Staying warm this winter

[Mike4]

We only get through about 3 tons a year...

Interested that you buy wood by the tonne. All the suppliers I can find sell it by the cubic metre and are dead coy about the weight. Probably because since the law came in requiring a max water content of 20%, it is all a lot lighter than it ever used to be.

Sorry, lapsus lingus. I meant three metres... which comes in ton bags... But it's still plenty of work, if one regards it as work.

Ah excellent. So you're actually burning three 'builder's bags' of the stuff per winter. That's much more encouraging as three tonnes is 12 bags of wood by my estimation and I was really worrying about how much wood I was gonna be going through!

Also, I reckon a builder's bag is a cubic yard not a cubic metre. About 30% less volume IIRC! Not that I've ever actually measured one to check.

Also, solid fuel burns much hotter. Or at least, it can. We have thermometers on our stoves so I can keep an eye on the temp, but even so... and with thatch you don't want too much heat in the chimney, at least I don't, not even with an insulated liner.

With an insulated liner the flue gas itself (and the liner) will run LOADS hotter than if left uninsulated. I'd have preferred to have mine uninsulated but my installer was having none of it citing professional indemnity insurance reasons. So I caved as it otherwise meant he was gonna walk off the job!

The truth is, I like burning wood.The rustic thing.

I think I probably will too... but coal feels pretty rustic too and burns so much longer.

Wood under a tarp, that's the arrangement we inherited from the PO... especially over earth, it will sweat and become soggy and recalcitrant. Buying seasoned wood and keeping it that way is like buying fine wine and storing it in the boiler room.... even an open-front lean-to would be better.

I have the open lean-to arrangement. "Better" you say, but what would be "best"? Keep it fully indoors in a heated room I imagine. My supplier keeps theirs in a heated barn, presumably to get it down to the 20% moisture as legally required now to sell it. Will it absorb moisture and creep up above this if stored outside? Does anyone care?

[Dod101]

....might just turn out cheaper than dried logs if loads of wood burners are installed.

I think that once people who never ran a fire before have a year of lugging logs and ashing out and chimney sweeping, for many the novelty will wear off.

We only get through about 3 tons a year, we buy it locally, a mix of 10" and 15" lengths for efficient use of the stacking area, some lumpy pieces have to be selectively chopped to thin them down, then stacked in the purpose-built woodstore I made where it's dry but well ventilated, then lugged up a long flight of steps and stacked in the fireplace, then the stove itself needs keeping an eye on every 20-30 minutes to make sure it doesn't burn too hot or cold, the fire has to be ashed out and made up every morning... kindling that I chop/glean myself but which otherwise has to be bought, newspaper when many people don't even have a proper newspaper... and then there's finding a reliable supplier of truly seasoned wood which took us three false starts.
Then there's the ashes, one can only grow so many onions....
And that 3 tons just does two woodburners which are only lit in the evening, and sometimes we run out and I have to order more and it's a tossup whether one can even get more by January when it's apparent it's going to run out.

Yes, the novelty will wear off.

V8

If you need to have a woodburner upstairs I agree that that would be a hassle. I am surprised though that you 'ash out' every day. The instructions which came with my woodburner specifically says to leave at least a couple of inches of ash in the grate at all times. This helps protect the grate itself and lets the wood burn more evenly. It actually says that I can leave the ash there until it is literally spilling out. Mine is no bother except that it does cause dust.

Dod

[Dod101]

I have the open lean-to arrangement. "Better" you say, but what would be "best"? Keep it fully indoors in a heated room I imagine. My supplier keeps theirs in a heated barn, presumably to get it down to the 20% moisture as legally required now to sell it. Will it absorb moisture and creep up above this if stored outside? Does anyone care?

Once the moisture content is down to 20% it is best kept under cover and the classic log store is a covered structure but open in front so that air can get at it. Mine is full at the moment and I have almost the same again in my garage. Once at 20% it does not need any form of heat until it goes into the woodburner A heated barn might get it down to 20% eventually but usually the wood is kiln dried these days. A permanently heated barn sounds an expensive way to bring down the moisture content and is unnecessary to maintain it at that level.

Your open lean to arrangement sounds fine.

Dod

[ReformedCharacter]

This is where solid fuel wins hands down. 10% of the volume of wood for the same amount of energy, and 10% of the ash.

