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Moving to all Electric

Making your money go further
taken2often
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#413723

Postby taken2often » May 20th, 2021, 11:39 pm

Another update. after 200 days my daily energy cost is £1.58 per day, over the past week this dropped down to £0.70 this includes standing charge. If this continues I could save about £1000 per year on my energy cost.

After some casual research and I have just invested in an ETF. That Hydrogen is going to be the main energy product of the future shared by various renewals. So the gas boiler is safe for ever more. It will start with a blend of 20% Hydrogen and 80% Natural Gas. They even have a name for it BLUEH2. This kicks off a massive saving in CO2. The main boiler companies have all developed Hydrogen boilers and no doubt the cooking equipment manufacturers will be doing the same. Conversion kits should be available. This allows the utilisation of the thousands of miles of gas pipe worth billions to be used. The other big plus is that over time the production of hydrogen will consume all spare renewable energy. It can also be used in all forms of transport. so when the battery, an invironmental disaster in the making is finally addressed, there is a solution.

The Government has been quite about this , but have been preparing the way

JohnB
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#413727

Postby JohnB » May 21st, 2021, 12:05 am

Blue hydrogen is made from natural gas with carbon capture, a very uncertain technology, and is not good for the environment. Only green hydrogen fron electrolosis is, and the 3.3 times inefficiency compared with heat pumps does not make it attractive.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#413773

Postby JohnB » May 21st, 2021, 9:16 am

Given your expertise, I would appreciate your comments on this September 2020 paper. http://www.csrf.ac.uk/2020/09/hydrogen-for-heating/

Carbon emissions due to the Blue Hydrogen process are not zero. Carbon capture from flue gases is not a perfect process. There are a number of available methods and technologies. In general, the higher the effectiveness of carbon capture, the more energy it takes and the less efficient the SMR process becomes [11]. Figure 4 includes one version of the SMR+CCS process, (‘SMR with CO2 capture from flue gas using mono-ethanolamine’), from [11]. This is the most effective available CCS process and results in 90% of Carbon being captured from the SMR. However, this particular SMR+CCS process has an energy efficiency of only 69%. Other SMR+CCS processes have higher energy efficiencies (up to 76%) but CO2 capture rates as low as 53% (ie 47% of carbon escapes into the atmosphere). See [11] for details.

Using data from Table 3 in [11] it is possible to calculate the CO2 emissions from several different available SMR+CCS processes. The range of results is plotted as a horizontal shaded area on Figure 3. It can be seen that the most effective CCS process will emit the same amount of CO2 as a heat pump in 2021 but forever after, it will emit more carbon than a heat pump. The level of fugitive carbon emissions would make it impossible to reach the net zero carbon commitments of the UK government. The worst SMR+CCS process generates carbon emissions nearly as high as a natural gas boiler.

Conclusion: If heat was provide by Blue Hydrogen boilers, fugitive emissions of CO2 would always be significant- at least 10% of the carbon in the input methane, which would prevent ‘net zero’ emissions targets being reached. This contrasts with the heat pump route which would have decreasing emissions with time, reaching near zero by 2040.

It seems that Blue Hydrogen is not so green after all!

Mike4
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#413777

Postby Mike4 » May 21st, 2021, 9:37 am

There was an interesting programme on R4 yesterday discussing various options, including a couple I've not heard of before.

Water-filled redundant coal mines seem to be viable as heat sources for heat pumps for domestic heating systems. A lot of cities are located where they are due to coal mining so have convenient redundant mines close by.

Synthetic petrol. A chap was interviewed who was using carbon capture from the atmosphere and combining the carbon with hydrogen to make synthetic petrol, diesel, avgas etc. I was driving and only half listening so may have bits of this wrong. He may have just been claiming this is viable rather than actually doing it.

"Inside Science"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000w5j9

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#413794

Postby JohnB » May 21st, 2021, 10:04 am

ethanol is already added to petrol, and the government have recently mandated increasing the percentage from 5 to 10%, but not all cars can use it.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emis ... ffect-you/

swill453
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#413796

Postby swill453 » May 21st, 2021, 10:07 am

JohnB wrote:ethanol is already added to petrol, and the government have recently mandated increasing the percentage from 5 to 10%, but not all cars can use it.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emis ... ffect-you/

Driving in France and Spain over the last few years, E10 is sometimes all you can get.

