Energy costs. Oh dear.......

[UncleEbenezer]

Could your fridge or freezer be faulty and not cycling ? If either are running continuously would that account for the high energy use ? You could turn your freezer off for 2 or 3 hours (on a timer) to see if that makes a difference. It should maintain temperature with the door closed.

Thanks for the suggestion. No, none of three cooling appliances are running continuously. If they were, it would be very obvious as we have temperature displays which would head towards the South Pole.

Not if the appliance itself was knackered. Typical cause would be loss of some of the coolant: then it'll work ever harder for ever less effect.

How does that monitor react to turning things on and off? Whether short-term high usage (the kettle) or long-term steady usage (leave the lights on)? What's the contribution from electronic entertainment and computing devices: could something be running full-throttle when it's supposed to be on standby?

My usage, including working from home: computer on most of the time, lots of kettle use, etc. Cooking and shower all-electric too. Quarterly bill. Guess the year.

[BullDog]

Could your fridge or freezer be faulty and not cycling ? If either are running continuously would that account for the high energy use ? You could turn your freezer off for 2 or 3 hours (on a timer) to see if that makes a difference. It should maintain temperature with the door closed.

Thanks for the suggestion. No, none of three cooling appliances are running continuously. If they were, it would be very obvious as we have temperature displays which would head towards the South Pole.

Not if the appliance itself was knackered. Typical cause would be loss of some of the coolant: then it'll work ever harder for ever less effect.

How does that monitor react to turning things on and off? Whether short-term high usage (the kettle) or long-term steady usage (leave the lights on)? What's the contribution from electronic entertainment and computing devices: could something be running full-throttle when it's supposed to be on standby?

My usage, including working from home: computer on most of the time, lots of kettle use, etc. Cooking and shower all-electric too. Quarterly bill. Guess the year.

Thanks for the interest. I know the three cooling devices are all working well. I have measured them with a stand alone thermometer(s). It's the kind of thing that engineers do when they buy something new (less than a year ago) and it has digital displays for temperature!

Guilty of being a bit anal about domestic white goods. I found the (also new less than a year ago) ovens ran way hotter when they were set to 200 degrees C. A warranty claim got them adjusted. Thanks again.

[Mike4]

So..... It seems the Octopus EV tariff without the need for a new smart EV charger is the way to go. There's a four hour period each night where the electric tariff is 7.5p per unit. So, in fact that's a bit more than half what we presently pay to charge the PHEV (presently 14p a unit at any time). It does however mean that we will have to be disciplined and set the PHEV to charge only on the four hour period.

One side benefit of the non smart EV tariff is that Octopus will not be able to determine that we can timeshift the washing machine, dishwasher and the tumble drier to that four hour period too. So we can choose to run the appliances at night on 7.5p per unit should we be disciplined enough to do so. Faced with upwards of 40p a unit, I think we're going to have to get used to the mild inconvenience.

An aside. We have discovered that while we're asleep, we have a 0.5kw base load through the night (and day, obviously). This must be the refrigerator, the freezer and the wine cooler. So, running those is going to increase from 7p per hour to around 20p for 20 hours every day. Nothing we can do about that other than get rid of those three appliances. And that's not going to happen.

If I may be so bold as to make a few comments here. Obviously I do not know your personal circumstances, but I got rid of my tumble drier when it broke down and have not replaced it (nor missed it). They use a lot of electricity. A wine cooler? Who are you catering for? My fridge does the job.

Using a dishwasher and washing machine at night seems superficially a good idea, until, that is, something goes wrong and you are wakened by your fire alarm or, at least as bad, water everywhere. It happens.

Dod

Thank you for your concern. The tumble drier is a state of the art heat pump drier and on the occasion it gets used, I suppose we'll have to save up to pay the bill. All the white goods in the house are all less than a year old and are premium quality, quite low risk of a fire really. I dare say you have a wine cellar, whilst us mere plebeian types have to use something else to store the wine.

