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Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

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DrFfybes
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Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635543

Postby DrFfybes » December 21st, 2023, 1:46 pm

In March of this year we had a refurb at one end of the house, which included removing the old woodburner and installing a Mitsubishi Air to Air split unit. We live in a draughty house, 2 old farm worker cottages from the 1790s with some 1950s add ons, uneven floors, large gaps around odd shaped doors, and a lot of windows.

The old woodburner never worked well, was not controllable, and was installed badly. The room was used as an office but only 3 days a week so instant heat was preferred, MrsF would get focussed on work and forget to add wood, etc. We removed it as part of the refurb as the hearth has been laid on top of the carpet, and plaster reinstatement behind was poor, and at the last service the flue was discovered to have been installed in 2 pieces and there was a gap in the join.

Religning the chimney was required, quoted at £1500. The air to air unit was £1100. A modern stove was also another £2k or so, so depite having about 5 tonne of wood stacked up, we cut off the flue and bricked up the hole, vented the chimney, at the bottom, and gained a lot of floor space.

Previously we had been using the main lounge, 18 x 12 feet, 3 external cavity walls, one window and 2 patio doors (no, we don't know why either), and running a 'living flame' gas fire for evening heat rather than heat the whole house. on 'low' this seemed to use about 4.4kW per hour, so costs about 30p/h or £1.50/evening This gradually crept the room from 15C or so up to 17 or sometimes even 18C during the evening when the blankets could come off our knees.

As part of the building works the old lounge is being knocked though, so some shuffling and a storage unit and MrsF's office is the new lounge. 12 x 15 feet, 2 solid external walls but with 35mm insulated plasterboard on the external walls, and 3 windows. And the air to air unit, like this inside...
https://mhi-hvac.co.uk/our-products/res ... t-systems/

There has been a bit of getting it comfortable, adjusting flow angles, set temp, operating mode, fan speed to warm the room but avoid sudden draughts, etc, however we now leave it set to 23C in Eco mode, which according to the datalogger holds 18C at coffee table height with minimal fan speed and virtually no noise.

Energy consumption calcs are tricky, as we have solar and battery, so the smart meter readings are only of use once the battery is flat, by which time we're turning it off and going to bed. I did leave it on overnight by mistake one night, but I basically compared our daily import of electricity for the periods before we moved over and afterwards, and added on any solar generation. The result has been an increase of electricity use of circa 3.3kWh/day, so about £1/day extra.

However, there is more to this. The room is warmer, getting swiftly to 18C and somtimes we turn it down as it gets to 19C. We also run it for most of the day now, as with half the house full of dust and rubble we've hunkered down at this end. I put it on at 1pm when we came in for lunch and the coffee table is saying 18.5C some 40 min later. Combined with looking at the 30 min evening data from after the battery goes flat, it seems we use about 150-200Whrs more than our background 160Whr/30 min period in the small hours, so the actual running use of the system seems to be about 350W, so about 10p/hour - a third of the cost of running the gas fire.

OK, so the room is a bit smaller, better insulated, but both have thick curtains, the same solid floor, and it is more comfortable, but if you're one of the hundreds of people who are getting a nice modern trendy woodburner installed each week, it might be worth thinking about one of these instead. Once the new room at the pther end of the house is done we will be gettting one in there (planning permission required for a second external unit) instead of the other options we considered (woodburner, gas fired 'woodburner' style heater, etc).

And in the summer they cool the house using energy from the solar panels :)

Paul

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635547

Postby Tedx » December 21st, 2023, 2:04 pm

Tell me, these things would be suitable if you went off for a couple of months over winter and left the house empty - say, set to a frost free temperature (5 degrees?) - I'm thinking that the outdoor unit would be barely running and unlikely to bother the neighbours

Im assuming that they can be controlled remotely via an app?

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635557

Postby staffordian » December 21st, 2023, 2:46 pm

DrFfybes wrote:Once the new room at the pther end of the house is done we will be gettting one in there (planning permission required for a second external unit) instead of the other options we considered (woodburner, gas fired 'woodburner' style heater, etc).


I'm no expert, but I understood that many (all?) of these external units could support a second internal unit. Or might the issue be the remoteness of the proposed second internal unit from the existing external one?

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635562

Postby funduffer » December 21st, 2023, 2:58 pm

We also have a Daikin Air-to-air running in our living room, and it also runs at about 300-500W once the room is warm, depending on the outside air temperature. It can heat the room really quickly and is very quiet. The air-con in the summer is a bonus. Cost was about the same as Paul's, about £1200.

We also have solar and tend to use the aircon when there is enough excess solar during the day in wintertime, in preference to the gas central heating which heats the whole house. After dark we revert to the central heating, thus saving the gas we would have burned during the day to keep the house warm.

