Energy costs. Oh dear.......

[Tedx]

I'm sitting here right now in my wee office with nothing but the PC and my Aldi heated car seat cover and its perfectly cosy - despite the fact it's 2 degrees with snow flurries outside.

300w is pretty low cost heating.

We have an open plan living room with the stairs in the room. Above the upper landing is the loft. I was thinking of running the ductwork all the way up the outside wall, then along inside the loft and siting a single heater unit at the top of stairs on the upper ceiling to provide a passive heating/cooling source of sorts. Should be a run of less than 10 meters, which is acceptable from what I read.

Why not in the downstairs area? The wife doesn't like the look of the interior units. She just doesnt want one in the living room. So the more out of sight the better.

Ive not had any quotes for that though - I dont even know if its feasible. The council let you fit one exterior unit at the rear of the property under permitted developments, so thats ok.

Too many ideas in my head though!

[Dicky99]

We have new neighbours moving in soon. In the meantime, there are various trades people moving in and out of the property doing various things that they need to have done.

....including a new installation of gas central heating (the Gas workmen are currently digging up the road out side to extend the pipework to their house and there are gas heating engineers inside the property fitting it out)

...and it struck me that I haven't seen this kind of new installation thing happening for quite a long time (there was a time when it seemed that all the roads on our all electric development were being permanently dug up by gas engineers)

A sign of the times I guess - although I haven't seen too many heatpumps going into properties (other than new developments). Plenty of solar panels though.

I'm currently mulling a high heat retention storage heater conversion, a mini split air con unit and more insultation. Aerogel!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64636384

I have a concrete floor in my house and although I did put down the thickest underlay possible when we got new carpets, it has been suggested to me that lifting the carpets and insultating (with Aerogel or other material) would be a fairly significant benefit. Hmmm.

https://www.thermablok.co.uk/our-produc ... oor-board/

I came across Aerogel in 2016 when doing some retrofit works. It was difficult to obtain and very expensive but I thought it wouldn't be too long before demand would increase production, reducing the price, and then it would become a game changer, particularly for those period houses where you do not want to plonk rendered polystyrene on the external features. So it's dismaying to see that 7 years later it's still an expensive niche product for limited use.

I understand that the aerogel is so hydrophobic that when cutting it full paper overalls and mask are essential because trying wash the dust from skin and hair is a devil of a job.

[UncleEbenezer]

I'm sitting here right now in my wee office with nothing but the PC and my Aldi heated car seat cover and its perfectly cosy - despite the fact it's 2 degrees with snow flurries outside.

300w is pretty low cost heating.

Internal heating is my preferred solution. As a warm-blooded organism I have that capacity, so it's all about keeping it functioning well: primarily a healthy circulation (fresh air and exercise help - never close all the windows), but also a good layer of natural organic insulation - aka fat.

If I'm unwell, the internal heating can fail. I remember in particular a nasty bout of 'flu in February 2005, when I learned that the heating in the flat where I'd lived since 1999 didn't work.

[DrFfybes]

We have an open plan living room with the stairs in the room. Above the upper landing is the loft. I was thinking of running the ductwork all the way up the outside wall, then along inside the loft and siting a single heater unit at the top of stairs on the upper ceiling to provide a passive heating/cooling source of sorts. Should be a run of less than 10 meters, which is acceptable from what I read.

Physics may have moved on since I was at school, but I'm fairly sure the principle regarding hot air descending is as true now as when the Montgolfier brothers used it in 1783

You can get ones that vent through the wall/floor though.

Paul

[scotview]

Just for the record, wind power is contributing 3% of the energy mix right now.

https://gridwatch.co.uk/

[BullDog]

Just for the record, wind power is contributing 3% of the energy mix right now.

https://gridwatch.co.uk/

I keep an eye on the energy mix myself and it's very often the case that wind generation varies by a factor of 10 on the grid in one day. Without CCGT and OCGT generation the system would soon collapse.

[scotview]

I keep an eye on the energy mix myself

Have a look at France energy mix V UK energy mix right now.
https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/p ... rgy-source
https://gridwatch.co.uk/

France
Nuclear 71%
Hydro 12%
Gas 11%

UK
Gas 59%
Nuclear 11%
Biomass 6%

Both countries have adopted completely different strategies.