Well there you are. As I said I do not know your personal circumstances. Actually my cool garage serves as a wine cellar but I do not drink a lot anyway, although I do use a lot of ice cubes!

I have a couple of fridge/freezers but I do not think they use much electricity.

Dod

Dod

I suspect you might be shocked, especially if they are a number of years old. I was actually surprised at the baseload of our cooling appliances. They're all the latest technology appliances by Liebherr, don't really come any more efficient, presently anyway.

I agree. When I lived on the boat and generated all my own electricity, I naturally became very aware of what was using what, and I'd say my basic 12Vdc under-counter fridge used 75% of all the electrical power I generated and consumed. It was by far the most electricity-hungry device in the boat.

[brightncheerful]

fascinating thread.

it is almost 50 years since I bought my first house and in all that time whenever I have moved home I have stayed with the electricity supplier that came with the property. In London (first house,I cannot remember the supplier name, might've been London Electricity Board (LEB)). After moving out of London I went with npower whose successors are Eon. And throughout I have only been on a standard variable tariff. (Except when we had a shop - business customers pay higher charges than domestic (residential) and I fixed the tariff for 3 years having predicted I would be getting a bargain (it took about a year until I was right).

Last week, i decided to switch to Octopus Energy and the transfer is underway. Based on last month's bill (the most recent) I worked out that it would have been approximately £3 cheaper to have been with OE. However, as I told the person at OE, the difference is that it is not Eon.

So far I have received one email from Eon asking if they have done something to upset me and if so perhaps they could put it right, Or maybe I have switched by mistake (easily done apparently) in which case not to late to stay with them. I have been thinking whether to reply to Eon and if so whether words like 'puerile' would be any use but on balance i am not going to waste any more time.

Having been with npower for years it annoyed me that Eon address me by my first name without my permission when npower were content with Dear Mr ....; also that I am obliged to pay monthly when with npower I paid every 3 months; if I don't send them a meter reading on time then I have to pay their estimated amount often too much, that i find their bills difficult to understand; that i was told on one occasion that because i was a few days overdue (their email demand had slipped through the net) I would have to pay that day or else £10 a day extra until I did; and every so often I receive some silly email from them written in a patronising style about nothing to do with payments; that i would have to be on facebook or twitter to enter a competition to win £100's worth of free electricity; and after bombarding me with emails about having a smart meter i then get a letter encouraging me to have a s/m fitted, that my power would only be off for 1 hour, that the s/m wouldn't work for a few weeks anyway, etc. The most recent s/m reminder tells me I can avoid the hassle of having to do a manual meter reading myself but I don't find it a hassle; …

OE I have discovered are one of 6 businesses in the Octopus Investment Group, of which Octopus Renewables Infrastructure Trust plc (ORIT) is quoted on the London stock exchange - DYOR. The div yield is 4.5% pa div quarterly so I have bought a few shares to help offset our energy bills which have so far increased by some 50% since April. For years my monthly budget for electricity was £300 but the actual cost around £60 enabling me to use the difference for other expenses. Now that the actual is increasing with more to come I never imagined it would get anywhere near £300 so in due course I shall ask OE to install a smart meter and change from standard variable to OE's Agiletariff so I can 'gamble' on the wholesale electricity market - the meter takes readings every 30 minutes - the charge geared to the wholesale price of electricity which varies daily. (Currently, I'm told the charge is about 35p but in more normal times around 20p and less.)

Two years ago, when we were intending to move home and got an EPC, the LED lighting and TRV on radiators were said to be the reason for an EPC in Band C. I need to check the EPC register but would think there are not many, if any, other C band houses in our road, mostly they are D. Combined with a more energy efficient property and an electricity supply charges geared to wholesale prices I would think a selling point.

