 Possible BEVs being able to feed back to house supply. We have an ID3 BEV and VW have stated that the 2022 models will have bidirectional feed.
3 Another reason for battery installation is to provide backup supply in the event of a power cut, particularly to run the central heating boiler (60 watts). I still haven't had any real assurance that a satisfactory and safe earthing system can be provided when the grid breaker is opened.

So, still a few unknowns.

[anon155742]

about 13% of electricity bills is for greenwash schemes

Its 25.48%

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/infographic-bills-prices-and-profits#Plain-text%20version%20infographic

[scrumpyjack]

about 13% of electricity bills is for greenwash schemes

Its 25.48%

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/infographic-bills-prices-and-profits#Plain-text%20version%20infographic

Ah the website I looked at is obviously woefully out of date!

[daveh]

about 13% of electricity bills is for greenwash schemes

Its 25.48%

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/infographic-bills-prices-and-profits#Plain-text%20version%20infographic

Ah the website I looked at is obviously woefully out of date!

Surprisingly it's only about 2% for gas and about 15% for dual fuel. Seems a bit odd that the green measures and social measures are loaded on electricity and not gas.

[funduffer]

In my case the return is made up of ......the reduced use of grid electricity & the FIT payments, which are in two parts (UK Gov' & energy supplier).

But unless you have a time machine those arrangements are not available now, so any consideration for an installation now should be based on what they are now.

But you can get paid for your exported solar power now. Octopus pay 5p per kWh and OVO pay 4p per kWh. This is via a SEG (Smart Export Guarantee), and is the replacement for the old FIT. It is paid on the actual power that you export, so you need a Smart meter to get the SEG tariff. Note also, the SEG provider does not need to be the same as your power provider. I get gas and electricity from Octopus, and use OVO's SEG to get paid for my excess solar power. I don't pay any money to OVO, I just receive payments from them!

The 6.8% return I quoted above is based on savings from solar on power imported and SEG payments for exported solar.

If you have a south facing roof, and £4k or £5k to spare, I would definitely go for it.

FD

Is that 6.8% net of what you could get investing that £4k or £5k? If it doesn’t take account of the alternative use of the money then that return doesn’t sound great.

The 6.8% return I quoted is just the savings in the first year I have had the solar panels divided by the amount invested (£274/£4005).

This more or less matches the busines case given to me by the installer, but is just the first year of ownership.

If I do an XIRR calculation based on the 25 year business case given to me by the installer, I get an XIRR of 13.9%.

I am not saying this is better than investing in other ways, but it is something that you can do towards global warming that doesn't cost you money in the long run.

Having said that, you need a good roof and a 25+ year life expectancy!

FD

[daveh]

The 6.8% return I quoted is just the savings in the first year I have had the solar panels divided by the amount invested (£274/£4005).

This more or less matches the busines case given to me by the installer, but is just the first year of ownership.

If I do an XIRR calculation based on the 25 year business case given to me by the installer, I get an XIRR of 13.9%.

I am not saying this is better than investing in other ways, but it is something that you can do towards global warming that doesn't cost you money in the long run.

Having said that, you need a good roof and a 25+ year life expectancy!

FD

But presumably not such a good outcome without the FITs payments and I thought they went out a few years ago. I thought what you get now is about 4 to 5p per unit for any power exported plus a saving of the ~20p per unit that is charged by your grid supplier for the amount of solar that displaces power you previously bought from the grid.

I wish at times that I'd investigated fitting panels when you got a decent fits payment plus the export payment, but I didn't as I was/am worried about the state of my roof and assumed once the panels are fitted any roof repairs become much more difficult and costly.

As an aside I also think the export payment at 4-5p/unit is a bit stingy when the the companies are selling you electricity at 20p/unit you'd have thought they'd offer around 8-10p at the moment which would still give them a 100% markup. I guess they are not really interested in small producers like home owners exporting small amounts of power.

[scrumpyjack]

I thought what you get now is about 4 to 5p per unit for any power exported plus a saving of the ~20p per unit that is charged by your grid supplier for the amount of solar that displaces power you previously bought from the grid.

I wish at times that I'd investigated fitting panels when you got a decent fits payment plus the export payment, but I didn't as I was/am worried about the state of my roof and assumed once the panels are fitted any roof repairs become much more difficult and costly.

