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New energy tariffs - real info please ?

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AF62
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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#490886

Postby AF62 » April 1st, 2022, 5:13 pm

scotview wrote:
AF62 wrote: with many suffering from insufficient heating,


I don't wish to come across as uncaring but there is another side to this equation. Rachel Reeves was on the telly demanding a windfall tax. Oil & Gas companies are fundamental to the provision of energy supply.

They are not charities, they are businesses like M&S, Glaxo, HBOS etc.

Oil & Gas isn't magicked up, there is huge risk in exploration, appraisal, ,development, production then decommissioning. The Oil Companies take all the business and safety risk. Their tax bill is also not insignificant.

If oil and gas prices go up then that is a market thing, supply & demand as it has always been. Alleviation of energy costs in not the oil companies' responsibility, it is the Government's. The only other path is the rocky road of nationalisation. Scary.

Sorry if this comes across as uncaring, it isn't meant to be.


The ‘windfall tax’ is just pandering to their core voters, and of course makes no sense - but political soundbites rarely do - £350 million a week for the NHS…

The windfall tax would obviously only fall on North Sea production as trying to tax anything else quite simply wouldn’t work, but of course they haven’t calculated their windfall tax numbers based on that production because they don’t actually know the level of profit on that production.

And frankly if I was an oil company that would be taxed to death on oil and gas sold into the market at the same price as non-taxed overseas produced oil and gas being sold into the UK - well I would just leave it in the ground until there was a more favourable political environment, and that isn’t going to help the UK to reduce energy costs.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#490903

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 1st, 2022, 6:20 pm

NotSure wrote:
AF62 wrote:
And that is before the expected 50% increase again in October - it is going to be a *very* difficult time for many people.


A 'First World' lifestyle is very expensive. We have long mitigated this by spreading the costs of things like education, health services, police etc. such that those better placed to pay shoulder more of the burden. Is power next? I am not a socialist but I am struggling to see how we can avoid helping some towards provision of basic energy needs without increasingly large chunks of the population 'starving' (energy-wise).


We already do, with things like "warm homes discount" (and they're doubling down on that with the doubling of standing charges to socialise greater costs). That's how social programmes work: you allocate a budget and pick a few lucky winners to receive help. That way you can have matching outrage in two directions: about deserving cases who struggle, and about undeserving cases who "play the system" to get help.

As for heating, that really is a First-World-21st-Century problem. Could even the Queen have heated her home last century to the levels the Chattering Classes now tell us we're entitled?

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#490907

Postby AF62 » April 1st, 2022, 6:35 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:Could even the Queen have heated her home last century to the levels the Chattering Classes now tell us we're entitled?


Of course she could - flog a few diamonds and bits of land her ancestors killed their rivals for.

Anyway it’s perfectly easy and quite reasonably priced to heat *some* homes to that level because they are modern properties with excellent insulation. The problem is most housing stock in the UK doesn’t mean that criteria.

Fortunately for the Chattering Classes they have sufficient money to pay for heating whatever sort of property they have, and it is the Muttering Classes who don’t have those resources that are in deep doo doo.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#490914

Postby scotview » April 1st, 2022, 7:08 pm

AF62 wrote:Fortunately for the Chattering Classes they have sufficient money to pay for heating whatever sort of property they have, and it is the Muttering Classes who don’t have those resources that are in deep doo doo.


Is that not the crux of the matter. We are now only beginning to see the true and quite severe "inequality" within our society. I personally have not got a clear understanding of just how far Gov. support can stretch before something gives.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#490935

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 1st, 2022, 9:59 pm

scotview wrote:
AF62 wrote:Fortunately for the Chattering Classes they have sufficient money to pay for heating whatever sort of property they have, and it is the Muttering Classes who don’t have those resources that are in deep doo doo.


Is that not the crux of the matter. We are now only beginning to see the true and quite severe "inequality" within our society. I personally have not got a clear understanding of just how far Gov. support can stretch before something gives.


You may have only just seen it.

I - along with many others - have never indulged in 21st-century levels of heating. We were never that rich. And I don't imagine I was the only Fool to have had ice on the inside of the windows of my childhood home when it gets a bit chilly.