The ASHP has a COP of about 4, and using solar generated electricity we could have exported at 12p per kWh, it therefore costs us 12/4=3p per kWh to heat the room. Gas is about 7p/kWh but we would use a lot more of it for the central heating as it would heat the whole house.

If there is no solar going spare it would cost us about 28/4=7p per kWh to run, about the same as gas, but just one room of course.

We also use the Onecta App on my phone. This means we can control the heat pump remotely. It is nice to warm up the room half an hour before we get home when we have been out for the day. Much quicker than the central heating.

FD

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635576

Postby bluedonkey » December 21st, 2023, 3:49 pm

I am only just getting familiar with air source heat pumps as a central heating solution. What's the difference between that and what you are describing? Thanks.

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635581

Postby staffordian » December 21st, 2023, 4:17 pm

bluedonkey wrote:I am only just getting familiar with air source heat pumps as a central heating solution. What's the difference between that and what you are describing? Thanks.

In a nut shell, heat pumps provide hot (well, warm) water which is then pumped round an existing radiator or underfloor system. It can provide domestic hot water too.

Air to air uses a somewhat similar external unit but is connected by pipes to one or more internal heat exchange units. These blow out warm air. In addition they can blow out cooled air so are useful in summer too. The main issue is that they provide no domestic hot water so separate provision has to be made for it.

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635588

Postby bluedonkey » December 21st, 2023, 4:50 pm

staffordian wrote:
bluedonkey wrote:I am only just getting familiar with air source heat pumps as a central heating solution. What's the difference between that and what you are describing? Thanks.

In a nut shell, heat pumps provide hot (well, warm) water which is then pumped round an existing radiator or underfloor system. It can provide domestic hot water too.

Air to air uses a somewhat similar external unit but is connected by pipes to one or more internal heat exchange units. These blow out warm air. In addition they can blow out cooled air so are useful in summer too. The main issue is that they provide no domestic hot water so separate provision has to be made for it.

How does the energy efficiency compare?

DrFfybes
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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635596

Postby DrFfybes » December 21st, 2023, 5:18 pm

Tedx wrote:Tell me, these things would be suitable if you went off for a couple of months over winter and left the house empty - say, set to a frost free temperature (5 degrees?) - I'm thinking that the outdoor unit would be barely running and unlikely to bother the neighbours

Im assuming that they can be controlled remotely via an app?


Some can, some can't - it depends on the internal unit, Ours doesn't, however they all hve a timer system. Ours can't be set lower than 18C though, so you'd again need to check on the spec of the internal unit. Some can connect to a smart external thermostat.

staffordian wrote:I'm no expert, but I understood that many (all?) of these external units could support a second internal unit. Or might the issue be the remoteness of the proposed second internal unit from the existing external one?


AIUI the multi splits need a larger external unit. The quotes for one external and 2 internal units were approaching double the cost of a single room setup. For us they are at opposite ends of the house and around a porch, so about 22 metres of pipework to the new room.

funduffer wrote: Gas is about 7p/kWh but we would use a lot more of it for the central heating as it would heat the whole house.

This is the main consideration, you are only heating a smaller space, and having just wandered into the kitchen to feed the dog it was chuffin cold (although the other side of the kitchen is the hall, which is effectively outside). Yesterday for a change I put the heating on all day as MrsF was working in the old dining room (now and office/bed/junk room). After the initial system warmup it settled at about 6kWhr gas use with just the downstairs TRVs turned on. The heating normally comes on for 30 min before bed time just so it is comfortable going upstairs.

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635619

Postby staffordian » December 21st, 2023, 7:21 pm

bluedonkey wrote:
staffordian wrote:In a nut shell, heat pumps provide hot (well, warm) water which is then pumped round an existing radiator or underfloor system. It can provide domestic hot water too.

Air to air uses a somewhat similar external unit but is connected by pipes to one or more internal heat exchange units. These blow out warm air. In addition they can blow out cooled air so are useful in summer too. The main issue is that they provide no domestic hot water so separate provision has to be made for it.

How does the energy efficiency compare?


I've no experience of either but have kept abreast of them as they appear to be the way things are going.

I'm assuming you mean air to air v heat pump? In which case I'd say it's comparing apples and pears. I see heat pumps as while house systems supposedly a swap for a gas central heating system, whereas air to air is more a one (or two) room solution, more analogous to a gas fire or log burner.

If you mean how do heat pumps stack up v gas central heating systems, that's a whole other can of worms...

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635645

Postby servodude » December 21st, 2023, 9:42 pm

DrFfybes wrote:
Tedx wrote:Tell me, these things would be suitable if you went off for a couple of months over winter and left the house empty - say, set to a frost free temperature (5 degrees?) - I'm thinking that the outdoor unit would be barely running and unlikely to bother the neighbours

Im assuming that they can be controlled remotely via an app?