Interested that you buy wood by the tonne. All the suppliers I can find sell it by the cubic metre and are dead coy about the weight. Probably because since the law came in requiring a max water content of 20%, it is all a lot lighter than it ever used to be.

Do you happen to know the approx weight of a cubic metre of cut logs, 20% moisture content? I estimated 250kg for my calcs. Thanks if you do!

I tried solid fuel a few years ago and hated it. Much more ash than wood and no good for the garden, I think it's partly made of cement.
I wrote some notes a few years ago, which I have just checked and your estimate of 250kg looks about right, maybe a little low.

RC

[ReformedCharacter]

I bought 1m³ of seasoned hardwood which is under a tarp by the back door.

Unfortunately that's a really bad way to store wood. You'll get condensation on the underside of the tarp, probably rainwater under the tarp too. I've tried various ways with a pile and a tarp, they all resulted in damp and even mouldy logs.

RC

[Mike4]

I bought 1m³ of seasoned hardwood which is under a tarp by the back door.

Unfortunately that's a really bad way to store wood. You'll get condensation on the underside of the tarp, probably rainwater under the tarp too. I've tried various ways with a pile and a tarp, they all resulted in damp and even mouldy logs.

RC

I'd guess this happens due to moisture in the ground evaporating and the vapour remaining trapped under the tarpaulin, then condensing when the temperature falls at night.

So given recent weather conditions I doubt there is much water in the ground at the surface, so little harm in the tarp. Until the drought breaks!

[ReformedCharacter]

Ah excellent. So you're actually burning three 'builder's bags' of the stuff per winter. That's much more encouraging as three tonnes is 12 bags of wood by my estimation and I was really worrying about how much wood I was gonna be going through!

Also, I reckon a builder's bag is a cubic yard not a cubic metre. About 30% less volume IIRC! Not that I've ever actually measured one to check.

This ‘tonne bag’ of mixed traditional logs (20% moisture content) only weighs about 200kg. Traditional Logs are sold by volume, so it’s virtually impossible for you to compare logs with any other form of energy…AND you pay for water! A ‘builder’s bag’ of logs looks like a lot of energy but it’s all smoke and mirrors. The logs only weigh about 200kg.

https://www.woodfuel.coop/wood-fuel-guides/guide-to-traditional-logs/

Will it absorb moisture and creep up above this if stored outside? Does anyone care?

Yes, it will absorb moisture from the air, I do care but there's only so much you can do within reason

RC

[richlist]

I store my logs in a purpose built log store, I don't buy I cut my own and store as logs for about 3 years before burning. I operate a two stage cut, first I cut them into 3 foot lengths and store them under cover. At the end of the season i cut some of them into logs and replenish the log store. It's worked for me for a few years. I don't find it a chore, quite enjoy the exercise.

[Mike4]

Ah excellent. So you're actually burning three 'builder's bags' of the stuff per winter. That's much more encouraging as three tonnes is 12 bags of wood by my estimation and I was really worrying about how much wood I was gonna be going through!

Also, I reckon a builder's bag is a cubic yard not a cubic metre. About 30% less volume IIRC! Not that I've ever actually measured one to check.

This ‘tonne bag’ of mixed traditional logs (20% moisture content) only weighs about 200kg. Traditional Logs are sold by volume, so it’s virtually impossible for you to compare logs with any other form of energy…AND you pay for water! A ‘builder’s bag’ of logs looks like a lot of energy but it’s all smoke and mirrors. The logs only weigh about 200kg.

https://www.woodfuel.coop/wood-fuel-guides/guide-to-traditional-logs/

Will it absorb moisture and creep up above this if stored outside? Does anyone care?

Yes, it will absorb moisture from the air, I do care but there's only so much you can do within reason

RC

Excellent link, thanks!!

[Dod101]

Ah excellent. So you're actually burning three 'builder's bags' of the stuff per winter. That's much more encouraging as three tonnes is 12 bags of wood by my estimation and I was really worrying about how much wood I was gonna be going through!

Also, I reckon a builder's bag is a cubic yard not a cubic metre. About 30% less volume IIRC! Not that I've ever actually measured one to check.

