Council Tax Single Person Discount

[Violinista]

Hi there,

I've not been here for a while, but hoping someone might be able to advise. I have a query about Council Tax Single Person discount. I have a house, occasionally I let a room. While I have a lodger I pay full council tax. When I don't, I claim the Single Person discount.

A while back I got together with someone. He is amicably separated, still pays (all the) Council tax at the property he owns with his wife, votes there, has his driving licence, doctors etc registered there. When they split up some years ago, he bought a narrow boat, and we were living mostly on the boat. Then Covid hit, and it's difficult to have 2 of us working from a 6-foot square living area with mobile wifi, so we moved back to my house. I was paying full council tax while the lodger was there, but when she moved out in the summer, I applied for the single person discount. My thoughts being that he pays elsewhere. In fact twice, because his boat licence for continuous cruising includes a CT equivalent, as he pays Canal & Rivers Trust for rubbish collection etc etc. Simple question - am I breaking the law? We are both paying council tax, no council is losing out.

[dealtn]

"We moved back there ..." sounds to me like you live together, so you can't legitimately claim to live alone.

Why is he paying the Council Tax for the property owned with his wife, particularly if he no longer lives there himself, (and who lives there, and is that with a single person discount)?

[Lootman]

"We moved back there ..." sounds to me like you live together, so you can't legitimately claim to live alone.

That might be true but would the local authority ever be able to prove it given that "He . . . still pays (all the) Council tax at the property he owns with his wife, votes there, has his driving licence, doctors etc. registered there"? Presumably he does his tax return from that other address as well. What address does he use for motor insurance?

All the documentation would indicate that the OP lives alone and that her boyfriend lives elsewhere. And in my experience it is documentation that councils look at to make a determination. Similarly with the taxman where this issue sometimes arises.

In some cases of benefits fraud, investigators stake out a property to see who comes and goes. But I very much doubt that any council does that.

It really comes down to the definition of what it is to live somewhere and, in practice, it is usually based on the paperwork, plus the annual declarations made by each household about who lives there.

[monabri]

It's quite clear that you should be paying the full amount. How many people are living at your residence...two. What goes on at another house ( possibly in another council) is totally irrelevant.

[Lootman]

It's quite clear that you should be paying the full amount. How many people are living at your residence...two. What goes on at another house ( possibly in another council) is totally irrelevant.

I disagree. What we have here is 2 houses and 3 people. So by definition 1 of these 2 houses is entitled to a single person's discount. The real question therefore is which one.

It doesn't make any difference to the council, which will collect the same amount of tax either way. (If the properties are in 2 different councils then that complicates things, but that was not stated here and if the case then that is a dispute between the 2 councils).

Now, if I own 2 homes then I will have to pay council tax for both. Fine. But both cannot be my primary residence at the same time. So the real question is whether primary residence is an election I make? Or whether it is based on the documentation along with which house I normally return to, and those contradict each other at the moment.

[monabri]

I think we may need to agree to disagree. A council officer would not get into details of who lives elsewhere ... the conversation would simply focus on Violinista's property where 2 people reside. As I said, how many people live in V's House...one or two and what goes on elsewhere is not relevant.

Edit...if you owned a 2nd property ( eg holiday home) you might get hammered for 2x Full council tax as councils want to free up properties for hard working locals priced out of the market by rich folk who can afford more than 1 house.

[Lootman]

I think we may need to agree to disagree. A council officer would not get into details of who lives elsewhere ... the conversation would simply focus on Violinista's property where 2 people reside. As I said, how many people live in V's House...one or two and what goes on elsewhere is not relevant.

Let me clarify. The part of your post I was disagreeing with is the claim that "it doesn't matter" about the situation in the other house. I maintain that it does matter because one of these 2 homes gets the discount. If that council officer makes a determination that Violinista's property doesn't get the discount then he must apply that discount to the other property.

An obvious solution would be for this gentleman to offer to pay the difference at Violinista's property, and then claim the discount at his old home.

By the way, I asked the question about his motor insurance as it is risky to base your motor insurance on one property address but live in another, as a claim may be denied on that basis. Otherwise in my experience third parties don't really care what address you give them as long as you give them one you can receive post at.

[monabri]

I wouldn't disagree on the motor insurance point.....that's a pretty clear issue I'd say.

[Mike4]

There are all manner of iniquities at the margins of CT.

I have several narrowboats (all licenced) and if I choose to live in one for a while, my cottage would be empty leading to full council tax being due. Once I move back into the cottage I qualify for the 25% single person discount despite resuming using all the local services.

