Moving to all Electric

[Mike4]

Surely, aren't we approaching the point where people start waking up to the truth that if poorer people in the UK can't get cheap fuel and cheap personal transport, they will face a future of having to do without.
At that point, democratic politicians will worry a lot about getting re-elected.
All electric is a non starter in the UK even for the distant future. I wouldn't be making plans or spending money on the assumption that either gas or oil are on the way out.

This is my view too. When I did my gas training and exams back in 2001 the trainers kept telling us gas was a dying industry about to be phased out in the next few years. And look what happened. Condensing boilers were introduced and stupidly hailed as "the future which will save the environment".

My view is there are no viable alternatives to gas and oil heating at the moment and no matter what huffing and puffing we have from the environmentalists and woke politicians, neither will be discontinued and the public forced to sit in cold houses and flats. Political suicide for any party implementing this without providing an alternative and affordable other way of heating our houses and cooking in our kitchens and restaurants.

[dspp]

Another reply that just disappeared. .

t2o
Looking at the Mod panels I cannot see any Modding activity, so whatever you wrote the first simply didn't make it to the TLF server.
regards,
dspp

[dspp]

Surely, aren't we approaching the point where people start waking up to the truth that if poorer people in the UK can't get cheap fuel and cheap personal transport, they will face a future of having to do without.
At that point, democratic politicians will worry a lot about getting re-elected.
All electric is a non starter in the UK even for the distant future. I wouldn't be making plans or spending money on the assumption that either gas or oil are on the way out.

This is my view too. When I did my gas training and exams back in 2001 the trainers kept telling us gas was a dying industry about to be phased out in the next few years. And look what happened. Condensing boilers were introduced and stupidly hailed as "the future which will save the environment".

My view is there are no viable alternatives to gas and oil heating at the moment and no matter what huffing and puffing we have from the environmentalists and woke politicians, neither will be discontinued and the public forced to sit in cold houses and flats. Political suicide for any party implementing this without providing an alternative and affordable other way of heating our houses and cooking in our kitchens and restaurants.

Mike4,
There is a very real choice between short term political suicide and actual long term species suicide. So far politicians prioritise their short term personal survival.
regards,
dspp

[taken2often]

I do not disagree with you, it would be madness, but that is what is happening it appears to be religion over logic and it is being drummed into children that burning carbon is bad, so politicians follow trends. Hopefully this bubble will burst.

I disagree that electric is not viable. I have changed over based on cost. I had a 24 year old boiler, pilot light and not very efficient. My gas and electricity was running at £165 per month. A listed 2 bedroom flat with large single glazed windows and high ceilings. So I had to do something to reduce the cost, and try to future proof my needs.

Since switching over 30th October I have completed 95 days average 12.49 KWH I also changed suppliers for reduced rates KWH + standing charge is £2.07 per day this equals £196.00 for just over 3 winter months. In fact my Winter fuel allowance of £200 wipes this out.

My heating is on 24/7 minimum 15 degree's the Hall runs at 21 from early morning till 11pm then 18 degrees as radiator also services the bathroom
rooms in use run at 21. I am retired so I use one bedroom as an office and I am at home most days. I am very pleased with the results. The changeover costs were less than the cost of the holidays I missed last year.

The question is still what will you do if fossil fuels are banned.

[malakoffee]

I guess that as long as conventional economics allows us to ignore the environmental damage, then burning fossil fuels will remain the obvious choice for many.

It is unfortunate that fossil fuels have raised our expectations of "living standards" so high that even educated, adaptable ( but otherwise puny ) humans find it difficult to accept that all things must change - in a non-trivial way.

I suspect that the ancient Greeks have already written a play about this (?) . . . . The humans somehow acquire the power of the gods, become corrupted and addicted to that power leading to their own self-destruction . . .

where the power-of-the-gods = fossil-fuel energy.

[Nimrod103]

I had a 24 year old boiler, pilot light and not very efficient. My gas and electricity was running at £165 per month. A listed 2 bedroom flat with large single glazed windows and high ceilings.

I find this astonishing. My gas+electricity costs average about £100/month for a 5 bedroom detached. We don't have any other form of heating because my wife dislikes open fires. For various reasons our house is not as well insulated as it could be - e.g. we don't have cavity wall insulation because I think it would lead to damp penetration, and it would be expensive to install in this house anyway..

How can you get to £165/month for a 2 bedroom flat?

[Nimrod103]

I guess that as long as conventional economics allows us to ignore the environmental damage, then burning fossil fuels will remain the obvious choice for many.

It is unfortunate that fossil fuels have raised our expectations of "living standards" so high that even educated, adaptable ( but otherwise puny ) humans find it difficult to accept that all things must change - in a non-trivial way.

I suspect that the ancient Greeks have already written a play about this (?) . . . . The humans somehow acquire the power of the gods, become corrupted and addicted to that power leading to their own self-destruction . . .

where the power-of-the-gods = fossil-fuel energy.

This all sounds very good, but my question was how do you tell poor people in the UK that it is they who will have to do without?

[richlist]

One could argue that there are few poor people in the uk......compared to Victorian times when poor meant poor.

The answer to your question is .....we must continue to try to raise the living standards of the poorer members of society.

[dealtn]

One could argue that there are few poor people in the uk......compared to Victorian times when poor meant poor.

The answer to your question is .....we must continue to try to raise the living standards of the poorer members of society.

How does making illegal the cheaper forms of energy, transport etc. help achieve this?

[richlist]

Well the question was how do you tell poorer people they will need to go without.

If you raise their living standards so they don't need to go without, you don't need to tell them anything.

