Energy Saving

[UncleEbenezer]

why cant (say) energy security also be independent?

What would that mean? Something like Texas, perhaps?

[Hallucigenia]

Offshore floating wind,

Saying all that, 25GW of mixed floating and fixed is a decent start.....

Although Shell have quietly pulled the plug on their big floating array off Brittany as it got too complicated and too expensive, despite the current chaos in the French leccy market. Ironically part of the problem is that they were planning to put 6MW turbines on floats, but their supplier has stopped making them as they've moved on to bigger ones for fixed offshore deployment.

https://energynews.pro/en/wind-energy-a ... belle-ile/

[Nimrod103]

If the UK had deployed heat pumps at the same rate as some other European countries, our dependence on gas would be significantly lower this year, analysis suggests.

An assessment from the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit (ECIU) found that if the UK had already installed the same amount of heat pumps per 100,000 people as Estonia has, domestic gas use would be 34% less than in 2021.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ysis-finds

Insulation rates have plummeted since 2012 as successive Conservative governments failed to get large-scale programs up and running -- even though energy efficiency is often described as the low-hanging fruit to lower bills. The total cost of wasted energy for households and government will be almost £13 billion ($15 billion) between October 2022 and October 2024, according to the Local Government Association.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mand-by-13

Both articles might be behind a paywall, but the above is basically the gist of it.

Pretty poor show really. But, with my optimistic hat on, there's a huge opportunity for improvement.

While insulation is an all round good, I thought the issues with the Govt schemes 10+ years ago were the number of cowboys attracted by the grants, so that many installations were substandard, and poor value for money. Also most of the easy installations will have been done. In my case, my loft is well insulated, but cavity wall insulation in my house would be difficult becasue of access, and there are many people who think it is not such a good idea due to damp penetration.

My own cynical view of insulation is that it has frequently led to many people living their lives at higher ambient temperatures, while keeping their heating on more than half the year. This year I intend to reach Christmas at least without having the CH on at all.

The main problem in the UK must be all the old solid wall terraces and semis, which are so difficult to insulate, but there is not the money to knock them down and start again.

What is the current view on the efficiency, efficacy and quietness of heat pumps?

[DrFfybes]

While insulation is an all round good, I thought the issues with the Govt schemes 10+ years ago were the number of cowboys attracted by the grants, so that many installations were substandard, and poor value for money. Also most of the easy installations will have been done. In my case, my loft is well insulated, but cavity wall insulation in my house would be difficult becasue of access, and there are many people who think it is not such a good idea due to damp penetration.

You mean like one of today's headlines...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-63401321

The main problem in the UK must be all the old solid wall terraces and semis, which are so difficult to insulate, but there is not the money to knock them down and start again.

What is the current view on the efficiency, efficacy and quietness of heat pumps?

The problem is UK houes were not designed with insulation in mind until relatively late, only in the 1970s was insulation/ventilation considered important in Council housing in Manchester. Retrofitting is extremely difficult and expensive - we worked out to properly insulate our house (solid floors on tiles on earth, solid walls and thin cavity with debris in the bottom, no damp course, low ceilings and eaves dropping into bedrroms so only 100mm between ceiling and roof tiles, etc) would cost about the same as knocking it down and starting again. We've just had a quite to replace the windows and patio doors - it is a long thin house with windows down each long edge, approx £25k.

The heat demand is huge - the eat pump chap said we don't have enough wall space for the rads required to heat the place with a heat pump. Long term demolishing it is probably the solution

[NotSure]

Offshore floating wind,

Saying all that, 25GW of mixed floating and fixed is a decent start.....

Although Shell have quietly pulled the plug on their big floating array off Brittany as it got too complicated and too expensive, despite the current chaos in the French leccy market. Ironically part of the problem is that they were planning to put 6MW turbines on floats, but their supplier has stopped making them as they've moved on to bigger ones for fixed offshore deployment.

https://energynews.pro/en/wind-energy-a ... belle-ile/

I am not directly employed in the wind generation business, but work closely with those that are.

There is not yet a commercially viable floating solution to the best of my knowledge. Many are working on it, but it's not there yet. No turbine OEMs make a floating specific turbine. All the work is currently being carried out by people trying to design an affordable platform for standard offshore turbines.