[AF62]

so in due course I shall ask OE to install a smart meter and change from standard variable to OE's Agiletariff so I can 'gamble' on the wholesale electricity market - the meter takes readings every 30 minutes - the charge geared to the wholesale price of electricity which varies daily. (Currently, I'm told the charge is about 35p but in more normal times around 20p and less.)

Make sure you pick the OE tariff you think you are picking.

OE Agile varies its price every 30 minutes based on the wholesale price and can go negative - yesterday’s electricity price was minus 4.63p/kWh between 14:30 and 15:00 but by 18:30 it was back to a positive 32.04p/kWh.

Whereas OE Tracker varies its price daily based on the wholesale price and doesn’t go negative - the whole of yesterday was 13.41p/kWh.

Agile is fine if you are happy shifting your usage - avoiding cooking your dinner between 5pm and 8pm, or suddenly putting the washing machine on at 2pm, or quickly plugging your car in - but for many it is a bit too much hassle.

[UncleEbenezer]

So far I have received one email from Eon asking if they have done something to upset me and if so perhaps they could put it right, Or maybe I have switched by mistake (easily done apparently)

You may jest, but there have been stories floating around of highly-focussed salesmen who will switch you by stealth. You think you're signing up for ... who knows what ... and find you've switched supplier.

Though having said that, this is a recollection from quite a few years back (probably Blair or Cameron era), and Ofgem were supposed to be clamping down on it. So who knows?

[BullDog]

So........ We are signing up with Octopus Energy on one of the EV tariffs. We have signed up from July for 37.5p (15p) electricity fixed one year. 00.30 to 04.30 7p electricity. Gas at 7p (3p) not fixed. Current tariffs for reference in brackets.

We have delayed start functions on the dishwasher, tumble drier and washing machine. We will be running those as far as possible only on the 4 hour EV tariff rate. Nephew has a referral code so that works OK too.

Thanks for the comments to date.

[scotview]

So........ We are signing up with Octopus Energy on one of the EV tariffs.

Will you need to install their smart meter ?

[BullDog]

So........ We are signing up with Octopus Energy on one of the EV tariffs.

Will you need to install their smart meter ?

The SMETS 2 meter we have already is fine for Octopus. OVO installed it less than a year ago. We have not gone with a tariff that needs us to change our perfectly fine Podpoint EV charger, we keep that for the PHEV. We set the EV charge timer either on the EV or on the Podpoint (but not both!) to start charging at 00.30 and switch off at 04.30.

Being able to run white goods in that 7p per unit four hour period too is a useful bonus. Overall between July and October when the gas will increase again we guess our energy bill will be about 2x what it was last year. After October who knows? It's going to go up again in October and likely again in January 2023. Our electric is fixed until July 2023 but to fix the tariff for the gas was entirely unrealistic at today's fixed rate offers.

[BullDog]

And, in preperation for the new electrical tariff we have been running our appliances overnight on the time delay to see how it worked. Now bearing in mind our tariff is 15p per unit and that we have modern, energy efficient machines I was surprised that one cycle of the dishwasher costs about 50p and one cycle of the washing machine costs about 60p.

So, if we use the appliances on the new tariff during the day where the unit price is 37.5p, my cost of running these appliances is going to increase by precisely 150%. So 50p becomes 125p and 60p becomes 150p Per machine cycle

From now on we're using the delay start timer to run the appliances only between 00.30 and 04.30am on the 7p tariff. I never imagined we would have to do this.

I encourage others to take a look at how much it's costing to run their domestic white goods. You might be shocked.

[richlist]

We turn our washing m/c & dishwasher on at 12 noon to benefit from the free solar power which is usually at it's height at noon.
The sun comes up quite early at this time of year and by 9.30am our domestic hot water has already reached its thermostatic setting, powered by solar. Solar panels are great asset at this time of year.

[scotview]

Solar panels are great asset at this time of year.

There are pro-active, cost conscious folkies on this board. It is becoming apparent to me that, on the energy front at least, there is now a growing gap between those who can and those who can't (or who cannot afford to).

