Backup heating sources.

[scotview]

There has been lot of discussion recently which includes the subject of alternative fuel sources and backup heating systems. I thought I'd raise this thread to discuss this specific and increasingly topical subject.

I've looked at this and my current status is:

1 We already have a few bottles of propane and portable heaters. This should provide some localised heat for a couple of days.
2 Install a home storage battery system which should run the gas central heating boiler/pump for a month. Currently getting quotes.
3 Install log burner. Storage of wood is no problem but the extra work involved would be a chore, considering emergency use only.
4 Install balanced flu, mains gas stove effect fire. Piezo ignition so good for power cut and presumably gas will never be shut down (?)
It's obviously not sensible to do all but just trying to make my mind up what the best solution is, other than the gas bottles we already have.
Say £4K budget.
Thoughts welcome, or maybe I'm overthinking this !

[Itsallaguess]

Thoughts welcome, or maybe I'm overthinking this !

Before you end up at solutionising something like this, would it help to describe the particular scenarios that you're trying to find a solution for?

As an example, and sticking to your heat-source issue, I can imagine a scenario where perhaps either one of my gas supply or my electricity supply might go off for a period of time that might prove to be unwelcome.

That was the scenario that led me to go for an electric shower for our normal use, and have a gas combi-boiler as a back-up to that regular body-wash issue if the electricity were to go off, where we could run shallow baths of boiler-provided hot-water if necessary, so I've got a single-point-of-failure solution to that particular problem.

As well as the showering options, we've also got heating options with a small number of portable oil-filled electric radiators if the gas were to go off to our 'normal use' combi-boiler, and we'd be able to get by using the electric oven and microwave if the gas hob was out of action, so for us it's just making sure there's some level of dual-use gas/electricity options available for most of our daily needs at home.

Are you looking for similar 'single-point-of-failure' solutions for your own situations, or are you going straight to the 'all mains utilities are off' situation, and wanting to find robust solutions to that more Mad Max-like scenario?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

I have not read of what will be the likely scenario if there is a real gas shortage. Will the priority be to deliver electricity or gas, because of course about 50% of our electricity depends on gas for generation? I do not think it is going to be 'if' there is a gas shortage; it looks fairly certain .

Personally I am not on the gas grid so my concern is electricity, without which I have no lighting or cooking facilities. Somewhere I have a propane stove which I must find. I have a woodburner so will have heat whatever. I think the most likely scene will be cutting off electricity and probably gas for a period each day, especially if we have a really cold January with light winds, such as last winter, so that all these beautiful windmills do not produce much just when they are needed most.

Unlike the OP, I have always liked the woodburner as it produces real heat. Its biggest drawback to me is that it tends to be dusty but in January without anything else that will be of no concern.

BTW, IAAG is using a new word to me, 'solutionising'. Wonderful.

Dod

[scotview]

That was the scenario that led me to go for an electric shower for our normal use, and have a gas combi-boiler as a back-up to that regular body-wash issue if the electricity were to go off

Itsallaguess

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I think if the electric is off your combi will be off, You wont have an electricity supply for the boiler electronics and pump.

My scenario:
November through March, electrical power lost, so gas central heating goes off (no electronics or pump). Heating is by far and maybe our only priority. Fridge freezer in cold garage, Washing machine/drier not essential. Gas hob available for cooking/hot drinking water.
The probability that gas will go off is virtually nil.

[Itsallaguess]

That was the scenario that led me to go for an electric shower for our normal use, and have a gas combi-boiler as a back-up to that regular body-wash issue if the electricity were to go off

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I think if the electric is off your combi will be off, You wont have an electricity supply for the boiler electronics and pump.

My scenario:

November through March, electrical power lost, so gas central heating goes off (no electronics or pump). Heating is by far and maybe our only priority. Fridge freezer in cold garage, Washing machine/drier not essential. Gas hob available for cooking/hot drinking water.

The probability that gas will go off is virtually nil.

Yes, sorry - the redundancy for body-washing is only if the gas goes off or the boiler is broken - so I've then got an electrically-supplied solution still, but not the other way as well.

As it happens that's actually the only scenario that's ever been needed, and it's happened twice since the 90's when we moved in, both boiler-related for short periods, so the diversification has been used a couple of times already, but just not because of gas-supply issues.

