TfL Older Persons’ Freedom Pass and 60+ Oyster changes

[Spet0789]

On a somewhat-tangential note ...
Having reached the 60 milestone, I was very pleased to get my Old Fart's Railcard. But I've not considered travel in and around London.

This pass requires you to be resident in London, which excludes those of us who could never afford any such thing. If I wanted to travel around London (having used a regular train to get to one of its mainline stations), are there any free options for that?

I have a railcard, so on the rare occasions that the trains are running, and I want to go to London, my railcard reduces the price by 33%. I nearly always buy a travelcard (ie train journey to London plus unlimited underground) because my railcard saves me 33% on the extra, which a travelcard costs, and that means I save money even if I only take two tube journeys.

Just as an aside, where I live, there is virtually no public transport. My nearest bus stop (three buses a day) is a mile away, and my nearest railway station is 20 miles away. Since I am helping subsidise the London Underground through my taxes - yes, even pensions are taxed - is there a good reason why I should not be entitled to free travel on the London Underground?

By that logic, every taxpayer should get free travel! Which is a policy course, but not a sensible one in a country where 80% ish of the cost of public transport is met by fares.

[Arborbridge]

If its that good for the economy, why not offer free public transport to all? All this talk of forcing up fares for those forced to travel for work so others can swan around for museums and nice lunchees!

I may be wrong, but I believe some major cities abroad have free fares? It's just a different way of organising finances - nothing is impossible. Maybe there is some sense in having free transport for all - it keeps down pollution and stimulates trade.

Swan around museums is a bit unecessarily emotive: most of those older people spent years travelling to work themselves, and this is just one generation's appreciation of another - and it is an economic stimulus which is also helping to keep those working in Cities in a job: what's called enlightened self-interest. We've seen how dead the city centre economies were when Covid struck, and older people coming back to Town in larger numbers if transport is free, is part of the fabric.

I'd say there's an expression that fits your complaint: you are in danger of "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Arb.

The younger generation demonstrates its appreciation by paying for the pensions and healthcare of the older generation. They don’t need a free £3k handout on top.

That's called acting in enlightened self-interest, just as my generation did, and you've conveniently ignored the fact that this is a benign stimulation to the economy which helps younger people too. All generations benefit.
We mustn't forget context here: initiatives like winter fuel payments and free bus passes were all instituted as a makeweight for the time when pensions were falling behind. To remove them now would be to betray that act.
As a matter of interest, when I was (as the younger generation) paying for my predecessors state pensions, it was possible to live on that pension and even save for a rainy day. I know: my father was doing it.
No way could one do that now so the compact has been broken by this younger generation. Unfortunately, a one off chance to redress this was missed when the government reneged on the triple lock a couple of years ago claiming that average wage rises were an anomaly and somehow didn't count. That worked out well when inflation took off, NOT.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

On a somewhat-tangential note ...
Having reached the 60 milestone, I was very pleased to get my Old Fart's Railcard. But I've not considered travel in and around London.

This pass requires you to be resident in London, which excludes those of us who could never afford any such thing. If I wanted to travel around London (having used a regular train to get to one of its mainline stations), are there any free options for that?

Walk or cycle.

Must be mad to cycle in London - especially those of older years! Though, while I'm at it, I should point out that cyclists are far more danger to older pedestrians that cars are. The near misses I've had have all been from bikes breaking the law or being downright callous in their driving "through" people. London isn't as bad as Amsterdam, yet. Cars rarely behave this way.

I realise I'm doing what I've picked other people up for: generalising from the particular - but I can only speak from my own experience in this matter.

Arb.

[James]

On a somewhat-tangential note ...
Having reached the 60 milestone, I was very pleased to get my Old Fart's Railcard. But I've not considered travel in and around London.

This pass requires you to be resident in London, which excludes those of us who could never afford any such thing. If I wanted to travel around London (having used a regular train to get to one of its mainline stations), are there any free options for that?

Walk or cycle.

Must be mad to cycle in London - especially those of older years! Though, while I'm at it, I should point out that cyclists are far more danger to older pedestrians that cars are. The near misses I've had have all been from bikes breaking the law or being downright callous in their driving "through" people. London isn't as bad as Amsterdam, yet. Cars rarely behave this way.

I realise I'm doing what I've picked other people up for: generalising from the particular - but I can only speak from my own experience in this matter.

Arb.

I should point out that old people are far more danger to cyclists that other pedestrians are. The near misses I've had from old people walking out on to the road without looking or not hearing bells/shouted warnings. If only London were as good as Amsterdam.

[UncleEbenezer]

Must be mad to cycle in London - especially those of older years! Though, while I'm at it, I should point out that cyclists are far more danger to older pedestrians that cars are. The near misses I've had have all been from bikes breaking the law or being downright callous in their driving "through" people. London isn't as bad as Amsterdam, yet. Cars rarely behave this way.
Arb.

The statistics say otherwise. Very firmly so.