[DrFfybes]

Have a look at France energy mix V UK energy mix right now.
https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/p ... rgy-source
https://gridwatch.co.uk/

France
Nuclear 71%
Hydro 12%
Gas 11%

UK
Gas 59%
Nuclear 11%
Biomass 6%

Both countries have adopted completely different strategies.

Our will be a lot better once Hinkley Point comes online next year, erm 2027, erm, 2036 I think is now the target. And as for the budget....

Shame we didn't get some French Experts in to build it for us.

Paul

[BullDog]

I keep an eye on the energy mix myself

Have a look at France energy mix V UK energy mix right now.
https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/p ... rgy-source
https://gridwatch.co.uk/

France
Nuclear 71%
Hydro 12%
Gas 11%

UK
Gas 59%
Nuclear 11%
Biomass 6%

Both countries have adopted completely different strategies.

Indeed. I forget the name of the French politician who said something along the lines of - "the rosbifs have the oil and gas, but we have all the ideas". They were of course absolutely correct. Whilst we cancelled and dismantled our nuclear industry, we simultaneously developed the off shore industry and the revenues were used to pay the invalidity benefits to the millions of workers whose factory had closed. My home town was typical.

The result? Well, it's easy to see. We no longer have the ability in the UK to manufacture a power station, neither thermal nor nuclear. We import them.

And now much of our gas is imported from Norway or the USA and Qatar as LNG. And we import electricity from France too. Much as it hurts me to say, the French were right all along.

[Tedx]

Ok, so after scoping out the Home Energy Scotland website, I've been in talks with them about various improvements and incentives that are available. My initial route was to approach my local authority, but their funding has all been used.

So I have a HE Scotland consultant coming to see me.

So from my notes, they have a 'Grant and Loan' scheme. Essentially, this means:

A £7500 grant to install an air to water heat pump and central heating system, plus an up to £7500 interest free loan if required.

A £2500 grant to install solar panels plus an upto £2500 interest free loan if required
A £2500 grant to install a battery system plus an upto £2500 interest free loan if required

They dont provide solar grants without installing a 'green' heating system
You need an Energy Performance Certificate (EPC)

On the face of it, this seems incredibly generous. Googling around suggests that the heat pump type installation for my type of property would cost '£5,500 to £7,500' and provide annual savings of £790 to £1100 per year. So that grant would pretty much cover the full cost of the heat pump installation.

Regarding the solar panels, I had a quote from Scottish Power for a 3kw solar and a 5kw battery at £10,300 (which I think is a bit on the dear side), but using that as a bench mark, I'd need to find £5.3k to pay for the difference....BUT, I was planning on replacing the exisitng storage heaters with modern HHR heaters which I reckon would cost about £1800 fitted. So we're down to £3,500 .

Cost by various cost savings calculators and after all the insulating work that's been done, I'm pretty sure my electrictiy bill would be close to zero after all the works - and thats £1800 a year at current prices....so a 2 year payback or thereabouts.

And the HE Scotland guy says the money is there to be had. I'll report back when he's done his visit.

[Tedx]

I was actually just thinking if I could Stooz the £12.5k in interest free loans into some sort of high interest deposit bond ....that might be taking the piss though.....

[Tedx]

Just over 21GW of wind at the moment - close to an all time record for the UK

https://grid.iamkate.com/

...a fair difference from the last few days.

I don't think anyone can deny thats a useful chunk of energy that's being produced and I guess in 10 years time it could be over 60-80GW (or more) if the governments targets are met.

By then we might have cheap, viable grid scale storage options. Perhaps

[scotview]

I guess in 10 years time it could be over 60-80GW (or more) if the governments targets are met.

Aye but, who will run an 80 GW backup fleet of gas turbine generators and take on the risk of just in time gas contracts......probably the tax payer.

I'm not against progress and don't wish to come across as negative but all aspects of an energy strategy need to be clearly set out.

[DrFfybes]

Just over 21GW of wind at the moment - close to an all time record for the UK

https://grid.iamkate.com/

...a fair difference from the last few days.

I don't think anyone can deny thats a useful chunk of energy that's being produced

I can

Sure, today it is nice that we're getting almost half our generation from wind, but we're still generating 40% from Fossil fuels, and as wind is unpredicatble we're overgenerating so 20% of the wind production is surplus to requirements. So 'handy' yes, but as we're not making full use of it then not 'useful'. Now we could look at it as we're overgenerating from Fossil fuel by 25%, in which case the wind energy is a bad thing was we're wasting fossil fuel

By then we might have cheap, viable grid scale storage options. Perhaps

And there's the rub, until we get that, we still need the responsiveness and on demand power from Fossil Fuel, and that's where I think the efforts and subsidies should be going, improving storage and supply networking across Europe rather than funding foreign owned companies to control our energy supply.