Indeed, perhaps the coldest place I've lived was my third-year college room in that supposed bastion of privilege, Cambridge. The cold stones of outward-facing F corridor of Girton College. Stories set in public schools tell of similar: the sons of the rich apparently weren't pampered with modern heating! None of us lived in the totally unsustainable bubble of the last few years.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#490944

Postby scotview » April 1st, 2022, 10:51 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:You may have only just seen it.


Hold on there , Uncle E.

My upbringing was NE Scotland. It wisnae for the saft or couthy chiel, my guid an' trusty freen. I've tholed mony a richt cald' sair e'en an' blait' chilled nicht wi' ma beens sair throu' wi' wierysome caul' a' the sair nicht.

My point is that with all these people heating to 22 degrees, how on earth will the Gov. sustain their tropical standard of living.

My dear freen, please be advised with oor zone heating we bide in roomy's that are toasty and exceeding warm while keeping heating bawbees screwed sairly tae' the mast heed.

How a these peer folkies will cope and survive escapes my limited mental capacity.

Just saying.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#491016

Postby gryffron » April 2nd, 2022, 9:48 am

scotview wrote:I don't wish to come across as uncaring but there is another side to this equation. Rachel Reeves was on the telly demanding a windfall tax. Oil & Gas companies are fundamental to the provision of energy supply.
They are not charities, they are businesses like M&S, Glaxo, HBOS etc.
Oil & Gas isn't magicked up, there is huge risk in exploration, appraisal, ,development, production then decommissioning. The Oil Companies take all the business and safety risk. Their tax bill is also not insignificant.

And of course the real owners of these rewards are not the companies, but their shareholders. Including the Pension funds of Labour’s beloved “working class”.

Gryff

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#491235

Postby airbus330 » April 3rd, 2022, 1:52 pm

So a real life example.
I took up the limited oppotunity to go on an Octopus 3yr Fix. The rates are just under the new April cap but backdated to the 6th March, My usage in Kwh was almost identical in Feb and March. Quite a scary uplift, even if you can afford it.

Feb March
Gas 114.41 155.39
Elec 85.18 139.94

tot 199.59 295.33

Tariff 31.15/kwh 24.86/day elec
7.24/kwh 26.10/day gas

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#502467

Postby pje16 » May 24th, 2022, 12:48 pm

Energy cap to rise more than was predicted
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61562657

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#502473

Postby XFool » May 24th, 2022, 1:12 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
scotview wrote:Is that not the crux of the matter. We are now only beginning to see the true and quite severe "inequality" within our society. I personally have not got a clear understanding of just how far Gov. support can stretch before something gives.

You may have only just seen it.

I - along with many others - have never indulged in 21st-century levels of heating. We were never that rich. And I don't imagine I was the only Fool to have had ice on the inside of the windows of my childhood home when it gets a bit chilly.

Yes, yes! But that was then - when the daily milk (and more) was delivered by horse drawn wagons - and we listened to "the wireless". This is now...

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#502562

Postby xeny » May 24th, 2022, 8:49 pm

XFool wrote:Yes, yes! But that was then - when the daily milk (and more) was delivered by horse drawn wagons - and we listened to "the wireless". This is now...


Thermodynamics hasn't changed over that period. We've just seen a brief period of possibly unsustainably cheap energy.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#502563

Postby XFool » May 24th, 2022, 8:51 pm

xeny wrote:
XFool wrote:Yes, yes! But that was then - when the daily milk (and more) was delivered by horse drawn wagons - and we listened to "the wireless". This is now...

Thermodynamics hasn't changed over that period. We've just seen a brief period of possibly unsustainably cheap energy.

I'm none too sure we can look to Thermodynamics for answers in the current situation.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#502882

Postby scotview » May 26th, 2022, 8:55 am

I will move to a default tariff beginning of June, with a significant increase in my annual bill. I now have the answer to my original question.

I read an article that Sunak is considering a £10 billion package of support for folks on means tested benefits.

Could you help me figure out the ethics of the government pursuing a green energy policy and at the same time leaving viable, cheap, UK energy resources untapped.

Why are energy costs going to be subsidised, they are a commodity.

By the way, I still think that energy prices are very cheap, compared to other far less essential stuff.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#502966

Postby xeny » May 26th, 2022, 2:44 pm

scotview wrote:Could you help me figure out the ethics of the government pursuing a green energy policy and at the same time leaving viable, cheap, UK energy resources untapped. .