It sounds like you're scenario-planing for a much more severe situation than I'd ever wish to have to consider, so I can now see where you're having to go with your own solutions - thanks for the additional details.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Itsallaguess]

My scenario:

November through March, electrical power lost, so gas central heating goes off (no electronics or pump).

Heating is by far and maybe our only priority.

Fridge freezer in cold garage, Washing machine/drier not essential. Gas hob available for cooking/hot drinking water.

The probability that gas will go off is virtually nil.

I know you've previously mentioned getting quotes for a home-storage battery system to potentially supply the boiler electrics in that scenario, but is there a reason you've gone in that direction and not just plumped for a suitably-sized portable generator?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

That was the scenario that led me to go for an electric shower for our normal use, and have a gas combi-boiler as a back-up to that regular body-wash issue if the electricity were to go off

Itsallaguess

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I think if the electric is off your combi will be off, You wont have an electricity supply for the boiler electronics and pump.

My scenario:
November through March, electrical power lost, so gas central heating goes off (no electronics or pump). Heating is by far and maybe our only priority. Fridge freezer in cold garage, Washing machine/drier not essential. Gas hob available for cooking/hot drinking water.
The probability that gas will go off is virtually nil.

Why are you so confident that gas will continue to be supplied whatever? Not sure that even in your position heating would be my over riding priority. If so then it is easily solved with a wood burner. My priority is some way of cooking or heating food, much more important than heating. I can for instance go out for a walk. In most conditions that will heat me.

Dod

[scotview]

I know you've previously mentioned getting quotes for a home-storage battery system to potentially supply the boiler electrics in that scenario, but is there a reason you've gone in that direction and not just plumped for a suitably-sized portable generator?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Well, on loss of mains power the battery supply will kick in to feed the 60 watt boiler electronics/pump supply. It will auto cut off the mains incomer. And I think I have finally got a solution and a competent installer to install a separate earth rod, which is essential.
I also think I can trickle feed from our BEV to keep the battery topped up when it goes flat, after 3 weeks to a month, worst case.
The battery will also recharge on night time tarriffs, when I eventually get a smart meter.

I dont wish my wife to be lumbered with connecting up a gene, topping it up from a can, clamping earths on and disconnecting the mains incomer. The thought of topping up a gene outside in a blizard, in the dark doesnt appeal to this soft scotsman..

[Itsallaguess]

I know you've previously mentioned getting quotes for a home-storage battery system to potentially supply the boiler electrics in that scenario, but is there a reason you've gone in that direction and not just plumped for a suitably-sized portable generator?

Well, on loss of mains power the battery supply will kick in to feed the 60 watt boiler electronics/pump supply. It will auto cut off the mains incomer. And I think I have finally got a solution and a competent installer to install a separate earth rod, which is essential.

I also think I can trickle feed from our BEV to keep the battery topped up when it goes flat, after 3 weeks to a month, worst case.

The battery will also recharge on night time tarriffs, when I eventually get a smart meter.

I don't wish my wife to be lumbered with connecting up a gene, topping it up from a can, clamping earths on and disconnecting the mains incomer. The thought of topping up a gene outside in a blizard, in the dark doesn't appeal to this soft scotsman..

Which all makes complete sense - thanks for the details.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[scotview]

Why are you so confident that gas will continue to be supplied whatever? Not sure that even in your position heating would be my over riding priority. If so then it is easily solved with a wood burner. My priority is some way of cooking or heating food, much more important than heating. I can for instance go out for a walk. In most conditions that will heat me.

Dod

I am certainly not ruling out a wood burner. I would probably get one with a top hot plate for cooking. That's exactly why I'm picking you guys brains to get my best solution. Our chum has a wood burner, my wife loves it and it makes our Hogmanay complete.

The wood burner would solve both electricity and gas outages (thanks for that epiphany), it would be a cosmetic feature and could heat a gravity radiator and cylinder coil with a bit of extra piping and a back boiler but thats getting complicated now and bawbees.

The other good thing about the wood burner is that it would provide heat to migrate up to the loft space to stop pipes and tanks from freezing.

Thanks Dod.

[Dod101]

Why are you so confident that gas will continue to be supplied whatever? Not sure that even in your position heating would be my over riding priority. If so then it is easily solved with a wood burner. My priority is some way of cooking or heating food, much more important than heating. I can for instance go out for a walk. In most conditions that will heat me.

