Energy costs. Oh dear.......

[scotview]

A good metric is to look at the temperature decay over 5 hours, starting when it is roughly 20C indoors and 0C outdoors. (I.e. a cold winter night at bedtime!)

A temperature drop of 3C over 5 hours shows poor insulation

A temperature drop of 1.5C over 5 hours shows good insulation

FD

Thanks funduffer, interesting. I intend to obtain these decay graphs in the cold winter nights with the HIVE charting function, it will be interesting to see the results.

[GrahamPlatt]

A good metric is to look at the temperature decay over 5 hours, starting when it is roughly 20C indoors and 0C outdoors. (I.e. a cold winter night at bedtime!)

A temperature drop of 3C over 5 hours shows poor insulation

A temperature drop of 1.5C over 5 hours shows good insulation

FD

Thanks funduffer, interesting. I intend to obtain these decay graphs in the cold winter nights with the HIVE charting function, it will be interesting to see the results.

I did these calcs for my place over the first few months of this year. Simply took the outside temp vs room temp as I went to bed and the hearing went off, and then the same when I got up the next morning before the heating had come on. I have an average (over 30 such readings) of °C/hr/deltaT (temp change in the time period cf the (average) o/s vs r/t difference) = 0.0178. Which is “not bad”… I lose 0.178°C of r/t per hour per degree difference between r/t vs o/t. i.e. go to bed at 11pm with r/t 20°C and o/s 0°C, and when I get up at 7am the r/t is still a shade over 17°C. Of course I had no way of accounting for wind (chill factor), which is why it’s a simple “average” of 30 readings on random days throughought Jan - Mar inc.

[GrahamPlatt]

“hearing” = heating. Obvs.

Probably it’s not a linear relationship either. TBH the o/t never fell to 0°C during that period. Coldest was ~5°C.

[scotview]

I did these calcs for my place over the first few months of this year.

Brilliant.

Just a thought, would it not be an idea for .GOV to fund a temperature decay audit on the housing stock (maybe starting with older properties) to see which houses would benefit most from insulation rather than the scatter gun insulation/heat pump/solar grant system which probably favours wealthier property owners. Kind of bang for buck and maximise CO2 reduction, assuming climate change/global warming is a real thing and .GOV truly believe such a thing exists.

[funduffer]

A good metric is to look at the temperature decay over 5 hours, starting when it is roughly 20C indoors and 0C outdoors. (I.e. a cold winter night at bedtime!)

A temperature drop of 3C over 5 hours shows poor insulation

A temperature drop of 1.5C over 5 hours shows good insulation

FD

Thanks funduffer, interesting. I intend to obtain these decay graphs in the cold winter nights with the HIVE charting function, it will be interesting to see the results.

This is the link with the map I was remembering.

https://www.tado.com/gb-en/press/uk-hom ... neighbours

Germany is the best losing just 1C in 5 hours. UK is the worst.

FD

[88V8]

...a temperature decay audit on the housing stock (maybe starting with older properties) to see which houses would benefit most from insulation ..

For sure a wet solid wall leaches away heat faster than a dry wall, and faster still if it's windy. So the best bang-for-buck in terms of internal or external wall insulation would come from insulating whichever wall typically catches the most wind and rain.

Which magazine recently did an insulation feature, the payback time on solid wall insulation for a whole house was comical unless one were Methuselah.

V8

[DrFfybes]

This is the link with the map I was remembering.

https://www.tado.com/gb-en/press/uk-hom ... neighbours

Germany is the best losing just 1C in 5 hours. UK is the worst.

FD

I reckon our bedrooms lose 3C in about an hour at night. Then again the heating is only on for half an hour to take the chill off the air. The fabric of the house remains cold.

However, I think there are factors in this other than insulation.

It doesn't say if the rooms are occupied or not when the heating goes off. Is this air temp, or wall temp? The UK tends to go in for thick carpets a lot more than other European countries, where tiled floors act as a thermal store. Is this living room or bedrooms, open plan, flat or house, upstairs or downstairs?