This ‘tonne bag’ of mixed traditional logs (20% moisture content) only weighs about 200kg. Traditional Logs are sold by volume, so it’s virtually impossible for you to compare logs with any other form of energy…AND you pay for water! A ‘builder’s bag’ of logs looks like a lot of energy but it’s all smoke and mirrors. The logs only weigh about 200kg.

https://www.woodfuel.coop/wood-fuel-guides/guide-to-traditional-logs/

Will it absorb moisture and creep up above this if stored outside? Does anyone care?

Yes, it will absorb moisture from the air, I do care but there's only so much you can do within reason

RC

I do not think that logs absorb moisture from the air. They are not like a sponge and hardwoods anyway have very dense fibres which will not allow water to penetrate. They can occasionally get wet from rain in my log store but dry out again very quickly. The wet remains on the surface of the log and is not absorbed into the wood itself.

Dod

[Itsallaguess]

So what are Fool's plans for the coming winter?

This will be my third winter of working from home, and it was clear to me back in 2020 that if I wanted to keep my comfort levels up and my energy costs down whilst working from home during the colder winter months, then I had to come up with some much more 'localised' heating solutions for my working office, rather than looking to rely on my wider home central-heating being used to heat a house that generally only had one room occupied for most working days.

I know there are radiator-controls available that would help to achieve that using my existing central-heating, but I don't want to move to a complete SMART TRV situation at this time, and the additional expense of doing so was another aspect that meant I preferred to seek out an alternative 'single room heating solution' that helped to avoid having to go down that particular path...

Early in the first winter of 2020, I bought a small 1500W oil-filled radiator for around £40, which came with three useful levels of heat-output, where switched elements of 600W or 900W could be used individually, or they could both be used at the same time to provide the whole 1500W output rating -

https://www.diy.com/departments/electric-1500w-off-white-oil-filled-radiator/1394605_BQ.prd

Having that small radiator next to my PC workstation in a medium-sized and well-insulated back room has got me through the last two winters without any issues whatsoever, and all the time with it only being set to it's lowest 600W output rating, which when controlled with it's integrated thermostat set on a fairly low setting as well, means the 600W element isn't even activated much at all through most working days, and it's been a great primary solution for me in terms of achieving comfortable, localised heat in my working office.

I'm a big fan of oil-filled radiators for this type of application, because they provide a level of comfort very similar to normal radiators, without the 'open electrical element' aspect of things like fan-driven electric space-heaters etc., which I've never really found to be as comfortable to live with when considering the type of delivered heat and any associated fan-noise etc...

This year, and with one eye on reducing electricity consumption as low as possible whilst maintaining as high a level of comfort as I can, I've invested in a £25 Beurer Heat Pad, which has a lower 100W heat output, but which can be used in much more localised positions to help maintain a warm and comfortable working position -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beurer-Relaxation-Temperature-Breathable-Machine-Washable/dp/B07ZC3VK4W

I'm usually happy working with a fleece throw over my legs during the really cold weeks, and I think this type of Heat Pad will suit that, with it being able to be used to generate heat either directly under my feet or sat on my legs whilst working.

I also like the idea of this more portable heating solution, as I think it'll come in useful for situations outside of normal working hours, during a winter where we'll be looking to cut down on wider heating costs where we can. My wife has one of these heat pads at the bottom of the bed when she sometimes has cold feet during the colder months, and it's been great for her and solves the problem very locally and unobtrusively, without the need for large electric-blanket solutions -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beurer-Comfort-Heating-Fleece-Finish/dp/B00AAW1VKQ

One final suggestion that I'd give though, for those coldest of winter periods - don't ever be too proud to put a woollen hat on. It's really surprising just how much warmer your whole body will feel indoors by just popping a warm hat on for a short period. I've not had to resort to using one too many times over the last couple of fairly mild UK winters, but on the short periods where I felt the need, the benefit was almost instantaneous...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[ReformedCharacter]

I do not think that logs absorb moisture from the air. They are not like a sponge and hardwoods anyway have very dense fibres which will not allow water to penetrate. They can occasionally get wet from rain in my log store but dry out again very quickly. The wet remains on the surface of the log and is not absorbed into the wood itself.

Dod

I have to disagree there Dod. I wish it wasn't so, but air can both dry and moisten logs. It's quite noticeable to me that logs stored in the Spring when dry and at a time of low humidity pick up moisture from more humid winter air. But you are right in that logs once seasoned and dry, do dry out quite quickly when they have been rained on, if exposed to air flow. You will quickly find how much moisture logs will absorb from the air if you try and store some of your kiln dried logs outside under a sheet of plastic or a tarpaulin. They do act like a sponge but of course hard woods take longer to both dry and absorb moisture.