[DrFfybes]

There is not yet a commercially viable floating solution to the best of my knowledge. Many are working on it, but it's not there yet. No turbine OEMs make a floating specific turbine. All the work is currently being carried out by people trying to design an affordable platform for standard offshore turbines.

Surely they'd just blow away?

[Alaric]

I think it just gets shown as a payment credited on your bill
My October bill did anyway, (i.e. my normal payment plus £66)

Mine showed up as a credit on my bank account, a few days after a monthly payment went through.

That's with SSE/OVO.

[pje16]

Strange how they do it differently then

[BullDog]

According to Bloomberg, the UK issued its first 'Energy Warning' of the winter yesterday as wind power dropped to less than 4GW and demand rose as temperatures dropped.

Apparently, it was tight-ish, but 'not super tight' according to the Grid bod.

Wind power, according to the iamkate website has been running at 10-15GW pretty constantly in recent times.Today it was running at around 19GW earlier and at about 17GW.now and we're exporting 4-5GW of that to Europe.

It's the governments plan to increase offshore wind from about 12GW at the moment to 50GW.

Can't happen quickly enough. But true grid scale energy storage is still a vital piece of the jigsaw pretty much absent at the moment.

[BullDog]

Oooh 20+ GW

Never seen that before

Presently nearly 3GW being exported on French interconnector. Makes perfect sense for the UK to go flat out on domestic renewable energy generation and become a net energy exporter again.

[UncleEbenezer]

The Times/Bloomberg are reporting that that UK is finalising plans for a fleet of small modular nuclear reactors.

It says Great British Nuclear with Rolls Royce are planning a fleet of 20 to 30 reactors.

In what sense "UK" here?

Are we talking of a government-led plan (aka hot air) or an industry-led one? And in the latter case, is it reliant on government backing? I've heard Rolls Royce are keen on promoting those reactors, so I expect they're pulling strings here.

Oh, right. "Are finalising plans". I thought RR had had ready-baked plans for some time now. I guess there's haggling over budgets going on.

[BullDog]

The Times/Bloomberg are reporting that that UK is finalising plans for a fleet of small modular nuclear reactors.

It says Great British Nuclear with Rolls Royce are planning a fleet of 20 to 30 reactors.

In what sense "UK" here?

Are we talking of a government-led plan (aka hot air) or an industry-led one? And in the latter case, is it reliant on government backing? I've heard Rolls Royce are keen on promoting those reactors, so I expect they're pulling strings here.

Oh, right. "Are finalising plans". I thought RR had had ready-baked plans for some time now. I guess there's haggling over budgets going on.

Vapourware. Believe it when it happens.

[BullDog]

The Times/Bloomberg are reporting that that UK is finalising plans for a fleet of small modular nuclear reactors.

It says Great British Nuclear with Rolls Royce are planning a fleet of 20 to 30 reactors.

In what sense "UK" here?

Are we talking of a government-led plan (aka hot air) or an industry-led one? And in the latter case, is it reliant on government backing? I've heard Rolls Royce are keen on promoting those reactors, so I expect they're pulling strings here.

Oh, right. "Are finalising plans". I thought RR had had ready-baked plans for some time now. I guess there's haggling over budgets going on.

Vapourware. Believe it when it happens.

Well, we shall see. Theres things going on all over the world wrt to SMR development.

I would be absolutely delighted if RR pull this off.

There's quite a few things that make very little sense though. As a general rule, the bigger you build stuff the better it performs in all respects, technically and financially. With something as complex as a nuclear reactor much of the gubbins that goes to build it is pretty much the same whether the station generates 300mw or 3000mw. All the safety and control systems are the same, the safeguards are the same, the buildings won't be a tenth of the size etc...... All the talk seems to be around modularity in the build. But a great deal of that happens already. Stuff like concrete reactor containment will always have to built on site and the small ones won't really be a tenth of the size anyway. Cooling system skids, control systems, turbine generators, transformers and switch gear are all already built as far as possible off site and lifted in. HV and LV cabling has to be pulled in on site in the main no matter the size of the plant. And it actually costs pretty much the same in terms of man hours to design a 300mw plant as a 3000mw plant. I honestly don't really understand what all the fuss is about regarding building smaller power stations. But hey ho, what do I know? I suppose after nearly 50 years an an engineer in the energy business, not much.