Could you help me figure out the ethics of the government pursuing an expedient energy policy that makes an increasingly immediate atmospheric CO2 problem worse?

The details of the subsidy are now available. Personally I'd rather the rebate wasn't there for exorbitantly large energy bills as it would provide more incentive for people to apply themselves to reducing their consumption. As an example a colleague (living in a reasonably large semidetached house) has an £8000 estimated bill under the older price cap. The cost is at least giving him a reason to look at how he is using that much energy.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#502970

Postby pje16 » May 26th, 2022, 3:00 pm

xeny wrote:
scotview wrote:As an example a colleague (living in a reasonably large semidetached house) has an £8000 estimated bill under the older price cap.

He must be leaving the heating and lights on 24/7 (or be throwing fivers on the fire :lol: )

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#503016

Postby UncleEbenezer » May 26th, 2022, 5:07 pm

xeny wrote:
scotview wrote:Could you help me figure out the ethics of the government pursuing a green energy policy and at the same time leaving viable, cheap, UK energy resources untapped. .


Could you help me figure out the ethics of the government pursuing an expedient energy policy that makes an increasingly immediate atmospheric CO2 problem worse?

The details of the subsidy are now available. Personally I'd rather the rebate wasn't there for exorbitantly large energy bills as it would provide more incentive for people to apply themselves to reducing their consumption. As an example a colleague (living in a reasonably large semidetached house) has an £8000 estimated bill under the older price cap. The cost is at least giving him a reason to look at how he is using that much energy.


The future is Somebody Else's Problem. It never gets priority. Whereas today's details are something to move the News Agenda on from Sue Gray.

The big problem now is that energy has been far too cheap for a long time, as noone has paid the costs for pollution. If it had risen in a controlled manner over the years - c.f. John Major's Fuel Price Escalator (RIP) for one major energy subsector - we'd now be leading lower-energy lifestyles, and could have decades of mainstream investment in energy efficiency behind us.

And if last year's price had been several time higher then the government might legitimately react to a shock by reducing taxes now to smooth out the current rise.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#503062

Postby xeny » May 26th, 2022, 8:04 pm

pje16 wrote:He must be leaving the heating and lights on 24/7 (or be throwing fivers on the fire :lol: )


I find the psychology of it interesting. The bill last year before the first price cap increase must have been pretty scary, but clearly not scary enough to encourage him to do anything about it. When I spoke to him about it a couple of weeks ago he didn't even know if the cause was high gas or electricity consumption. The annual bill with the updated cap is going to be quite something.

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#503065

Postby doolally » May 26th, 2022, 8:28 pm

pje16 wrote:
xeny wrote:
scotview wrote:As an example a colleague (living in a reasonably large semidetached house) has an £8000 estimated bill under the older price cap.

He must be leaving the heating and lights on 24/7 (or be throwing fivers on the fire :lol: )

Or it's a semidetached medieval castle
doolally

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#503067

Postby NotSure » May 26th, 2022, 8:29 pm

doolally wrote:
pje16 wrote:
xeny wrote:
scotview wrote:As an example a colleague (living in a reasonably large semidetached house) has an £8000 estimated bill under the older price cap.

He must be leaving the heating and lights on 24/7 (or be throwing fivers on the fire :lol: )

Or it's a semidetached medieval castle
doolally


With a huge cannabis farm in the dungeon?

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Re: New energy tariffs - real info please ?

#503659

Postby steelman99 » May 29th, 2022, 7:24 pm

Just been offered a new fixed deal by EDF, my present supplier which is about 22% per unit dearer than my present prices

Looking quite attractive when compared to the predictions of of 40 or 50% price rises in October. We dont use a lot of gas in a summer , and the solar & Battery's will keep the electric bills down for the rest of summer. We are only running a bill of around £40 per month at the moment , and £23 of that is standing charges , so with £18 of actual fuel, a 22% increase in unit costs will add around £4 per month until july , gamble is that I will be better off next winter if the unit rate is increased by more than 22%

Having said that Im still expecting the gas to be around £200 a month in the winter months , Might be going to Weatherspoons and making that refillable coffee last all day to keep the heating bills down


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