Scott.

taken2often
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#414049

Postby taken2often » May 21st, 2021, 11:41 pm

Thanks for your responses and I have no technical knowledge or wish to dispute your knowledge. I am investing on the basis that something has to be pumped through the network. I think its going to be hydrogen/natural gas. I am staggard that you would believe any politician who states that we will have zero carbon at any time. If you have a logical alternative let us hear it. There is of course Nuclear to boost the electric systems, but you really need two choices. I can even see Fracking on the cards once once the reality of future energy cost hit home. Greens good until your cold.

Mike4
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#414052

Postby Mike4 » May 21st, 2021, 11:52 pm

JohnB wrote:ethanol is already added to petrol, and the government have recently mandated increasing the percentage from 5 to 10%, but not all cars can use it.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emis ... ffect-you/



Is ethanol the same thing as methanol then? We were discussing methanol previously.

Isn't methanol the same thing as the "methylated spirits" one uses to run one's Mamod steam engines?

Imbiber
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#414081

Postby Imbiber » May 22nd, 2021, 8:41 am

Methylated spirits is 90% ethanol. But don't try drinking it.

https://youtu.be/ep2I3Gf3Sec

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#414174

Postby UncleEbenezer » May 22nd, 2021, 3:44 pm

Methanol (and alcohols in general) don't have the energy density of hydrocarbons (oil etc) and burn much cooler. But they do emit CO2 on burning.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#414236

Postby Johnspenceuk » May 22nd, 2021, 9:02 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
JohnB wrote:ethanol is already added to petrol, and the government have recently mandated increasing the percentage from 5 to 10%, but not all cars can use it.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emis ... ffect-you/



Is ethanol the same thing as methanol then? We were discussing methanol previously.

Isn't methanol the same thing as the "methylated spirits" one uses to run one's Mamod steam engines?

Ethanol C2H6O

Methanol CH3OH

To clarify IIRC ethanol is c2h5oh it has many other names including grain alcohol. Also benzene the chemical is not the same as benzine a component in the blending of motor spirit.


RVF

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#418536

Postby funduffer » June 10th, 2021, 9:02 am

I have enjoyed this thread, especially the posts on heat pumps.

There has been very little discussion of ground source heat pumps (GSHP's).

To my mind, leaving aside installation costs for now, GSHP's should overcome the main issue with Air Source Heat Pumps in that the latter don't work well when it is cold outside - precisely when you need the heating!

Surely, the temperature 70m below ground level is fairly stable and warm throughout the year and should provide efficient heating in even the coldest weather? Ever been down a coal mine in winter - it is pretty warm!

Does anyone here have any experience with GSHP's?

FD

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#418539

Postby James » June 10th, 2021, 9:24 am

Imbiber wrote:Methylated spirits is 90% ethanol. But don't try drinking it.


I was once advised, late at night in a near abandoned railway station by someone who looked like he would know, that a scrape or two of shoe polish makes it entirely more palatable.

richlist
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#418570

Postby richlist » June 10th, 2021, 11:15 am

It depends on how you define ashp don't work well at low temperature.
I have an ashp in Spain that works very nicely at or below freezing.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#418599

Postby scrumpyjack » June 10th, 2021, 1:01 pm

I have an ASHP and I gather the multiple of electricity in to kw of heat output varies between about 3 times and 5 times depending on the air temperature. Obviously a metre or so below the ground the soil temp will be much more even. (I don't think one goes down 70 m unless it is a vertical installation perhaps?). The 2 problems with GSHP are much higher installation cost and most properties don't have enough available ground around them in which to lay the pipes. My ASHP is for the pool heating but if I eventually have to replace my oil boiler (used for the house), I would probably go for a GSHP, but I'm not sure they get the water temp up nearly high enough for the current radiators etc to be effective. Maybe they will have improved by then?

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#418604

Postby Spet0789 » June 10th, 2021, 1:07 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:I have an ASHP and I gather the multiple of electricity in to kw of heat output varies between about 3 times and 5 times depending on the air temperature. Obviously a metre or so below the ground the soil temp will be much more even. (I don't think one goes down 70 m unless it is a vertical installation perhaps?). The 2 problems with GSHP are much higher installation cost and most properties don't have enough available ground around them in which to lay the pipes. My ASHP is for the pool hating but if I eventually have to replace my oil boiler (used for the house), I would probably go for a GSHP, but I'm not sure they get the water temp up nearly high enough for the current radiators etc to be effective. Maybe they will have improved by then?