Dont think there's much our leaders can do to help in a permanent way either......interesting times

[BullDog]

Solar panels are great asset at this time of year.

There are pro-active, cost conscious folkies on this board. It is becoming apparent to me that, on the energy front at least, there is now a growing gap between those who can and those who can't (or who cannot afford to).

Dont think there's much our leaders can do to help in a permanent way either......interesting times

It would have been a massive help to us all if successive administrations had implemented a proper long term domestic energy security strategy. Rather than letting a powerful but very small minority green lobby be in control of the country's energy policies. And yes, I am all in favour of renewable energy policies. But as part of a highly diverse energy supply strategy that includes nuclear, advanced thermal power, tidal, off peak energy storage and above all with everything as far as possible being supplied from here within the UK or from long term proven dependable trade partners. I am afraid on most of those, the UK rates about 2 out of 10.

[Stompa]

And, in preperation for the new electrical tariff we have been running our appliances overnight on the time delay to see how it worked. Now bearing in mind our tariff is 15p per unit and that we have modern, energy efficient machines I was surprised that one cycle of the dishwasher costs about 50p and one cycle of the washing machine costs about 60p.

So are you saying one cycle of your washing machine is using 4kWh? That seems an awful lot, how are you measuring it?

FWIW my (probably not very efficient) washing machine has a nominal power rating of 2.3kW, and according to the technical spec:

"Energy consumption: standard 60 °C cotton programme 0.64 kwh full load and 0.53 kwh partial load and 40 °C cotton programme 0.51 kwh partial load".

[BullDog]

And, in preperation for the new electrical tariff we have been running our appliances overnight on the time delay to see how it worked. Now bearing in mind our tariff is 15p per unit and that we have modern, energy efficient machines I was surprised that one cycle of the dishwasher costs about 50p and one cycle of the washing machine costs about 60p.

So are you saying one cycle of your washing machine is using 4kWh? That seems an awful lot, how are you measuring it?

FWIW my (probably not very efficient) washing machine has a nominal power rating of 2.3kW, and according to the technical spec:

"Energy consumption: standard 60 °C cotton programme 0.64 kwh full load and 0.53 kwh partial load and 40 °C cotton programme 0.51 kwh partial load".

Yes, it does, doesn't it? The readings are taken off the remote monitor which piggy backs wirelessly off the SMETS2 smart meter. Slightly lower reading off running the dishwasher. I have yet to run the heat pump tumble drier on it's own to see what it uses. But the message is clear. The values may not be absolutely accurate, but we really do have to get used to the inconvenience of running our white goods on the delay start timer. Fortunately they all have one built into them.

[Stompa]

Yes, it does, doesn't it? The readings are taken off the remote monitor which piggy backs wirelessly off the SMETS2 smart meter. Slightly lower reading off running the dishwasher.

But doesn't that give the consumption for the entire house? Are you just measuring the consumption with the washing machine on, then subtracting the consumption (for a similar period of time) with the washing machine off?

[BullDog]

Yes, it does, doesn't it? The readings are taken off the remote monitor which piggy backs wirelessly off the SMETS2 smart meter. Slightly lower reading off running the dishwasher.

But doesn't that give the consumption for the entire house? Are you just measuring the consumption with the washing machine on, then subtracting the consumption (for a similar period of time) with the washing machine off?

Between 00.30 and 04.30am there's the selected appliance and the fridge + freezer. We can see the consumption over night and we can see for each 30 minute time slot what the draw is on the meter. So, overnight we can see when the washing machine turns on and off and we know from previous nights when only the fridge + freezer were running what to allow for them. So, it's not like a performance test that you'd run for a contractual requirement! But for understanding domestic power and cost, I think it's enough to persuade us that running the white goods on the delay start timer is worth the inconvenience.