RC

[Itsallaguess]

Yeah, my mum and myself are big fans of these localised heated pads etc.

For watching telly and sitting at my desk upstairs, I wouldn't be without my Aldi electric foot warmer. So much so I've had a spare brand new one in the upstairs cupboard for years - held in reserve just in case the one I have expires.

Thanks Snorvey - I've got my eye on the Beurer version, which doesn't seem overly expensive from Amazon, and which comes with a machine-washable fleecy lining -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WQXGXFP

Depending on how my heat-pad experiments go, I think that's likely to be a good alternative or addition, depending on how cold this winter is.

Sod's law means it's going to be a Doozy of a cold one, of course...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

I do not think that logs absorb moisture from the air. They are not like a sponge and hardwoods anyway have very dense fibres which will not allow water to penetrate. They can occasionally get wet from rain in my log store but dry out again very quickly. The wet remains on the surface of the log and is not absorbed into the wood itself.

Dod

I have to disagree there Dod. I wish it wasn't so, but air can both dry and moisten logs. It's quite noticeable to me that logs stored in the Spring when dry and at a time of low humidity pick up moisture from more humid winter air. But you are right in that logs once seasoned and dry, do dry out quite quickly when they have been rained on, if exposed to air flow. You will quickly find how much moisture logs will absorb from the air if you try and store some of your kiln dried logs outside under a sheet of plastic or a tarpaulin. They do act like a sponge but of course hard woods take longer to both dry and absorb moisture.

RC

You may well be right. I have a big log store about 2 feet deep, The back and sides are slatted to allow air flow and the roof is corrugated iron or similar so the logs get no direct rain but plenty air circulating around them. I regard that as important. In the winter I wheelbarrow them round to my garage and use them pretty much right away. They might have a night or two in my garage which in winter is cold but dry.

Dod

[kempiejon]

I bought 1m³ of seasoned hardwood which is under a tarp by the back door.

Unfortunately that's a really bad way to store wood. You'll get condensation on the underside of the tarp, probably rainwater under the tarp too. I've tried various ways with a pile and a tarp, they all resulted in damp and even mouldy logs.

RC

Thanks, I had been told about needing to keep good airflow so was I was intending to make a wood store, roof and 3 sides idea. The wood came packed and on pallet like a bit like this and I draped the tarp over the top to keep the rain off. It's on hard standing just now.

[88V8]

The wood came packed and on pallet a bit like this ... and I draped the tarp over the top to keep the rain off.

Good grief. If M&S sold logs.....

V8

[scotview]

The wood came packed and on pallet a bit like this ... and I draped the tarp over the top to keep the rain off.

Good grief. If M&S sold logs.....

V8

Agreed, this cant be 7p/kWh surely!!

Packaging, Manhours, Transport, somethings not right here.

And one of those in a winter power cut would last, 4 days to heat one room tops.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

Many years ago I used to go sea fishing off the shores of the East coast of Yorkshire. Winter was a better time. It was cold. I recall on one occasion the sea was icing over in areas where static pools had been separated from the main waters.

We wore thermals to keep us warm.

Plenty of thin layers are better than thick layers.

I'm no expert on staying warm but would suggest that clothing that fishermen use when fishing off the shore in winter is a good place to start looking.

Some suggestions

Mens Thermal Underwear

Thermals

Hot water bottles and thick duvets when you're sat still will also help. Add these to thermal clothing and you should find it very warm.

AiY(D)

[pje16]

Agreed re thermals
get over the fact that sound like they're for old folk
I tried them for the first time last year, they do keep you toasty warm.

[kempiejon]

Thanks Snorvey - I've got my eye on the Beurer version, which doesn't seem overly expensive from Amazon, and which comes with a machine-washable fleecy lining -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WQXGXFP

Depending on how my heat-pad experiments go, I think that's likely to be a good alternative or addition, depending on how cold this winter is.

Sod's law means it's going to be a Doozy of a cold one, of course...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Looks like today the Bauer is best value for a year, https://uk.camelcamelcamel.com/product/B07WQXGXFP I can't see them dropping in price as winter looms in. My elderly relative has just bought an Aldi heated blanket.