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SSE PLC Results

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jackdaww
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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141321

Postby jackdaww » May 25th, 2018, 6:55 pm

idpickering wrote:
jackdaww wrote:I have sold all mine at a modest profit and some divis.

utilities seem too difficult to me , so i have none now.

8-)


As is your right jackdaw. May I ask where you deployed the capital released following the sale?

Ian.


===========================

i'm diversifying into cash - for when the big drop comes !

;)
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All you new HYPers out there - jackdaww's wink is to be taken seriously as this is not the philosophy of the board. - Chris

idpickering
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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141322

Postby idpickering » May 25th, 2018, 6:57 pm

jackdaww wrote:
idpickering wrote:
jackdaww wrote:I have sold all mine at a modest profit and some divis.

utilities seem too difficult to me , so i have none now.

8-)


As is your right jackdaw. May I ask where you deployed the capital released following the sale?

Ian.


===========================

i'm diversifying into cash - for when the big drop comes !

;)


Ta very much for coming back on this jackdaw. Good luck.

Ian.

Gengulphus
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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141395

Postby Gengulphus » May 26th, 2018, 4:55 am

Dod101 wrote:The one thing they have not clarified is whether the reduction in the dividend in a couple of years is to reflect the actual lost earnings once the new company is spun out or whether it includes an element of rebasing as well. I would expect the latter because SSE's finances have been looking a bit stretched for some time now.

The results do give "reported operating profit" figures for each of the company's three main segments:

Wholesale: £403.1m
Networks: £669.6m
Retail: £328.0m

So Retail accounts for £328.0m/(£403.1m+£669.6m+328.0m) = 23.4% of reported operating profits, and so one would expect that in a demerger of Retail, around 23.4% of earnings would go into the demerged company and around 76.6% into what's left of SSE, and that the two companies' dividends would reflect that. The planned dividend figures in the results show 2019/2020 dividends equal to 80p/97.5p = about 82.1% of 2018/2019 dividends, noticeably higher than 76.6%, so the results suggest that if anything, there's an element of growth in their 2019/2020 dividend plans, not of rebasing.

That's only an approximate idea, for various reasons - e.g. the various accounting steps from operating profit to earnings probably don't treat the segments identically to each other, and the company they're planning to demerge may not be exactly the same as their Retail segment. But it says that their dividend plans are in the right ballpark for reflecting actual lost earnings, and probably continued underlying dividend growth in line with their current in-line-with-RPI dividend policy.

And if there is nevertheless somehow an element of rebasing in the announced plans, it's clearly a pretty small one, and in particular too small to make any significant difference to how stretched the company's finances are. Which would make it rather pointless... Basically, if SSE deliberately cut their dividend in an effort to make their finances less stretched, I would expect the cut to be a substantial one, of say at least about 25%. Smaller reductions in companies' dividends than that almost always turn out on investigation to have some cause other than a deliberate cut, such as currency exchange effects, rights issue adjustments or following a formula-based dividend policy (e.g. Sainsbury's policy of setting their dividend to make dividend cover = 2). And the reason for that is pretty obvious: if you're a director and you're forced to make yourself unpopular with shareholders with a dividend cut, you might as well do so in a big enough way to avoid having to do it again (*), and preferably also big enough that you can restore your popularity with a return to dividend growth as soon as possible.

(*) When looked at on an annual basis, that is. Just about everyone expects that if a company cuts its interim or final, the following final or interim will be cut in proportion, and so doing that won't generally be considered to be "doing it again".

Gengulphus

Dod101
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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141402

Postby Dod101 » May 26th, 2018, 7:34 am

Thanks Gengulphus. I had not thought of looking at those figures. Very helpful. So basically we are left after the spin off (if it happens) with a different company, still committed to what is now beginning to look like a very stretched dividend, although the management have an excellent record and I think are the ultimate pragmatists. They must have looked carefully at the dividend sustainability before issuing that forward summary of intent so I guess we can take it that they see it as being fine and doable.

The outstanding question is of course what the new company will be able to cough up. With the price cap and the general problems on the retail side that may be different (in other words will they be able to maintain the same forward dividend as SSE itself). I am probably looking for problems that do not exist and we cannot know that one.

Dod

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141494

Postby monabri » May 26th, 2018, 2:16 pm

I looked at the SSE debt levels over the period March 2013 to March 2017. The debt in March 2013 was £6348M and £8486M in March 2017.

My information sources are "MorningStar" for all data other than the debt level figures (these are graphed in "SimplyWallStreet).

I looked at the difference between the dividend paid and the free cash flow per share to calculate how much extra debt would be needed to cover off the dividend - I assessed it over a 5 year period.



SSE have made uncovered dividend payments to the tune of £2325 million over the timeframe. The debt in the same period has risen by £2138m.