Add in a curiosity, why is Germany better than Sweden, Holland better than Belgium, and the amount of data available for this (Germany probably has more nights at 0C than Spain or Norway) will varymassively from country to country.

Paul

[Tedx]

I had a friend renovating a listed place near Stirling in that era.
The regs were insanely applied.
Based on the wall material he had chosen they would have passed the insulation "requirements" at the time if they had left the roof off
Don't know if it's any more joined up these days

Funnily enough, Stirling Council paid for my roof, cavity wall and under floor insulation earlier this year.

Completely free to me, not means tested, in my privately owned house.

Scott.

Thanks for the heads up Scott. I've just been on the Home Energy Scotland website and filled in all my details and they're going to come back to me soon.

I'll also have to go and apologise to my SiL as they have just got a grant for solar panels and I told her she was talking ballacks.

[Dicky99]

Which magazine recently did an insulation feature, the payback time on solid wall insulation for a whole house was comical unless one were Methuselah.

V8

In 2017 I was tasked with project managing a small pilot external wall insulation project on 10 semi detached properties. I don't recall exactly but it cost in the order of £25k per semi. The reason it was so expensive was that we determined at the outset that, being a pilot scheme, no corners should be cut. We had observed awful corner cutting on many of the completed schemes we'd visited.
That meant we had to remove everything attached to or abutting the property, so cutting back and adapting walls, fences, gates, demolishing lean-to's. Also trenching around the perimeters in order to extend the EWI half a metre below ground level, thereby necessitating adapting the below ground drainage bends and installing new soil stacks, removing and reinstating gas meters, reinstating disturbed paths and pavings, adding features to keep the Planners happy, the list goes on and on of all the enabling works and associated works that made it possible to properly install the EWI.
Many of the beneficiaries were leaseholders but because of the desire to do this pilot none of them were charged a penny piece. Before I left in 2021 we didn't go as far carrying out a folliw on project and I suspect if we had we would have had an uphill task convincing leaseholders, who would be charged, of the benefit of doing everything technically by the book.
The point for me is that when I see protesters causing mayhem in support of doing more insulation, without delay, I wonder to what extent they have a notion of the hurdles in that.

[DrFfybes]

This heat loss rate info has me looking at temperature loggers.

A simple one I can plug into a PC is ideal, and looking around Elitech and Inkbird seem common and cheap. Has anyone used either, or got any other ideas?

Thanks

Paul

ps Another thought I had about the relative heat drop data from different countries, where do other countries site their radiators? I've really no idea, but I wonder if the Tado data comes from the TRV sensors like the Drayton Wiser system data does, and if they are under a poorly insulated window then will they cool quicker than elsewhere in the room?

[AJC5001]

This heat loss rate info has me looking at temperature loggers.

A simple one I can plug into a PC is ideal, and looking around Elitech and Inkbird seem common and cheap. Has anyone used either, or got any other ideas?

Thanks

Paul

You need to talk to Dicky99 who posted earlier in this thread https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=621434#p621434

Adrian

[scotview]

This heat loss rate info has me looking at temperature loggers.

A simple one I can plug into a PC is ideal, and looking around Elitech and Inkbird seem common and cheap. Has anyone used either, or got any other ideas?

Thanks

Paul

I have an Inkbird temperature/humidity monitor which I use to monitor my hot water tank, using the temperature probe which comes with package. It comes with a phone app which is wireless.

You can set different sampling rates, the shorter frequency the more accurate the trend but obviously you gather more data. The data can be downloaded onto an xls file.

I've now got a good picture of my hot water tank cycling time, about every 5 hours and it takes about 10 to 15 minutes boiler firing to reheat the tank. I've been thinking of using the inkbird to check decay rates in different rooms to compliment my HIVE info.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08 ... UTF8&psc=1

Hope this helps.