Some can, some can't - it depends on the internal unit, Ours doesn't, however they all have a timer system.


I've seen older units driven from apps via wifi devices (universal IR remotes) that are trained with the necessary remote commands
- that gives you control but not visibility of the state

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635656

Postby DrFfybes » December 21st, 2023, 11:10 pm

Hmm, wonder if it can be controlled with one of these...

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... ntrol+wand

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635786

Postby funduffer » December 22nd, 2023, 4:22 pm

bluedonkey wrote:
staffordian wrote:In a nut shell, heat pumps provide hot (well, warm) water which is then pumped round an existing radiator or underfloor system. It can provide domestic hot water too.

Air to air uses a somewhat similar external unit but is connected by pipes to one or more internal heat exchange units. These blow out warm air. In addition they can blow out cooled air so are useful in summer too. The main issue is that they provide no domestic hot water so separate provision has to be made for it.

How does the energy efficiency compare?

A heat pump is a heat pump, whether it drives an air-con unit or a water based central heating system, and has a Coefficient of Performance (COP) of about 4 - i.e. 1kW of electrical input will produce about 4kW of heat (or cooling). COP varies according to outside air temperature. If you want 20C indoors and it is 0C outdoors then you will need more power to produce 1kW of heat than if it is 10C outdoors. COP varies between about 3 and 5 on a modern unit.

If you have an air-to-air system (i.e. an air-con unit), then the advantage is it can blow out warm air when it is cold or cold air when it is hot. A water+radiator central heating system based on a heat pump transfers the heat into the water, which can then be used to heat the radiators or provide hot water. Both are driven by a heat pump installed on the outside of the house.

Pro's and Con's of an heat pump driven air-con system: it can cool as well as heat, it doesn't need radiators around the house. However, it can't provide hot water and needs vents in all the rooms, and needs either multiple heat pumps or a large multi-split unit. These systems are popular in USA and Scandinavia because houses are more commonly constructed with hot air vents around the house, rather than water filled radiators.

Pro's and Con' of a heat pump driven water central heating system: it only needs one large heat pump, it can provide hot water. However, it may need you to re-size the radiators and add insulation to the house as the system runs most efficiently with a low water temperature. These are more common in the UK, because most houses here have water based central heating systems.

There are all sorts of other aspects, but these are the main points.

FD

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635866

Postby Mike4 » December 22nd, 2023, 10:35 pm

funduffer wrote:
bluedonkey wrote:How does the energy efficiency compare?

A heat pump is a heat pump, whether it drives an air-con unit or a water based central heating system, and has a Coefficient of Performance (COP) of about 4 - i.e. 1kW of electrical input will produce about 4kW of heat (or cooling). COP varies according to outside air temperature. If you want 20C indoors and it is 0C outdoors then you will need more power to produce 1kW of heat than if it is 10C outdoors. COP varies between about 3 and 5 on a modern unit.

If you have an air-to-air system (i.e. an air-con unit), then the advantage is it can blow out warm air when it is cold or cold air when it is hot. A water+radiator central heating system based on a heat pump transfers the heat into the water, which can then be used to heat the radiators or provide hot water. Both are driven by a heat pump installed on the outside of the house.

Pro's and Con's of an heat pump driven air-con system: it can cool as well as heat, it doesn't need radiators around the house. However, it can't provide hot water and needs vents in all the rooms, and needs either multiple heat pumps or a large multi-split unit. These systems are popular in USA and Scandinavia because houses are more commonly constructed with hot air vents around the house, rather than water filled radiators.

Pro's and Con' of a heat pump driven water central heating system: it only needs one large heat pump, it can provide hot water. However, it may need you to re-size the radiators and add insulation to the house as the system runs most efficiently with a low water temperature. These are more common in the UK, because most houses here have water based central heating systems.

There are all sorts of other aspects, but these are the main points.

FD



Yep I'd agree with all that.

One thing to add though, is the evolution of the language. In the world of plumbing and heating the term "heat pump" is evolving to mean an air-to-water device specifically. While air-to-air installations are known as "split air cons" or "mini-splits".

This is because (in my opinion) the "heat pump" having a water output, can be installed by yer average boiler-fitting grunt. But the air-to-air stuff needs installing by a bod with refrigeration qualifications rather than plumbing and gas, and some more expensive gear in the van than the average boiler fitter will have.

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635882

Postby UncleEbenezer » December 23rd, 2023, 8:09 am

Mike4 wrote:This is because (in my opinion) the "heat pump" having a water output, can be installed by yer average boiler-fitting grunt. But the air-to-air stuff needs installing by a bod with refrigeration qualifications rather than plumbing and gas, and some more expensive gear in the van than the average boiler fitter will have.