Bonkers, but I just live with it and pay the full CT regardless as a boater friend of mine also uses this as an accommodation address, even though she does not if fact live here on a day-to-day basis.

[Lootman]

There are all manner of iniquities at the margins of CT.

I have several narrowboats (all licenced) and if I choose to live in one for a while, my cottage would be empty leading to full council tax being due. Once I move back into the cottage I qualify for the 25% single person discount despite resuming using all the local services.

Bonkers, but I just live with it and pay the full CT regardless as a boater friend of mine also uses this as an accommodation address, even though she does not if fact live here on a day-to-day basis.

I also have use of an accommodation address, which doesn't present that problem because it is a private mailbox/brass plate kind of deal rather than a home.

There are only two problems I have discovered with using a postal address different from where I live. The first is the motor insurance issue that I mentioned earlier. We get around that by having both vehicles in my wife's name. The second is that when we sell our home the taxman might think it was not my primary residence and want CGT. However it will be easy enough to prove I lived there through personal testimony.

Interestingly I was recently able to renew both my passport and my DL card using the accommodation address. Neither actually asked where I lived, only asking for my "address", which is ambiguous.

We pay the full council tax of course, based on 2 adults. But I am not on the electoral roll. And the council does cross-check the council tax records against the electoral roll. I know this because I had a visitor from the council about that and telling me that it was illegal to not register to vote. Hence my comment earlier about how important the documentation is.

I gave this clerk my signature shoulder shrug with palms upward. He left and I never heard any more about it.

[Violinista]

Why is he paying the Council Tax for the property owned with his wife, particularly if he no longer lives there himself, (and who lives there, and is that with a single person discount)?

Why is that yours, or any council officer's business? If it is a case of fraud, then yes, a council official should be concerned, but it is far from clear that this is the case. I am asking the question because the actual circumstances mean that it is not clearcut.

According to an unrelated council's website, it comes down to where his 'main residence's is, and this is not clearly defined in law. https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/council-tax/contact-us-about-council-tax/sole-or-main-residence

According to this, in the majority of categories, his main residence is the house he jointly owns, where his documentation is, passport, driving licence etc. And no, as stated, his wife does NOT claim single person's discount, because he himself pays the fully amount. And have you ever tried using Go Compare with a canal boat as an address? I am not trying to defraud anyone, but I see no reason to pay more than I am required to.

[mc2fool]

According to an unrelated council's website, it comes down to where his 'main residence's is, and this is not clearly defined in law. https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/council-tax/contact-us-about-council-tax/sole-or-main-residence

According to this, in the majority of categories, his main residence is the house he jointly owns, where his documentation is, passport, driving licence etc. And no, as stated, his wife does NOT claim single person's discount, because he himself pays the fully amount. And have you ever tried using Go Compare with a canal boat as an address? I am not trying to defraud anyone, but I see no reason to pay more than I am required to.

I doubt that who pays alone determines occupancy, although it may be a factor in the decision. You will note that in the website you link to it says "we" (i.e. the council) decides on residence and that the items you list are things "we will take into account". In other words, they are not things for you to make a decision on.

If this is, indeed, a case of 3 people occupying 2 houses (you haven't been explicit about that) and they are both under the same council then the best thing, in order to guarantee being in a kosher position, would be just to write to the council and ask, for both households.

If they are both in the same council tax band, then you'll (collectively) end up paying the same total £ amount no matter which is declared the single occupancy residence, and you can just agree between you how that's split.

If they're not in the same council tax band then of course it will make a difference to the £ total which one the council decides is single occupancy (probably the one that gets them the most £ ), but at least you'll know that you'll be in the clear as far as not being at risk of fraud.

If the two aren't under the same council then my guess is that you'd be pretty much guaranteed that both councils will deny single occupancy .... !

[Lootman]

According to an unrelated council's website, it comes down to where his 'main residence's is, and this is not clearly defined in law. https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/council-tax/contact-us-about-council-tax/sole-or-main-residence

According to this, in the majority of categories, his main residence is the house he jointly owns, where his documentation is, passport, driving licence etc. And no, as stated, his wife does NOT claim single person's discount, because he himself pays the fully amount. And have you ever tried using Go Compare with a canal boat as an address? I am not trying to defraud anyone, but I see no reason to pay more than I am required to.