As an aside I also think the export payment at 4-5p/unit is a bit stingy when the the companies are selling you electricity at 20p/unit you'd have thought they'd offer around 8-10p at the moment which would still give them a 100% markup. I guess they are not really interested in small producers like home owners exporting small amounts of power.

The export credit is based on 50% of what you generate, irrespective of how much you actually export (unless you choose to have an export meter). I use everything that is generated but still get the export payment even though I don't export anything.

[wanderer]

The export credit is based on 50% of what you generate, irrespective of how much you actually export (unless you choose to have an export meter). I use everything that is generated but still get the export payment even though I don't export anything.

Not any more; the rules changed several years ago.

[richlist]

There has always been lively debate about the cost effectiveness of solar panels and that will probably continue. I think the reason people have such diverse opinions about wether it's worthwhile is because we are all in a different position financially.

If a solar installation was going to cost £5K and it was your only £5K which you might need to put toward a car, a holiday, a new kitchen etc etc then there are a whole bunch of reasons you might not think solar is right for you. More so if you don't have a spare £5K and need a loan to finance it. Others who have spare money not needed for other projects who see inflation eating away at their wealth might take a totally different position when solar offers a very attractive return.

[funduffer]

The 6.8% return I quoted is just the savings in the first year I have had the solar panels divided by the amount invested (£274/£4005).

This more or less matches the busines case given to me by the installer, but is just the first year of ownership.

If I do an XIRR calculation based on the 25 year business case given to me by the installer, I get an XIRR of 13.9%.

I am not saying this is better than investing in other ways, but it is something that you can do towards global warming that doesn't cost you money in the long run.

Having said that, you need a good roof and a 25+ year life expectancy!

FD

But presumably not such a good outcome without the FITs payments and I thought they went out a few years ago. I thought what you get now is about 4 to 5p per unit for any power exported plus a saving of the ~20p per unit that is charged by your grid supplier for the amount of solar that displaces power you previously bought from the grid.

I wish at times that I'd investigated fitting panels when you got a decent fits payment plus the export payment, but I didn't as I was/am worried about the state of my roof and assumed once the panels are fitted any roof repairs become much more difficult and costly.

As an aside I also think the export payment at 4-5p/unit is a bit stingy when the the companies are selling you electricity at 20p/unit you'd have thought they'd offer around 8-10p at the moment which would still give them a 100% markup. I guess they are not really interested in small producers like home owners exporting small amounts of power.

The thing is, when the FIT payments were being offered a few years ago, a solar installation cost >£10K. Now it is <£5K for the same power. You should be able to get an installation for <£1K per kWP. (My 4.225kWp system cost £4k a year ago)

I currently only get 4p per kWh for my exported power, which I agree is a bit stingy, when electricity costs 15-20p per kWh to buy. Last year I exported 68% of my solar power (for which I received 4p per kWh) and used the remaining 32% in the home (for which I saved 15p per kWh).

With current electricity prices going through the roof, I would have hoped the export (SEG) rates would also go up, but I am not holding my breath.

FD

[steelman99]

Thanks everyone for their views

I Installed solar panels in the early days when they cost £13k , back in 2011 , In those 10 yrs ive covered the cost of the pannels with FIT payments ,in fact as of today im £1500 up on my original investment , plus theres whatever electric i got off the pannels so now the FIT is all profit. and it looks like im going to be getting over 60p per unit of electric from the FIT.
The thoughts on batterys was just how much more i would save by adding batterys - asked for a smart meter and EDF messed it up , got one for gas but not for electric , once i know how much im sending back guess i will have more idea about batterys

[DrFfybes]

Surprisingly it's only about 2% for gas and about 15% for dual fuel. Seems a bit odd that the green measures and social measures are loaded on electricity and not gas.

I wish they did do a FIT for gas.

If I plumbed the dog in as wel I'd be rich.

[scotview]

I have recently looked at home EPC (Energy Performance Certification). Installation of Solar panels is usually quoted as a recommended upgrade which improves the EPC score by about 5 points. Surprisingly, I haven't seen solar batteries mentioned.

Have read articles the last few days about electricity "surge" pricing using smart meters to smooth the grid performance. Also mentioned is the use of BEV batteries to help with grid stabilisation. So that could be a whole new ball game.

I think we are just at the beginning of electricity tariff reviews and tampering. It's all a bit of an energy maelstrom.

I do miss the input from dspp. His insights would be great at this time.