Broad-brush, SSE have being overpaying by increasing their debt levels.

So, what will happen if the CMA do not allow SSE to share off it's unloved part of the business - what's Plan B as the current trajectory suggests a crunch.

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141633

Postby Arborbridge » May 27th, 2018, 9:45 am

monabri wrote:I looked at the SSE debt levels over the period March 2013 to March 2017. The debt in March 2013 was £6348M and £8486M in March 2017.


SSE have made uncovered dividend payments to the tune of £2325 million over the timeframe. The debt in the same period has risen by £2138m.

Broad-brush, SSE have being overpaying by increasing their debt levels.




Which begs the question: why did a sober investor such as Dod until reently always promote the idea of SSE being a reliable and well run company? Is this another idea which bites th3e dust?

monabri
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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141641

Postby monabri » May 27th, 2018, 10:16 am

Arb,
It might be coincidental that the uncovered dividend over the last 5 years just happens to be in the same ballpark as the debt increase......but you would think that SSE's CFO would be aware of this as would Mr Market and more importantly the shorters out there. Maybe I'm wrong ( I'm not an accountant) and someone will point out an error or an incorrect assumption.

Why aren't SSE reducing their dividend is my question? Maybe Phillips-Davies and Co. are simply vying for time and the recently announced intention to offload part of the business is a chance to buy time and then re-evaluate the dividend.

Maybe SSE are so confident of their future they are prepared to operate like this ( RDSB / VOD) knowing/ hoping better times are around the corner?

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141676

Postby Steveam » May 27th, 2018, 2:00 pm

I haven’t looked but it might be worth checking the current balance sheet against say, the last five years’ balance sheets. If the net assets are about the same (and it’s always worth a look at the component elements) then what we may be seeing is investment ... When I used to look at these things I’d always start with the balance sheet and notes, then cash flows and notes, then profit and loss and finally the chairman and directors comments. I now buy and sell very little (living off the dividends) unless in line with my slow switch towards collective investments and regional diversification. I do hold SSE and, we’re I thinking of buying or selling I’d look more seriously.

Best wishes,

Steve

tjh290633
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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141679

Postby tjh290633 » May 27th, 2018, 2:09 pm

It might be worth looking at the correlation between borrowing and capital expenditure.

TJH

bluedonkey
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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141719

Postby bluedonkey » May 27th, 2018, 5:48 pm

All interesting comments. If the borrowing has been directed towards capex/investment, then it doesn't appear very successful as FCF has not improved. I appreciate that FCF is cashflow from operations minus capex, but eventually with successful investment you should get a reversal. In others words, poor FCF (<EPS) in some years is at least balanced out by superior FCF (>EPS) in other years.

Dod101
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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141723

Postby Dod101 » May 27th, 2018, 6:03 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Which begs the question: why did a sober investor such as Dod until reently always promote the idea of SSE being a reliable and well run company? Is this another idea which bites th3e dust?


I am no expert but I still think it is a well run company but it seems to have a problem in accepting that it may not be able to keep increasing the dividend each year. It has had a culture of putting the shareholder first (or at least just after its regulator I suppose) and for many years had increased its dividend well above RPI. It I am sure finds it difficult to accept that it may just have to take stock. It is largely because of manobri's point that I sold a chunk in January 2018. Its finances plus the political risk is what changed my thoughts. I still hold some but not a very significant amount, well below my average holding.

Dod

idpickering
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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141801

Postby idpickering » May 28th, 2018, 8:58 am

Dod101 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
Which begs the question: why did a sober investor such as Dod until reently always promote the idea of SSE being a reliable and well run company? Is this another idea which bites th3e dust?


I am no expert but I still think it is a well run company but it seems to have a problem in accepting that it may not be able to keep increasing the dividend each year. It has had a culture of putting the shareholder first (or at least just after its regulator I suppose) and for many years had increased its dividend well above RPI. It I am sure finds it difficult to accept that it may just have to take stock. It is largely because of manobri's point that I sold a chunk in January 2018. Its finances plus the political risk is what changed my thoughts. I still hold some but not a very significant amount, well below my average holding.

Dod


I do regard SSE as one of my mainstay holdings, despite the forthcoming change. I have topped up of late, that being on 17 Jan 18. My total average cost purchase price is 1424p, so I'm still slightly under water with them in capital value terms, and they form 3.1% in capital value terms of my 32 share HYP. I'm not looking at buying more SSE currently. I agree with your assessment of the company Dod, and I'm no expert either. ;)

Ian.

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141847

Postby TUK020 » May 28th, 2018, 11:54 am

The SSE board have very publicly nailed their colours to the mast in terms of progressive dividends.
This is why the board have continued to pay out increasing dividends, even when for several years the earnings and cash flow cannot afford it. For the board to change dividend policy openly would require a number of figures to fall on their swords.