[AF62]

Funnily enough, in our middle 90's era 4 bed detached, which is reasonably but not overly insulated - We found very little difference, if any, between heating the house twice per day say 6:30 to 10:00 and 16:00 to 21:00 versus just leaving it on from 06:30 to 21:00. Just letting the heating cycle on the room thermostat (typically set to 21 degc) in the hall. It's a normal gas heating system with thermostats on each radiator but these are usually just left at maximum. Leaving the heating switched on overnight is seldom required, only in the coldest of cold snaps.

RVF

Similarish type of property, and out of interest, as I was going to be out of the house most of the day yesterday I thought I would see what the gas/electricity cost actually was between being home and having the heating on and being out so the heating was off whilst I was out.

The meter readings taken for both days with similar weather showed the saving with the heating turned off between 10 and 4 was 28p of gas and 10p of electricity.

[JohnB]

conventional economics

Conventional economics has been considering externalities (https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/glos ... rnalities/) for a 100 years now. So it hardly a new idea that the impact consumption has on others needs to be factored in. This is one of the key reasons why governments need to step in and regulate markets, and in this case the regulation will be to ban all power sources bar electricity to achieve the net-zero carbon emissions goal. There will always be exceptions, which will be handed by carbon capture, reforestation and the like, but don't be deluded that your gas boiler will be one of them.

[taken2often]

To Nimrod 103. The answer to your question would be The old boiler works at about 60% where as the newer one around 90% efficiency. I also keep my heating on 24/7. The supplier changed my monthly gas rate from £112.00 to 126 per month. This was their Loyalty bonus, and that's
what brought about the change.
So now I will have to change supplier every year. Use the KWH rate and standing charge rate, not their estimated usage rate.

Bob

[taken2often]

One new option may appear in the future, running your gas boiler on Hydrogen. In the past this was very expensive, but new systems are coming on line that could mean a supply of water and Photoelectric cells and electric supply could produce enough Hydrogen to run the heating and a car. I think expensive.

[scotview]

Really interesting discussion so far, thanks to all contributors.

We seem to be getting down to the minutiae of energy costs when comparing one system to another.

To put things into perspective, my personal annual energy cost is about the same my Sky & BT annual cost. Now, I could live without TV entertainment but losing heating and general energy is a different order of magnitude.

I would happily pay three or four times more to keep our house warm (and not freeze to death) but would happily give up on BT & Sky.

The thing is, when energy costs ramp up, as they will with a non-hydrocarbon strategy, how will the Government of the day accommodate REAL energy poverty.

[Mike4]

Really interesting discussion so far, thanks to all contributors.

We seem to be getting down to the minutiae of energy costs when comparing one system to another.

And don't we always!

Whenever reducing CO2 emissions gets discussed, it is usually not long before the conversation gets switched to reducing energy costs rather than CO2.

But then I suppose that is fair enough given the board this is on.

[88V8]

The electric grid cannot support a move to all-electric, let alone that and EVs.
And without grid-scale batteries I see no chance of it happening in the next decade.

Another point... the Economy 7 tariff was introduced to take advantage of cheap overnight nuclear power ... which is now being phased out.
E7 is exactly what one wants to run ufh and always-on systems, and to charge EVs at home, but the night discount is narrowing compared to the day rate. This is not helpful.

As regards electric radiators as a standalone, Which magazine did a comparison test on fourteen models last month. They comment that 'electric heating is 3-4 time more expensive than gas'.

They broke it down between three convectors, two oil-free radiators, three oil radiators and six fan heaters.
They heated 'a room' of undisclosed volume which made it a rather useless test in terms of deciding how many radiators one might need.

As regards comparison between models:
Best convector for energy use, speed of heating and even distribution was the Zanussi ZCVH4002 at £50.
Best oil-free, Dimplex ECR20 at £85
Best oil rad, the John Lewis SWIE 5NN £80
Best fan heater, the Challenge KPT-20008 at £30.

Best overall the Zanussi.

One would have thought that electric heaters were much of a muchness. The rads selected were probably a random sample, and there was no £££ attached to the energy cost comparisons so it might have been a few pence difference or several quid.
All in all a rather uninformative test feature, but it did highlight that there are differences and the takeaway for me is that if ever I were contemplating reliance on such things I would buy one and run it for a while before plumping for a house-full.

Whenever reducing CO2 emissions gets discussed, it is usually not long before the conversation gets switched to reducing energy costs rather than CO2. But then I suppose that is fair enough given the board this is on.

Yes, just as we should welcome much higher APD to deter flying, but of course we, or rather some of us, don't.

V8

[richlist]

Economy 7 prices are still quite attractive.
We have economy 7 in two of our properties, one with Octopus and one with EoN.

Both have a night rate of 54% of the day rate charge......I was surprised that two separate energy suppliers have the same differential.

[JohnB]

Wind turbines will be providing nighttime electricity.

All electric heating systems are equally efficient, 100%, where else do you think the power goes? They can be quieter or timeshift heat better of course. The exception is heat pumps which are 300-400% efficient.

If you have well insulated house that takes 24 hours to cool appreciably, you can choose to get top-ups whenever electricity is cheap, either at night, or when its windy/sunny. Like batteries, the thermal mass of houses will be good for demand regulation. I expect we will move from coarse day/night tarrifs to instantaneous ones, but that will need yet another generation of smart meters.

[dspp]

The electric grid cannot support a move to all-electric, let alone that and EVs.

V8

That's an interesting assertion, which I guess you mean in the context of the UK grid. Do you have any proper engineering calcs to support it, that is ones based on an understanding of the grid ?

(Warning : I make and sell HV grid stuff for a living, and - regrettably for my preferred business outcome - I think you are mostly wrong. Unfortunately my clients agree with me !)

regards, dspp