[UncleEbenezer]

There's quite a few things that make very little sense though.

I'm not qualified to comment on the engineering merits or otherwise of the proposals.

But I can see one thing that might make a lot of sense: namely, the societal and political problems associated with "traditional" nukes. If they're saying "this is different, and here's some good reasons ...", could that radically improve the prospects of not getting interminably bogged down?

[BullDog]

There's quite a few things that make very little sense though.

I'm not qualified to comment on the engineering merits or otherwise of the proposals.

But I can see one thing that might make a lot of sense: namely, the societal and political problems associated with "traditional" nukes. If they're saying "this is different, and here's some good reasons ...", could that radically improve the prospects of not getting interminably bogged down?

Doubt it. Build one and have one multi year wrangle over getting it built. Build ten and have ten multi years wrangles getting them built? All the issues that people protest about are there just the same whether it's a 300 or a 3000mw power station.

[staffordian]

The Times/Bloomberg are reporting that that UK is finalising plans for a fleet of small modular nuclear reactors.

It says Great British Nuclear with Rolls Royce are planning a fleet of 20 to 30 reactors.

In what sense "UK" here?

Are we talking of a government-led plan (aka hot air) or an industry-led one? And in the latter case, is it reliant on government backing? I've heard Rolls Royce are keen on promoting those reactors, so I expect they're pulling strings here.

Oh, right. "Are finalising plans". I thought RR had had ready-baked plans for some time now. I guess there's haggling over budgets going on.

Vapourware. Believe it when it happens.

Well, we shall see. Theres things going on all over the world wrt to SMR development.

I would be absolutely delighted if RR pull this off.

There's quite a few things that make very little sense though. As a general rule, the bigger you build stuff the better it performs in all respects, technically and financially. With something as complex as a nuclear reactor much of the gubbins that goes to build it is pretty much the same whether the station generates 300mw or 3000mw. All the safety and control systems are the same, the safeguards are the same, the buildings won't be a tenth of the size etc...... All the talk seems to be around modularity in the build. But a great deal of that happens already. Stuff like concrete reactor containment will always have to built on site and the small ones won't really be a tenth of the size anyway. Cooling system skids, control systems, turbine generators, transformers and switch gear are all already built as far as possible off site and lifted in. HV and LV cabling has to be pulled in on site in the main no matter the size of the plant. And it actually costs pretty much the same in terms of man hours to design a 300mw plant as a 3000mw plant. I honestly don't really understand what all the fuss is about regarding building smaller power stations. But hey ho, what do I know? I suppose after nearly 50 years an an engineer in the energy business, not much.

I must say that when I first heard about this a couple of years back, it made perfect sense to me as RR in Derby have had a factory there for many years specialising in small nuclear reactors for Navy submarines.

I assumed (probably wrongly!) that repurposing something similar for onshore power generation would be a relatively straightforward task for a company with this expertise in mobile nuclear plants, but maybe it is as oven ready as Boris's deal was...

[BullDog]

In what sense "UK" here?

Are we talking of a government-led plan (aka hot air) or an industry-led one? And in the latter case, is it reliant on government backing? I've heard Rolls Royce are keen on promoting those reactors, so I expect they're pulling strings here.

Oh, right. "Are finalising plans". I thought RR had had ready-baked plans for some time now. I guess there's haggling over budgets going on.

Vapourware. Believe it when it happens.

Well, we shall see. Theres things going on all over the world wrt to SMR development.

I would be absolutely delighted if RR pull this off.

There's quite a few things that make very little sense though. As a general rule, the bigger you build stuff the better it performs in all respects, technically and financially. With something as complex as a nuclear reactor much of the gubbins that goes to build it is pretty much the same whether the station generates 300mw or 3000mw. All the safety and control systems are the same, the safeguards are the same, the buildings won't be a tenth of the size etc...... All the talk seems to be around modularity in the build. But a great deal of that happens already. Stuff like concrete reactor containment will always have to built on site and the small ones won't really be a tenth of the size anyway. Cooling system skids, control systems, turbine generators, transformers and switch gear are all already built as far as possible off site and lifted in. HV and LV cabling has to be pulled in on site in the main no matter the size of the plant. And it actually costs pretty much the same in terms of man hours to design a 300mw plant as a 3000mw plant. I honestly don't really understand what all the fuss is about regarding building smaller power stations. But hey ho, what do I know? I suppose after nearly 50 years an an engineer in the energy business, not much.