This is why hiving off the retail business and merging it is such a masterstroke political move.
It allows the board to stay in place, but also 'reset' the dividend on the core wholesale and networks business.
It also puts the part of the business most at risk of political interference (any moves to nationalisation would focus first and foremost on voter impact - reducing retail bills) in a separate bucket, with a ready poison pill. Price controls = retail going bust = lights going out = explain that Mr Corbyn.

This would give the board another 5 years on the gravy train at the wholesale and networks part, then they can retire and let someone else sort it out.

Perhaps that is a bit cynical........

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141858

Postby Dod101 » May 28th, 2018, 12:35 pm

I think TUK020 is more or less correct except as Gengulphus helpfully pointed out (see his post on this thread) the dividend does not appear to have been 'reset' in any meaningful way, which I think is a pity, but simply, they seem to have taken an estimate of the amount attributable to the spin off new company. They are though arch pragmatists and I have no doubt the spin off was political as much as anything else.

Dod

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141864

Postby monabri » May 28th, 2018, 1:14 pm

TUK020 wrote:The SSE board have very publicly nailed their colours to the mast in terms of progressive dividends.
This is why the board have continued to pay out increasing dividends, even when for several years the earnings and cash flow cannot afford it. For the board to change dividend policy openly would require a number of figures to fall on their swords.

This is why hiving off the retail business and merging it is such a masterstroke political move.

It allows the board to stay in place, but also 'reset' the dividend on the core wholesale and networks business.

It also puts the part of the business most at risk of political interference (any moves to nationalisation would focus first and foremost on voter impact - reducing retail bills) in a separate bucket, with a ready poison pill. Price controls = retail going bust = lights going out = explain that Mr Corbyn.

This would give the board another 5 years on the gravy train at the wholesale and networks part, then they can retire and let someone else sort it out.

Perhaps that is a bit cynical........


That's the same conclusion I came to and I personally share your degree of cynicism (just my view - others might, no doubt, disagree!).

Philips -Davies - age 50, CEO, has been in post just under 5 years. I guess he'd like another 5 years at "compensation" of £2.95m p.a.
Gregor Alexander Financial Director. & Exec Director (54) has been in post 15.6 years (!) - compensation £2m.

Imagine the CMA let the deal go through - SSE will rebase their divi to 80p, is that affordable (Reported earnings per share down 48.7% to 81.3p.) ?
Maybe the retail side (23%) is such a drag on the current business that - when "disposed of" (!) - will the new divi of 80p be affordable and for how long?

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#141877

Postby TUK020 » May 28th, 2018, 2:17 pm

Dod101 wrote:I think TUK020 is more or less correct except as Gengulphus helpfully pointed out (see his post on this thread) the dividend does not appear to have been 'reset' in any meaningful way, which I think is a pity, but simply, they seem to have taken an estimate of the amount attributable to the spin off new company. They are though arch pragmatists and I have no doubt the spin off was political as much as anything else.

Dod


Devil is in the detail; not taken aclose examination, but where will the debt end up?

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#142004

Postby Fluke » May 29th, 2018, 12:33 am

pyad wrote:As for SSE and today's results, I see no reason for a HYPer to sell


But would you regard it as a buy or a hold pyad?

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#142049

Postby pyad » May 29th, 2018, 10:32 am

From the HYP viewpoint, a buy. But as with any new share in this strategy, you don't just add it regardless, you need to consider the structure of your portfolio and its diversification before adding, and also the amount to be added, because you must not overweight the sector which is energy utes in this case. The correct weight is the current average sector value in your portfolio.

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#142052

Postby Arborbridge » May 29th, 2018, 10:36 am

bluedonkey wrote:All interesting comments. If the borrowing has been directed towards capex/investment, then it doesn't appear very successful as FCF has not improved. I appreciate that FCF is cashflow from operations minus capex, but eventually with successful investment you should get a reversal. In others words, poor FCF (<EPS) in some years is at least balanced out by superior FCF (>EPS) in other years.


Correct, but the problem for us is that such expenditure - even if successful - can take many years to benefit the shareholders. Warren Buffett said something of the sort. He doesn't like companies with big capex requirements as he put it: you need a damn big pay off at the end to make it worth the risk. Which makes it more incredible that he bought a railway company!

Arb.

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Re: SSE PLC Results

#142083

Postby bluedonkey » May 29th, 2018, 1:53 pm

Apologies if someone has already posted this earlier in the thread. I thought this from Hargreaves Lansdown rather succinctly sums it up: "The split hasn't changed our fundamental view of SSE. It needs to improve cash flows if it's to shake off nagging concerns over the stability of the dividend."

Quite.


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