Dod

I am certainly not ruling out a wood burner. I would probably get one with a top hot plate for cooking. That's exactly why I'm picking you guys brains to get my best solution. Our chum has a wood burner, my wife loves it and it makes our Hogmanay complete.

The wood burner would solve both electricity and gas outages (thanks for that epiphany), it would be a cosmetic feature and could heat a gravity radiator and cylinder coil with a bit of extra piping and a back boiler but thats getting complicated now and bawbees.

The other good thing about the wood burner is that it would provide heat to migrate up to the loft space to stop pipes and tanks from freezing.

Thanks Dod.

I think all of that makes complete sense. My woodburner which I inherited when I bought this house, is entirely standalone which strikes me as being stupid so I admire your ideas. I think a backboiler would be best installed at a very early stage in the house build. I have looked at it but it would be difficult and probably expensive to retro fit. My woodburner heats most of my house in fact, once it is going well. It has a radiation effect as well as the direct heat. They are popular for good reason. A bit of a hassle feeding it with logs but well worth it.

Dod

[MDW1954]

I think all of that makes complete sense. My woodburner which I inherited when I bought this house, is entirely standalone which strikes me as being stupid so I admire your ideas. I think a backboiler would be best installed at a very early stage in the house build. I have looked at it but it would be difficult and probably expensive to retro fit. My woodburner heats most of my house in fact, once it is going well. It has a radiation effect as well as the direct heat. They are popular for good reason. A bit of a hassle feeding it with logs but well worth it.

Dod

It's worth looking at the back of the woodburner to see if you can see four small lugs of about one inch diameter into which the backboiler would be plumbed, if it is/ was a selectable option. The expensive bit would be running copper pipework to the hot water tank (at least in our Devon farmhouse).

MDW1954

[88V8]

Well here's one of our two woodburners complete with draught-shedder and thermometer, woodburners which insurers just love in thatched houses like ours.... on which one can cook and heat water if one is not in a hurry.

Clearview 500, second-hand on eBay.



and as we all like to see them lit, here's the other one. No draught-shedder as the chimney has less pull.



That's a Newey & Bloomer gas kettle on it, which is pretty hopeless on a flat stove, we do have better ones nowadays, like this sitting on its trivet



V8

[scotview]

Well here's one of our two woodburners complete with draught-shedder and thermometer, woodburners which insurers just love in thatched houses like ours.... on which one can cook and heat water if one is not in a hurry.

V8

Nice !! Thanks for posting. You wouldn't want winter to end with those !!

Not too many cook wood burners. Came across this one, nice big flat top. Are they really practical ?

This one also has runners for a grill plate. I think a substantial hearth might also be necessary for safety sake.

https://www.topstak.co.uk/stoves/stoves ... oup%20%231

[Dod101]

I have a Clearview 650 which has a domed top making it impossible to heat anything on it. To answer MDW, I cannot find any lugs on the back of it but in any case it is a long way from my hot water tank which is a Megaflo so I doubt that it could be integrated.

Nice photos of stoves in action though.

Dod

[stevensfo]

Well here's one of our two woodburners complete with draught-shedder and thermometer, woodburners which insurers just love in thatched houses like ours.... on which one can cook and heat water if one is not in a hurry.

Clearview 500, second-hand on eBay.

We have a woodburner very similar to those, but it uses an electric fan to suck in air through a lower vent, and blow it through the hollow spaces between the iron walls and out of a vent at the top - just above the door. In fact my only experience with these things has been in France and Italy where they're very common.

I regret very much not having a much bigger one installed and looking into blowing the hot air upstairs as well. But we were in a hurry, new job, two small kids etc.

Since power cuts are most annoying in the winter and our woodburner needs electricity to work really well (With the fan, the downstairs and landing is warmed up very fast) I'm thinking of getting an electrician to install a socket/plug next to the on/off switch that would allow us to use external batteries in an emergency. I assume that the fan is unlikely to be much above 200W. I'm inclined to have a go myself, but my plumbing and electrical DIY skills are currently sanctioned by the powers that be (my wife). I mean, isn't it normal to flood the kitchen and fuse all the lights once a month?


Steve

[servodude]

Well here's one of our two woodburners complete with draught-shedder and thermometer, woodburners which insurers just love in thatched houses like ours.... on which one can cook and heat water if one is not in a hurry.

Clearview 500, second-hand on eBay.