[James]

Must be mad to cycle in London - especially those of older years! Though, while I'm at it, I should point out that cyclists are far more danger to older pedestrians that cars are. The near misses I've had have all been from bikes breaking the law or being downright callous in their driving "through" people. London isn't as bad as Amsterdam, yet. Cars rarely behave this way.
Arb.

The statistics say otherwise. Very firmly so.

Oh, right, I though we were 'generalising from the particular'.
Where do your statistics come from?
I can't find a direct comparrison, but a cursory google shows cycle-derived pedestrian accidents appear to be a tiny minority of total pedestrian accidents.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... sheet-2021
says: In 2021, 361 pedestrians were killed in Great Britain, whilst 5,032 were reported to be seriously injured (adjusted) and 11,261 slightly injured (adjusted).

c.f.
https://www.jerseyeveningpost.com/motor ... es-reveal/
531 Number of people involved in accidents with cyclists last year

[swill453]

Not sure why the threshold for free travel is 60 years old rather than the state pension age. Seems too young.

don't knockit , it suits me

Me too.

And me. In Scotland we all get our National Entitlement Card (aka bus pass) at 60. We don't have loads of buses near us, but we can get a nice new electric bus into Glasgow or Edinburgh for nowt.

Scott.

[Arborbridge]

I should point out that old people are far more danger to cyclists that other pedestrians are. The near misses I've had from old people walking out on to the road without looking or not hearing bells/shouted warnings. If only London were as good as Amsterdam.

Bells!? One of the pet complaints in our walking group is that cyclists do not use bells. If only they would, it might help.

[Arborbridge]

Must be mad to cycle in London - especially those of older years! Though, while I'm at it, I should point out that cyclists are far more danger to older pedestrians that cars are. The near misses I've had have all been from bikes breaking the law or being downright callous in their driving "through" people. London isn't as bad as Amsterdam, yet. Cars rarely behave this way.
Arb.

The statistics say otherwise. Very firmly so.

Oh, right, I though we were 'generalising from the particular'.
Where do your statistics come from?
I can't find a direct comparrison, but a cursory google shows cycle-derived pedestrian accidents appear to be a tiny minority of total pedestrian accidents.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... sheet-2021
says: In 2021, 361 pedestrians were killed in Great Britain, whilst 5,032 were reported to be seriously injured (adjusted) and 11,261 slightly injured (adjusted).

c.f.
https://www.jerseyeveningpost.com/motor ... es-reveal/
531 Number of people involved in accidents with cyclists last year

I've had lots of near misses. I don't know if near misses are proportional to accidents, but to the survivors near misses are quite important too, and very scary. Cyclists do not seem aware that they are playing Russian roulette when they ride as though they will not take prisoners, jumping lights as they go.
Again, I can only speak according to my experience, but cars and buses are more predictable and easier to see than a thin profile of a bike coming out of the gloaming with insignificant lights ,if any, often shooting between lines of traffic as people are trying to cross the road in stationary traffic. Some are good, of course, but many drive like bats out of hell and very much on the pricniple that no one will make a mistake or get in their way - otherwise they would not cut through crowds at speed.

Arb.

[James]

r

I've had lots of near misses. I don't know if near misses are proportional to accidents, but to the survivors near misses are quite important too, and very scary. Cyclists do not seem aware that they are playing Russian roulette when they ride as though they will not take prisoners, jumping lights as they go.
Again, I can only speak according to my experience, but cars and buses are more predictable and easier to see than a thin profile of a bike coming out of the gloaming with insignificant lights ,if any, often shooting between lines of traffic as people are trying to cross the road in stationary traffic. Some are good, of course, but many drive like bats out of hell and very much on the pricniple that no one will make a mistake or get in their way - otherwise they would not cut through crowds at speed.

Arb.

Gosh, we are into the personal anecdote as evidence, aren't we.
Ok then... pedestrians are not aware they are playing Russian roulette when they walk into the road without looking to see if anything is coming, ignoring no crossing signs as they go.
Cars and busses are more predictable and easier to see than a thin profile of a pedestrian stepping into your path without any lighting, often walking between cars rather than using crossings and not realising that filtering on cycles is perfectly legal.
Some are good, of course, but many walk like they are blnd as bats on the principle that no one will make a mistake or get in their way - otherwise they would not stray off footpaths at speed.

[Spet0789]

On a somewhat-tangential note ...
Having reached the 60 milestone, I was very pleased to get my Old Fart's Railcard. But I've not considered travel in and around London.

This pass requires you to be resident in London, which excludes those of us who could never afford any such thing. If I wanted to travel around London (having used a regular train to get to one of its mainline stations), are there any free options for that?

Walk or cycle.

Must be mad to cycle in London - especially those of older years! Though, while I'm at it, I should point out that cyclists are far more danger to older pedestrians that cars are. The near misses I've had have all been from bikes breaking the law or being downright callous in their driving "through" people. London isn't as bad as Amsterdam, yet. Cars rarely behave this way.

I realise I'm doing what I've picked other people up for: generalising from the particular - but I can only speak from my own experience in this matter.

Arb.

I cycle in London several times a week. So I must be one of those mad ones!