[servodude]

This heat loss rate info has me looking at temperature loggers.

A simple one I can plug into a PC is ideal, and looking around Elitech and Inkbird seem common and cheap. Has anyone used either, or got any other ideas?

Thanks

Paul

ps Another thought I had about the relative heat drop data from different countries, where do other countries site their radiators? I've really no idea, but I wonder if the Tado data comes from the TRV sensors like the Drayton Wiser system data does, and if they are under a poorly insulated window then will they cool quicker than elsewhere in the room?

I have a few Inkbirds
IBS-TH3 in a couple of places which are great simple things and crazy cheap for what they do
and an INK-CO2W which I wouldn't bother with again (it has a rechargable battery the charging of which affects the temp measurement - InkBird confirmed this)
- and they do good meat thermometers which is probably not for this thread

[DrFfybes]

Thanks - I knew I'd seen one mentioned, but couldn't find the post.

I've actually ordered an Elitech, as it has USB to PC interface. Although the others seem good, they would also need me to buy a phone to use with it.

Paul

[servodude]

Thanks - I knew I'd seen one mentioned, but couldn't find the post.

I've actually ordered an Elitech, as it has USB to PC interface. Although the others seem good, they would also need me to buy a phone to use with it.

Paul

That does sound like the simplest option

I have an Extech RHT-30 which will be similar and is really useful when you don't have wifi (or when it doesn't penetrate in to the freezer)
- it's quite an age now but usefully it contains the software you need to use it on its own USB partition which seems to work with any PC I've plugged it in to

[Tedx]

I said before that the UK should go all in on offshore wind. Looks like this is a step in the right direction:

Price paid for offshore power to rise by 50%

It goes on to say:


Industry sources have told the BBC that to make up for lost time this year and to hit its 2030 target, the government will need to attract bids for six to eight gigawatts of power every year for the next five years.


....plus all the infrastructure. Jeremy Hunt plans to use the Autumn statement next week to make an announcement on that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67430888

[Itsallaguess]

‎
I've already got a couple of TP-Link Smart plugs, so I know that their kit is good value and work well, so I'm intrigued to learn that they now also offer a Smart Radiator solution that are currently seeing some good Black Friday discounts -

TP-Link Kasa Smart Radiator Thermostat Starter KIT - Hub and one Smart Radiator Valve (£30.95) -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BLZ63QQ9

TP-Link Kasa Smart Radiator Thermostat Add On, Smart Radiator Valve (£26.99) -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BKQWGSMC

As well as being able to be controlled by their normal Kasa App, available on both Apple IOS or Android, they can also be used with Alexa and Google Home, including their normal voice-activation and control processes.

The individual TP-Link valves (KE100) won't work on their own, and do need a single TP-Link Hub (KH100) as a control-point, both of which are contained in the first 'Starter Kit' link shown above, but which can then be expanded by additional valves talking to the same hub.

At those discounted prices, and with TP-Link's good long-term record in this area of home-automation, I think the above might offer a relatively cheap entry-point into Smart radiator control when compared to many of the much more expensive alternatives.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[BullDog]

‎
I've already got a couple of TP-Link Smart plugs, so I know that their kit is good value and work well, so I'm intrigued to learn that they now also offer a Smart Radiator solution that are currently seeing some good Black Friday discounts -

TP-Link Kasa Smart Radiator Thermostat Starter KIT - Hub and one Smart Radiator Valve (£30.95) -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BLZ63QQ9

TP-Link Kasa Smart Radiator Thermostat Add On, Smart Radiator Valve (£26.99) -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BKQWGSMC

As well as being able to be controlled by their normal Kasa App, available on both Apple IOS or Android, they can also be used with Alexa and Google Home, including their normal voice-activation and control processes.

The individual TP-Link valves (KE100) won't work on their own, and do need a single TP-Link Hub (KH100) as a control-point, both of which are contained in the first 'Starter Kit' link shown above, but which can then be expanded by additional valves talking to the same hub.