We have a woodburner very similar to those, but it uses an electric fan to suck in air through a lower vent, and blow it through the hollow spaces between the iron walls and out of a vent at the top - just above the door. In fact my only experience with these things has been in France and Italy where they're very common.

I regret very much not having a much bigger one installed and looking into blowing the hot air upstairs as well. But we were in a hurry, new job, two small kids etc.

Since power cuts are most annoying in the winter and our woodburner needs electricity to work really well (With the fan, the downstairs and landing is warmed up very fast) I'm thinking of getting an electrician to install a socket/plug next to the on/off switch that would allow us to use external batteries in an emergency. I assume that the fan is unlikely to be much above 200W. I'm inclined to have a go myself, but my plumbing and electrical DIY skills are currently sanctioned by the powers that be (my wife). I mean, isn't it normal to flood the kitchen and fuse all the lights once a month?


Steve

My mum's got one similar.
Doesn't get fired up very often given it's in the dining room.
It's mostly used at Xmas mainly in order facilitate headaches at dinner because she's forgot about the mulled wine sitting (evaporating) in a pot on top of it

[Mike4]

There has been lot of discussion recently which includes the subject of alternative fuel sources and backup heating systems. I thought I'd raise this thread to discuss this specific and increasingly topical subject.

I've looked at this and my current status is:

1 We already have a few bottles of propane and portable heaters. This should provide some localised heat for a couple of days.
2 Install a home storage battery system which should run the gas central heating boiler/pump for a month. Currently getting quotes.
3 Install log burner. Storage of wood is no problem but the extra work involved would be a chore, considering emergency use only.
4 Install balanced flu, mains gas stove effect fire. Piezo ignition so good for power cut and presumably gas will never be shut down (?)
It's obviously not sensible to do all but just trying to make my mind up what the best solution is, other than the gas bottles we already have.
Say £4K budget.
Thoughts welcome, or maybe I'm overthinking this !

1. Be careful of the portable heaters as they don't have a flue. This is significant because all the products of combustion slosh about in the room with YOU instead of being ducted to outside. The problems with this are twofold. As no flue gas is going up the flue, no fresh air (with new oxygen) is being drawn into the room. Eventually too little oxygen causes the fire to produce carbon monoxide, the one that kills people. The firs is designed to self-extinguish before this point is reached but are you ok with hoping it works? Secondly, 50% approx of the products of combustion are water vapour. Great if you love condensation and a damp environment. Less so if you don't.

4. These things absolutely gobble the gas. Fine if the point of this is redundancy but not so fine if the price of gas bothers you. Also, the balanced flue versions generally have a fan nowadays so you'll need the leccy ON for it to work.

[xeny]

I have not read of what will be the likely scenario if there is a real gas shortage. Will the priority be to deliver electricity or gas, because of course about 50% of our electricity depends on gas for generation? I do not think it is going to be 'if' there is a gas shortage; it looks fairly certain .

The current plan should a shortage eventuate is to cut supplies to gas fired power stations and maintain gas supplies for domestic use, as losing pressure in houses is perceived to have a high risk of air entering pipework and consequent issues.

Loss of gas fired electrical generation is likely to result in very rapid load shedding, which should be done by shutting off industrial customers.

I can see a certain amount of scope for things to go wrong.

We have a lot of LNG terminal capacity, so maybe loss of gas supply isn't as likely as it possibly seems.

I get the impression that most of NW Europe is relying on electricity interconnects if generating capacity gets tight. If it gets tight for them all at the same time, comedy will doubtless ensue.

[Dod101]

I have not read of what will be the likely scenario if there is a real gas shortage. Will the priority be to deliver electricity or gas, because of course about 50% of our electricity depends on gas for generation? I do not think it is going to be 'if' there is a gas shortage; it looks fairly certain .

The current plan should a shortage eventuate is to cut supplies to gas fired power stations and maintain gas supplies for domestic use, as losing pressure in houses is perceived to have a high risk of air entering pipework and consequent issues.

Loss of gas fired electrical generation is likely to result in very rapid load shedding, which should be done by shutting off industrial customers.

I can see a certain amount of scope for things to go wrong.

We have a lot of LNG terminal capacity, so maybe loss of gas supply isn't as likely as it possibly seems.

I get the impression that most of NW Europe is relying on electricity interconnects if generating capacity gets tight. If it gets tight for them all at the same time, comedy will doubtless ensue.

Your comment re gas makes sense but I had not seen that, thanks.

Dod