What my boiler-fitter told me differs a little from that. As I wrote at the time:
For what it’s worth, I mentioned the heatpump project to my installer. He told me he’d looked at going on a course to qualify to install them, but couldn’t justify the cost and time to qualify in a rare niche when he has an ample and reliable stream of very mainstream work with gas boilers. I expect that’s a common story, and the reason why the one is so much easier than t’other for me as customer to source.


For someone with a van and toolkit and the general dexterity to be a tradesman, I expect either job is simply a matter of going on the right course.

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635888

Postby Mike4 » December 23rd, 2023, 8:50 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Mike4 wrote:This is because (in my opinion) the "heat pump" having a water output, can be installed by yer average boiler-fitting grunt. But the air-to-air stuff needs installing by a bod with refrigeration qualifications rather than plumbing and gas, and some more expensive gear in the van than the average boiler fitter will have.

What my boiler-fitter told me differs a little from that. As I wrote at the time:
For what it’s worth, I mentioned the heatpump project to my installer. He told me he’d looked at going on a course to qualify to install them, but couldn’t justify the cost and time to qualify in a rare niche when he has an ample and reliable stream of very mainstream work with gas boilers. I expect that’s a common story, and the reason why the one is so much easier than t’other for me as customer to source.


For someone with a van and toolkit and the general dexterity to be a tradesman, I expect either job is simply a matter of going on the right course.


Firstly, I did explain that the terminology was evolving, and your boiler was changed quite some while ago IIRC.

Secondly you are right, have done both myself I'd say the manual dexterity is similar but the the tools and equipment for installing refrigeration are WAY more expensive than for fitting gas boilers or air-to-water heat pumps.

Thirdly, yes the fridge ticket required for air-to-air heat pumps is easy to get, and no quals at all are required to fit air-to water BUT, for the custard (plumber slang for 'customer') to get the govt grant that makes air-to-water viable, the installing business has to hold MCS registration which is non-trivial to obtain. It is one massive exercise in bureaucracy, I'm led to believe!

https://mcscertified.com/installers-man ... certified/

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635893

Postby servodude » December 23rd, 2023, 9:12 am

Mike4 wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:What my boiler-fitter told me differs a little from that. As I wrote at the time:


For someone with a van and toolkit and the general dexterity to be a tradesman, I expect either job is simply a matter of going on the right course.


Firstly, I did explain that the terminology was evolving, and your boiler was changed quite some while ago IIRC.

Secondly you are right, have done both myself I'd say the manual dexterity is similar but the the tools and equipment for installing refrigeration are WAY more expensive than for fitting gas boilers or air-to-water heat pumps.

Thirdly, yes the fridge ticket required for air-to-air heat pumps is easy to get, and no quals at all are required to fit air-to water BUT, for the custard (plumber slang for 'customer') to get the govt grant that makes air-to-water viable, the installing business has to hold MCS registration which is non-trivial to obtain. It is one massive exercise in bureaucracy, I'm led to believe!

https://mcscertified.com/installers-man ... certified/


Are you suggesting that, in addition to lay folk not understanding what they are complaining about, this stuff is having to battle with government created problems?
That would be a shame.
There seems to have been some Keyser Söze level misdirection going to to have convinced people that either "heat pumps" or "split systems" are in anyway new technology :(

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Re: Air to air running costs vs gas fire.

#635928

Postby Mike4 » December 23rd, 2023, 11:48 am

servodude wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
Firstly, I did explain that the terminology was evolving, and your boiler was changed quite some while ago IIRC.

Secondly you are right, have done both myself I'd say the manual dexterity is similar but the the tools and equipment for installing refrigeration are WAY more expensive than for fitting gas boilers or air-to-water heat pumps.

Thirdly, yes the fridge ticket required for air-to-air heat pumps is easy to get, and no quals at all are required to fit air-to water BUT, for the custard (plumber slang for 'customer') to get the govt grant that makes air-to-water viable, the installing business has to hold MCS registration which is non-trivial to obtain. It is one massive exercise in bureaucracy, I'm led to believe!

https://mcscertified.com/installers-man ... certified/


Are you suggesting that, in addition to lay folk not understanding what they are complaining about, this stuff is having to battle with government created problems?
That would be a shame.
There seems to have been some Keyser Söze level misdirection going to to have convinced people that either "heat pumps" or "split systems" are in anyway new technology :(


Absolutely I am, and the fees that MCS acredited firms have to pay are reputedly large. No, very large. So large that they need to fit these things in volume to wring a profit despite the £7k grant per installation. This is pure hearsay though. I don't actually know for sure.

Most of my own customers tend to be reasonably smart people who understand it is old fridge tech. But developing products exactly right for the market has not really happned yet. Especially given the massive price they are in the merchants.


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