It might be enlightening if other members here could post their findings from running their appliances and see what they find. FWIW, the three white goods, washing machine, dishwasher and heat pump drier are all modern appliances made by Miele. How Miele stacks up against other brands energy consumption I have no idea.

[funduffer]

Yes, it does, doesn't it? The readings are taken off the remote monitor which piggy backs wirelessly off the SMETS2 smart meter. Slightly lower reading off running the dishwasher.

But doesn't that give the consumption for the entire house? Are you just measuring the consumption with the washing machine on, then subtracting the consumption (for a similar period of time) with the washing machine off?

Between 00.30 and 04.30am there's the selected appliance and the fridge + freezer. We can see the consumption over night and we can see for each 30 minute time slot what the draw is on the meter. So, overnight we can see when the washing machine turns on and off and we know from previous nights when only the fridge + freezer were running what to allow for them. So, it's not like a performance test that you'd run for a contractual requirement! But for understanding domestic power and cost, I think it's enough to persuade us that running the white goods on the delay start timer is worth the inconvenience.

It might be enlightening if other members here could post their findings from running their appliances and see what they find. FWIW, the three white goods, washing machine, dishwasher and heat pump drier are all modern appliances made by Miele. How Miele stacks up against other brands energy consumption I have no idea.

Hi bulldog, we also have the Octopus EV tariff from Sept 2021 (15p daytime, 5p between 00:30 and 04:30). We have also started running the dishwasher, breadmaker and washer in the overnight cheap period (as well as charging the EV when we need to). It is a great tariff, and hats off to Octopus for getting this working, provided of course you have a working SMETS2 smart meter.

I must admit your usage from the dishwasher/washer does look high. We have relatively new white goods, a Bosch dishwasher and a Miele washer. Compared to nights when we run nothing we only add 2kWh or so when we run a couple of these appliances. We do use the Eco cycles, which may make a difference.

The car charging is wonderful. You can add >100miles range in the 4 hour period overnight equivalent to about 1.25p a mile, which is incredible. A petrol/diesel car running at 50mpg and paying £2/l for fuel would be paying 18p a mile or so. It meets all our local motoring needs, without much daytime charging. We have solar panels as well, and export maybe 2/3 of our output and currently receive 4p per kWh for this from an OVO SEG. I like to think we are selling power to the grid in the summer/daytime for 4p, and buying it back overnight at 5p. So really the power at night is only costing us 1p per kWh. This would be 0.25p a mile for the EV!

It will be interesting to see how these sort of tariffs evolve as EV usage builds up, and competition increases.

FD

[BullDog]

Yes, it does, doesn't it? The readings are taken off the remote monitor which piggy backs wirelessly off the SMETS2 smart meter. Slightly lower reading off running the dishwasher.

But doesn't that give the consumption for the entire house? Are you just measuring the consumption with the washing machine on, then subtracting the consumption (for a similar period of time) with the washing machine off?

Between 00.30 and 04.30am there's the selected appliance and the fridge + freezer. We can see the consumption over night and we can see for each 30 minute time slot what the draw is on the meter. So, overnight we can see when the washing machine turns on and off and we know from previous nights when only the fridge + freezer were running what to allow for them. So, it's not like a performance test that you'd run for a contractual requirement! But for understanding domestic power and cost, I think it's enough to persuade us that running the white goods on the delay start timer is worth the inconvenience.

It might be enlightening if other members here could post their findings from running their appliances and see what they find. FWIW, the three white goods, washing machine, dishwasher and heat pump drier are all modern appliances made by Miele. How Miele stacks up against other brands energy consumption I have no idea.

Hi bulldog, we also have the Octopus EV tariff from Sept 2021 (15p daytime, 5p between 00:30 and 04:30). We have also started running the dishwasher, breadmaker and washer in the overnight cheap period (as well as charging the EV when we need to). It is a great tariff, and hats off to Octopus for getting this working, provided of course you have a working SMETS2 smart meter.