Paul

[Nimrod103]

Just over 21GW of wind at the moment - close to an all time record for the UK

https://grid.iamkate.com/

Why are those figures much higher than Gridwatch, which shows 16.6 GW for the time in question?

[scotview]

I've attached a very interesting video of how domestic batteries are being used right now to help with balancing the grid during stressed periods. Now, I am not too sure that the grid should be run in such high risk mode but I am astonished how technology has and is developing so quickly. See link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4IQzEEaQa8&t=10s

I would tend to us my domestic battery storage to run my gas central heating electronics to keep the house warm, during a grid outage but that's another story.

[servodude]

I've attached a very interesting video of how domestic batteries are being used right now to help with balancing the grid during stressed periods. Now, I am not too sure that the grid should be run in such high risk mode but I am astonished how technology has and is developing so quickly. See link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4IQzEEaQa8&t=10s

I would tend to us my domestic battery storage to run my gas central heating electronics to keep the house warm, during a grid outage but that's another story.

What do you mean "high risk mode"?
The grid has forever been run in an uneasy risky fluctuating juggle of matching demand (prepping for kettles during half-time and at the end of Eastenders)

The use of distributed/local battery storage is one of the best ways to mitigate the risks involved; most of the techincal stuff was solved ages ago - notwistanding that things will get smaller and more efficient with more investment
In the first place it reduces the peak surges required (smoothing the demand to the property they are located at) and secondly they can be drawn on to provide power pretty much instantly (should the grid require feed in)

The more of these installed, and the more VTG becomes commonplace, the better for everyone (from an energy supply perspective)

The biggest issue is that this shift runs counter to how the market is perversely designed to work

[scotview]

What do you mean "high risk mode"?

Aye but when has the grid, up to now, ever given £30 (in pure desperation) to individual home owners to shove extra Watts into the grid at times of stress. Probably with grid control freaking out about about frequency control, voltage regulation or PF correction. I hope that my next BEV (probably Chinese) can shove AC direct to grid, at a guaranteed PREMIUM tariff , or it wont be getting the juice. Dont know what the energy illiterate and poor people will be doing, by the way, initiating an even wider disparity between the population haves and have nots.

As we move more demand to electrons, especially for dead of winter heating, what if individual consumers cant be bribed to part with their precious wee store of BEV energy for their heat pumps or gas boiler electronics and decide to keep it for themselves, to justify their investment and aforethought.

Lots and lots of new scenarios to consider.

[servodude]

What do you mean "high risk mode"?

Aye but when has the grid, up to now, ever given £30 (in pure desperation) to individual home owners to shove extra Watts into the grid at times of stress. Probably with grid control freaking out about about frequency control, voltage regulation or PF correction. I hope that my next BEV (probably Chinese) can shove AC direct to grid, at a guaranteed PREMIUM tariff , or it wont be getting the juice. Dont know what the energy illiterate and poor people will be doing, by the way, initiating an even wider disparity between the population haves and have nots.

As we move more demand to electrons, especially for dead of winter heating, what if individual consumers cant be bribed to part with their precious wee store of BEV energy for their heat pumps or gas boiler electronics and decide to keep it for themselves, to justify their investment and aforethought.

Lots and lots of new scenarios to consider.

Up till now?
I haven't designed any demand response systems for about 10 years; so that's how long I've known it was a thing.... and how long I've been getting spammed by the international org that's standardising the interface

Spot+ with feedin tariffs have been an offering for years.
It's been an easy thing to push given the reluctance to shift how the market prices energy - if you can't beat them... profit

Calling it "times of stress" seems a bit dramatic.. unless you also consider the post EastEnders cuppa a DDOS attack
It's how it's designed to work; the load goes up and down, and batteries mean you need to care less

[scotview]

Calling it "times of stress" seems a bit dramatic.. unless you also consider the post EastEnders cuppa a DDOS attack
It's how it's designed to work; the load goes up and down, and batteries mean you need to care less

Thanks for the reply. Well, you've got your viewpoint on how to run a grid and I've got mine, good debate.