At those discounted prices, and with TP-Link's good long-term record in this area of home-automation, I think the above might offer a relatively cheap entry-point into Smart radiator control when compared to many of the much more expensive alternatives.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

That's astonishingly good value. A shame it requires a central hub to work but it's very cheap and gets great reviews. The thread is M30x1.5 so best to check it will fit before ordering. Very tempted to buy four or five of them myself to try. Thanks for flagging it up.

[ReformedCharacter]

‎
I've already got a couple of TP-Link Smart plugs, so I know that their kit is good value and work well, so I'm intrigued to learn that they now also offer a Smart Radiator solution that are currently seeing some good Black Friday discounts -

TP-Link Kasa Smart Radiator Thermostat Starter KIT - Hub and one Smart Radiator Valve (£30.95) -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BLZ63QQ9

TP-Link Kasa Smart Radiator Thermostat Add On, Smart Radiator Valve (£26.99) -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BKQWGSMC

As well as being able to be controlled by their normal Kasa App, available on both Apple IOS or Android, they can also be used with Alexa and Google Home, including their normal voice-activation and control processes.

The individual TP-Link valves (KE100) won't work on their own, and do need a single TP-Link Hub (KH100) as a control-point, both of which are contained in the first 'Starter Kit' link shown above, but which can then be expanded by additional valves talking to the same hub.

At those discounted prices, and with TP-Link's good long-term record in this area of home-automation, I think the above might offer a relatively cheap entry-point into Smart radiator control when compared to many of the much more expensive alternatives.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Just to mention...

TP-Link's Kasa plugs (and probably other Kasa products) can be controlled by a BASH script:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/67666137/control-tp-link-kasa-local-switches-with-bash

and Python too:

https://python-kasa.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cli.html

Although I haven't tried the latter. I use an old RPi to control Kasa plugs for various purposes, and have found them extremely reliable.

BTW I read somewhere that the Kasa models are being phased out in favour of Tapo but that may just be rumour.

RC

[servodude]

‎
I've already got a couple of TP-Link Smart plugs, so I know that their kit is good value and work well, so I'm intrigued to learn that they now also offer a Smart Radiator solution that are currently seeing some good Black Friday discounts -

TP-Link Kasa Smart Radiator Thermostat Starter KIT - Hub and one Smart Radiator Valve (£30.95) -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BLZ63QQ9

TP-Link Kasa Smart Radiator Thermostat Add On, Smart Radiator Valve (£26.99) -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BKQWGSMC

As well as being able to be controlled by their normal Kasa App, available on both Apple IOS or Android, they can also be used with Alexa and Google Home, including their normal voice-activation and control processes.

The individual TP-Link valves (KE100) won't work on their own, and do need a single TP-Link Hub (KH100) as a control-point, both of which are contained in the first 'Starter Kit' link shown above, but which can then be expanded by additional valves talking to the same hub.

At those discounted prices, and with TP-Link's good long-term record in this area of home-automation, I think the above might offer a relatively cheap entry-point into Smart radiator control when compared to many of the much more expensive alternatives.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Just to mention...

TP-Link's Kasa plugs (and probably other Kasa products) can be controlled by a BASH script:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/67666137/control-tp-link-kasa-local-switches-with-bash

and Python too:

https://python-kasa.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cli.html

Although I haven't tried the latter. I use an old RPi to control Kasa plugs for various purposes, and have found them extremely reliable.

BTW I read somewhere that the Kasa models are being phased out in favour of Tapo but that may just be rumour.

RC

There's a Tapo pluging for homebridge: https://www.npmjs.com/package/homebridge-tapo
- but I quite like the Tapo app

The plugs themselves I find incredibly good value (especially given the power monitoring of the P110)
- and they're running a global black friday offer(https://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-Tapo-Monitoring-Required-P110/dp/B097YBXHTW)