I must admit your usage from the dishwasher/washer does look high. We have relatively new white goods, a Bosch dishwasher and a Miele washer. Compared to nights when we run nothing we only add 2kWh or so when we run a couple of these appliances. We do use the Eco cycles, which may make a difference.

The car charging is wonderful. You can add >100miles range in the 4 hour period overnight equivalent to about 1.25p a mile, which is incredible. A petrol/diesel car running at 50mpg and paying £2/l for fuel would be paying 18p a mile or so. It meets all our local motoring needs, without much daytime charging. We have solar panels as well, and export maybe 2/3 of our output and currently receive 4p per kWh for this from an OVO SEG. I like to think we are selling power to the grid in the summer/daytime for 4p, and buying it back overnight at 5p. So really the power at night is only costing us 1p per kWh. This would be 0.25p a mile for the EV!

It will be interesting to see how these sort of tariffs evolve as EV usage builds up, and competition increases.

FD

Thanks. I am doubtful about the accuracy of the wireless monitor that is fed remotely from the smart meter. I think it's just indicative rather than accurate. Presumably, the actual meter itself is accurate and that's what gets fed to the supplier.

[funduffer]

Yes, it does, doesn't it? The readings are taken off the remote monitor which piggy backs wirelessly off the SMETS2 smart meter. Slightly lower reading off running the dishwasher.

But doesn't that give the consumption for the entire house? Are you just measuring the consumption with the washing machine on, then subtracting the consumption (for a similar period of time) with the washing machine off?

Between 00.30 and 04.30am there's the selected appliance and the fridge + freezer. We can see the consumption over night and we can see for each 30 minute time slot what the draw is on the meter. So, overnight we can see when the washing machine turns on and off and we know from previous nights when only the fridge + freezer were running what to allow for them. So, it's not like a performance test that you'd run for a contractual requirement! But for understanding domestic power and cost, I think it's enough to persuade us that running the white goods on the delay start timer is worth the inconvenience.

It might be enlightening if other members here could post their findings from running their appliances and see what they find. FWIW, the three white goods, washing machine, dishwasher and heat pump drier are all modern appliances made by Miele. How Miele stacks up against other brands energy consumption I have no idea.

Hi bulldog, we also have the Octopus EV tariff from Sept 2021 (15p daytime, 5p between 00:30 and 04:30). We have also started running the dishwasher, breadmaker and washer in the overnight cheap period (as well as charging the EV when we need to). It is a great tariff, and hats off to Octopus for getting this working, provided of course you have a working SMETS2 smart meter.

I must admit your usage from the dishwasher/washer does look high. We have relatively new white goods, a Bosch dishwasher and a Miele washer. Compared to nights when we run nothing we only add 2kWh or so when we run a couple of these appliances. We do use the Eco cycles, which may make a difference.

The car charging is wonderful. You can add >100miles range in the 4 hour period overnight equivalent to about 1.25p a mile, which is incredible. A petrol/diesel car running at 50mpg and paying £2/l for fuel would be paying 18p a mile or so. It meets all our local motoring needs, without much daytime charging. We have solar panels as well, and export maybe 2/3 of our output and currently receive 4p per kWh for this from an OVO SEG. I like to think we are selling power to the grid in the summer/daytime for 4p, and buying it back overnight at 5p. So really the power at night is only costing us 1p per kWh. This would be 0.25p a mile for the EV!

It will be interesting to see how these sort of tariffs evolve as EV usage builds up, and competition increases.

FD

Thanks. I am doubtful about the accuracy of the wireless monitor that is fed remotely from the smart meter. I think it's just indicative rather than accurate. Presumably, the actual meter itself is accurate and that's what gets fed to the supplier.

Bulldog, you can cross check it against the actually usage shown in your Octopus bill. If you open the bill and scroll down you should see all the half hourly usage data. This is the data Octopus have read directly from your meter.