I must say that when I first heard about this a couple of years back, it made perfect sense to me as RR in Derby have had a factory there for many years specialising in small nuclear reactors for Navy submarines.

I assumed (probably wrongly!) that repurposing something similar for onshore power generation would be a relatively straightforward task for a company with this expertise in mobile nuclear plants, but maybe it is as oven ready as Boris's deal was...

Nothing would make me happier (well, I suppose something actually could) to see a RR civil nuclear reactor. Don't forget that nuclear power stations indeed used to be far smaller than the designs built today. And there's perfectly sound reasons for that of course. I see the present round of SMR activity as little more than engineering and management companies spending mostly tax payer money on keeping themselves employed. Ultimately I expect this to be a commercial dead end and abandoned by most if not all parties. It's not actually impossible to build large state of the art nuclear power stations on time and to budget. Barakah in UAE is perhaps the best recent example of that.

The UK? I decline to work in the nuclear industry. I was on a nuclear energy project for just over two years. I discovered that half the project team was working to build the facility whilst the other half of the team was employed to put every possible obstacle in the way of doing so. As a result of that experience I never worked in the nuclear industry again, declining a role on all the various projects that have come and gone the last decade or so.

I actually know people who worked their entire career in the UK civil nuclear industry and never saw a single project they worked on ever get built. I can't actually see that changing. But I would be delighted if it did.

[UncleEbenezer]

73.3% of UK electricity (20.32GW) coming from the wind. We're generating 119% of our demand.

Impressive.

Had a good curry?

More to the point, what's the source of that? In particular, of what total figure is that 73.3%? And how long was it sustained?

A bit of googling and back-of-envelope calculation[1] suggests household consumption a little under half of that 20.32 GW. But that's averaged over all hours, days, seasons, which leaves plenty of scope for peak usage going well above 20.3 Gw.

[1] Average household electric consumption 2900KwH/year, which is 9.4 Kw average (source: British Gas). And 27.8m households (ONS).

[DrFfybes]

I would be absolutely delighted if RR pull this off.

There's quite a few things that make very little sense though. As a general rule, the bigger you build stuff the better it performs in all respects, technically and financially. With something as complex as a nuclear reactor much of the gubbins that goes to build it is pretty much the same whether the station generates 300mw or 3000mw......

A quick Google brings up https://www.energy.gov/ne/benefits-smal ... ctors-smrs which presents some pretty convincing sounding arguements which a suspect apply equally on this side of the Atlantic. A more balanced view here https://eciu.net/analysis/briefings/uk- ... r-reactors

I do think a lot of the 'upsides' are exaggerated - use in remote areas is idealogically sound, but security would be an issue, but to power a small island???

Besides, they aren't selling them to you, they're selling them to Politicians who want to ensure UK economic development and Energy Sovereignty without having to rely on those blasted Continentals for their investment and expertise (you know, like the ones building in Somerset). Of course once built they can be sold off to the Chinese and Russians, but obviously not for a while yet.

One advantage I thought was large reactors are not easily adjustable for output- they are 'on' or 'off' rather than easily modulated, and have a startup time of 12 hours or even days. A number of SMRs would provide this sort of modulatability AIUI they can be activated from a semi standby state in a couple of hours.

I assumed (probably wrongly!) that repurposing something similar for onshore power generation would be a relatively straightforward task for a company with this expertise in mobile nuclear plants, but maybe it is as oven ready as Boris's deal was...

Who says it needs to be onshore? Shove a couple next to an offshore windfarm and use the existing cabling - powering them up on the days where wind is expected to be low. Of course having them onshore means you can also use the excess heat generated for District Heating systems.

I too would like to see these succeed, I do see them as a potential addition to other low carbon energy sources.

Paul

[88V8]

Wind generation was 15 to 18GW almost all of yesterday. It's been 10-15GW for a few weeks now apart from a day last week when it dropped to 4.
The 119% of demand was our total generation from all sources btw.

And if we'd been sensible enough to match our gen capacity with batteries we'd be sitting a lot prettier. Why do politicos never talk about batteries.... perhaps they lack the glamour factor in photo opportunities.

V8