I doubt that who pays alone determines occupancy, although it may be a factor in the decision. You will note that in the website you link to it says "we" (i.e. the council) decides on residence and that the items you list are things "we will take into account". In other words, they are not things for you to make a decision on.

Yes but at the same time if the local authority cannot precisely define the rules for residency then they are effectively inviting home occupiers to make their own determination.

This whole "tell us all the facts and we will let you know" attitude is common amongst UK tax authorities but is not that helpful. And it rather lets people off the hook for any "fraud" allegations.

I agree with you that this will probably come down to which property is in the higher council tax band. But then that just goes to show how devious and self-serving the authorities are.

Given that there is a 99% probability that the LA will not question the information provided on the declaration forms for the two properties, and given the genuine ambiguity of the situation and the fuzziness of the residency rules, I would assess the problem here as being of trivial risk.

[Dod101]

Hi there,

I've not been here for a while, but hoping someone might be able to advise. I have a query about Council Tax Single Person discount. I have a house, occasionally I let a room. While I have a lodger I pay full council tax. When I don't, I claim the Single Person discount.

A while back I got together with someone. He is amicably separated, still pays (all the) Council tax at the property he owns with his wife, votes there, has his driving licence, doctors etc registered there. When they split up some years ago, he bought a narrow boat, and we were living mostly on the boat. Then Covid hit, and it's difficult to have 2 of us working from a 6-foot square living area with mobile wifi, so we moved back to my house. I was paying full council tax while the lodger was there, but when she moved out in the summer, I applied for the single person discount. My thoughts being that he pays elsewhere. In fact twice, because his boat licence for continuous cruising includes a CT equivalent, as he pays Canal & Rivers Trust for rubbish collection etc etc. Simple question - am I breaking the law? We are both paying council tax, no council is losing out.

My Council Tax Bill talks about a 'household', which in itself is a fairly woolly term. You get a discount inter alia, if you are the only adult in the household. The other points do not seem relevant. It follows that just because someone uses an address as a contact point does not, surely, make him/her an adult 'in the household.' In the circumstances outlined here, I think the wife should apply for the single person discount.

Violinista (great name!) should then inform her council that there are two persons living in her household. That seems the logical way out of the situation. It does not matter whether it is the same Council or two separate ones. In fact I think that the OP has been very honest in declaring her lodger! I doubt that many do.

Dod

[DrFfybes]

According to this, in the majority of categories, his main residence is the house he jointly owns, where his documentation is, passport, driving licence etc. And no, as stated, his wife does NOT claim single person's discount, because he himself pays the fully amount. And have you ever tried using Go Compare with a canal boat as an address? I am not trying to defraud anyone, but I see no reason to pay more than I am required to.

There are 2 adults living at your property, as there were when you had a lodger. Therefore no discount applies.

However there is only one adult living at the marital home, so he should claim the discount there.

The fact that he hasn't managed to sort himself out and put proper addresses on his documentation years after he separated is irrelevant.

Paul

[Lootman]

The fact that he hasn't managed to sort himself out and put proper addresses on his documentation years after he separated is irrelevant.

I am not aware of any legal requirement for an individual to use a "proper" address. In fact the word "proper" there seems undefined.

As I mentioned upthread, you are free to use any address you want for postal purposes. It does not have to be the address where you normally and primarily live. And I am aware of no circumstances in which there are any adverse consequences for so doing unless it is accompanied by some attempt at fraud, which is clearly not the case here. The vast majority of organisations that you deal with have no reason to know where you live - only how to reach you by mail.

Speculating, if this gentleman has recently moved in with a new partner then it might feel reassuring to him to keep his official address at the property that he owns, at least until such time as the new living arrangement feels stable and long-term. After all, if this new relationship does not work out then he would not want to have given two sets of address changes to the various organisations he deals with.

[didds]

Edit...if you owned a 2nd property ( eg holiday home) you might get hammered for 2x Full council tax as councils want to free up properties for hard working locals priced out of the market by rich folk who can afford more than 1 house.

.... or was bequeathed the 2nd home in a will when the former owner and oneself are just hard working locals etc etc yadda yadda.

didds

[stevensfo]

Edit...if you owned a 2nd property ( eg holiday home) you might get hammered for 2x Full council tax as councils want to free up properties for hard working locals priced out of the market by rich folk who can afford more than 1 house.

.... or was bequeathed the 2nd home in a will when the former owner and oneself are just hard working locals etc etc yadda yadda.

didds

In addition, I'd ask the question as to how those locals 'priced out of the market' are going to afford the house when the owners sell it?


Steve