Your statement re danger is very odd… I’d bet a lot of money that 10x as many old people are killed by cars than bikes.

[Spet0789]

I should point out that old people are far more danger to cyclists that other pedestrians are. The near misses I've had from old people walking out on to the road without looking or not hearing bells/shouted warnings. If only London were as good as Amsterdam.

Bells!? One of the pet complaints in our walking group is that cyclists do not use bells. If only they would, it might help.

I have a bell on my bike. One of my pet complaints about walking groups is that they block the road or path by walking along in a massive gaggle, chatting away!

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
In my view, the discussion of accident rates for different modes of transport is off-topic for LBYM. Please consider taking such discussion elsewhere. (chas49)

[Arborbridge]

I should point out that old people are far more danger to cyclists that other pedestrians are. The near misses I've had from old people walking out on to the road without looking or not hearing bells/shouted warnings. If only London were as good as Amsterdam.

Bells!? One of the pet complaints in our walking group is that cyclists do not use bells. If only they would, it might help.

I have a bell on my bike. One of my pet complaints about walking groups is that they block the road or path by walking along in a massive gaggle, chatting away!

My son would back you up! I asked him about bells on country paths and his POV was that he's given up using them and decided it's best to just "go" and cut through the gaggle. The reasoning is that the reactions of the walking group varies: some freeze, some stand one side, some the other side.
But I'd still like to have some warning - perhaps a warning further back would help - and I really am surprised that most rough-country cyclists do not have any way of warning walkers. I know we have to share, but some long distance paths are not pleasant for walking anymore: the South Downs way in parts, is like a motorway of bikes.

[gnawsome]

The younger generation demonstrates its appreciation by paying for the pensions and healthcare of the older generation. They don’t need a free £3k handout on top.

The younger generation having been reared by the older generation and benefiting from the wisdom and infrastructure provided by all the earlier generations... that's just how it is meant to work and always a portion of the new generation whinges

[Spet0789]

The younger generation demonstrates its appreciation by paying for the pensions and healthcare of the older generation. They don’t need a free £3k handout on top.

The younger generation having been reared by the older generation and benefiting from the wisdom and infrastructure provided by all the earlier generations... that's just how it is meant to work and always a portion of the new generation whinges

Two points. First, assuming you are older than me, you didn’t rear me. My own parents did and my debt is to them. Second, this current older generation is the first in history which is financially better off than those of working age. Think about that.

[mc2fool]

The younger generation demonstrates its appreciation by paying for the pensions and healthcare of the older generation. They don’t need a free £3k handout on top.

The younger generation having been reared by the older generation and benefiting from the wisdom and infrastructure provided by all the earlier generations... that's just how it is meant to work and always a portion of the new generation whinges

Two points. First, assuming you are older than me, you didn’t rear me. My own parents did and my debt is to them. Second, this current older generation is the first in history which is financially better off than those of working age. Think about that.

Hmmm ... do you have a source to support that? Anecdotally I might agree that might be the case in the UK since WWII, but the first in history?

And in any case, isn't that what you'd expect and the way it "should" be? Elders have (mostly) worked all their lives, (should have) built up their savings & pensions, paid off the mortgage and got rid of their biggest financial liabilities (the kids ), while those of working age are, well, in the opposite situation for all of those.

[pje16]

And in any case, isn't that what you'd expect and the way it "should" be? Elders have (mostly) worked all their lives, (should have) built up their savings & pensions, paid off the mortgage and got rid of their biggest financial liabilities (the kids ), while those of working age are, well, in the opposite situation for all of those.

2 generations time will be funny
credit card debt upon credit card debt,
loans, debts etc
when I die I leave you .......
and before someone says back that up
here you are
https://themoneycharity.org.uk/money-statistics/

[Lootman]

The younger generation demonstrates its appreciation by paying for the pensions and healthcare of the older generation. They don’t need a free £3k handout on top.

The younger generation having been reared by the older generation and benefiting from the wisdom and infrastructure provided by all the earlier generations... that's just how it is meant to work and always a portion of the new generation whinges

Two points. First, assuming you are older than me, you didn’t rear me. My own parents did and my debt is to them. Second, this current older generation is the first in history which is financially better off than those of working age. Think about that.

Hmmm ... do you have a source to support that? Anecdotally I might agree that might be the case in the UK since WWII, but the first in history?

And in any case, isn't that what you'd expect and the way it "should" be? Elders have (mostly) worked all their lives, (should have) built up their savings & pensions, paid off the mortgage and got rid of their biggest financial liabilities (the kids ), while those of working age are, well, in the opposite situation for all of those.

And moreover when those wrinklies die, guess who inherits that boomer pot of gold?

[gnawsome]

Two points. First, assuming you are older than me, you didn’t rear me. My own parents did and my debt is to them. Second, this current older generation is the first in history which is financially better off than those of working age. Think about that.

1st Point; I'm sure we are equally happy about that
2nd Point; May or not be true in financial sense but my offspring will find themselves better of from any inheritance they receive such that - together with their own efforts - they will be considerably better off than I will ever have known