GSHP work well for new builds on generous plots where the ground / soil is suitable and where you’re digging everything up anyway. Problem is that planning rules dictate such a high density for new developments that often they don’t work.

In my view, for the majority of developments, ASHP plus electric heating for when it’s really cold (air temps below zero) does the job better.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#418631

Postby funduffer » June 10th, 2021, 2:36 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
70m depth doesn't sound much like a typical domestic installation in a person's garden?

RVF


As I understand it, GSHP's use pipes buried in the garden. They can be laid horizontally a metre or two below the surface, or if space is limited, vertically downwards to a depth of 50-70m or so.

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice ... eat-pumps/

I think the cost of the vertical borehole is probably more expensive, but is the only option if you have a small garden, or you don't want it all dug up.

Seems like a better solution, although if a pipe goes, it is a big job to fix.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#418664

Postby Johnspenceuk » June 10th, 2021, 4:26 pm

funduffer wrote:I have enjoyed this thread, especially the posts on heat pumps.

There has been very little discussion of ground source heat pumps (GSHP's).

To my mind, leaving aside installation costs for now, GSHP's should overcome the main issue with Air Source Heat Pumps in that the latter don't work well when it is cold outside - precisely when you need the heating!

Surely, the temperature 70m below ground level is fairly stable and warm throughout the year and should provide efficient heating in even the coldest weather? Ever been down a coal mine in winter - it is pretty warm!

Does anyone here have any experience with GSHP's?

FD


Hi

About 8 years ago I worked on a homeless persons unit extension in Blackburn, West Lothian for the local authority where they used ground source for heating, The design was for 10 bores @ 100m but was changed to 5@200m If I remember it was easy drilling (no rock) which can increase the time and costs the project architect told me it worked very well delivering 4-5 to 1 all day everyday and they were very happy with the results. The only other GSHP installations I have heard of have been loop systems laid between .75m & 1.5m with varying degrees of success.
My own home which I built about 3 years ago was intended to have heating by air source but I was unconvinced that it would supply the heating requirements so finally opted for oil. I understand a couple of neighbours have ASHP one is very happy the other intends to replace it I have been told.

John
Last edited by Johnspenceuk on June 10th, 2021, 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#418667

Postby Johnspenceuk » June 10th, 2021, 4:40 pm

Snorvey wrote:Is that air to air ASHP or air to liquid? The former is simpler (just an air conditoning unit as I understand it), whilst the latter is eye wateringly expensive?


That was air to water which I think it would need to be if it is used for domestic hot water as well as space heating.

John

taken2often
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#425676

Postby taken2often » July 7th, 2021, 8:11 pm

Thought I would give you a bit of an update. The post has drifted far and wide, but interesting. E'on who I moved to on the 30th October 2020 say that my usage to the 3rd June is 1KWH. So I should be delighted. They reduced my monthly payment from £41 to 29 and now tell me that they owe me about £300 approx. I have tried to contact them since early February no Joy. Did make contact with a very nice man based in South Africa who arranged within minutes the fitting of a smart Meter. This done 3rd June. I did not think that I would take much notice of it, but in fact it has made me more energy efficient. No heating on at present but running cost of new system really good, but a big bill lurking out there perhaps.

I am still convinced that my new system is better than the old GAS/Electric The gas standing charge represents about 11% of my daily electric cost
no repairs or service. Been watching YOUTUBE sites relating to boiler problems and there can be many. If one of my heater stops working I have another 5.

I now more strongly believe that the new gas boilers will work on either 20% Hydrogen or 100%. This is the only system that will keep the Pipe Grid working. Todays gas boilers will disappear but the newer ones will have conversion kits or fully Hydrogen. Question because gas is price by Calorific value will 20% Hydrogen cost more.

The capital cost, Service and repair for the other systems will be high. So I sdtill think electric radiators and water tanks is the way forward. You have total control.

I noticed a comment about air sourced heat pumps. The happy camper probly used a high low temperature system where as the not so happy camper has a time clock.


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