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Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

For discussion of the practicalities of setting up and operating income-portfolios which follow the HYP Group Guidelines. READ Guidelines before posting
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Tight HYP discussions only please - OT please discuss in strategies
Gengulphus
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#2918

Postby Gengulphus » November 9th, 2016, 4:56 pm

Lootman wrote:... and in the end I feel sure that most here can learn to live with any reasonable comprise or change that is adopted.


So do I - with the emphasis on "reasonable".

As an analogy: if I were a member of a chess club and someone proposed that it should also be for the playing of other board games as well, was willing to co-operate in working out which ones would fit in and which wouldn't, develop a proposal to put to a membership vote and to accept the result of that vote whichever way it goes, going elsewhere if it was turned down, I would regard that as reasonable.

If they instead marched in and started loudly proclaiming that a broader range of board games was the way of the future and what we wanted, disregarding any other opinions, and additionally chose to do that at a time when the membership unfortunately couldn't be polled, I would regard it as most unreasonable.

Unfortunately, the impression I'm currently getting is closer to the latter than the former...

Gengulphus

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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#2923

Postby LoongGoh » November 9th, 2016, 5:04 pm

Long time lurker here. Please please don't stray from discussing main HYP topic/shares. I support the call not to dilute this particular board with "wider high yielding or HYP-like investments" such as ETF/IT/Guilt/Bond (why oh why??). It will be a nightmare for me to scroll down the long list of topics to pick relevant discussions. Life is busy enough as it is. I greatly value all the inputs and discussions by the stalwarts here. If we start diluting it then where is the line to be drawn? God forbid, I invest in high rent yielding properties but surely you wouldn't want me to start talking about it here would you?

Just my selfish personal opinion. I'd prefer a back to to basics HYP Practical board. Anything else can be discussed in the High Yield - Strategies board.

Back to lurking....

Lootman
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#2925

Postby Lootman » November 9th, 2016, 5:11 pm

Gengulphus wrote: So do I - with the emphasis on "reasonable".

As an analogy: if I were a member of a chess club and someone proposed that it should also be for the playing of other board games as well, was willing to co-operate in working out which ones would fit in and which wouldn't, develop a proposal to put to a membership vote and to accept the result of that vote whichever way it goes, going elsewhere if it was turned down, I would regard that as reasonable.


It might depend on what the games were. If it were bingo, then probably not, because chess requires quiet. But if it were "Go", then that might be OK. I recall that my University chess club also allowed Go. (There was often a poker game going on too but that's another story).

So in this context, unrelated topics (like day trading) would clearly not fit. Dividend-paying collectives of HY shares, like Luniversal's baskets, might.

Gengulphus wrote:If they instead marched in and started loudly proclaiming that a broader range of board games was the way of the future and what we wanted, disregarding any other opinions, and additionally chose to do that at a time when the membership unfortunately couldn't be polled, I would regard it as most unreasonable.

Unfortunately, the impression I'm currently getting is closer to the latter than the former...


I don't think anyone is shouting loudly here. Nor is anyone in a position to decide this against the will of others (except LF). Aren't we just having a discussion about possibilities and preferences?

Wizard
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#2926

Postby Wizard » November 9th, 2016, 5:11 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
Lootman wrote:... and in the end I feel sure that most here can learn to live with any reasonable comprise or change that is adopted.


So do I - with the emphasis on "reasonable".

As an analogy: if I were a member of a chess club and someone proposed that it should also be for the playing of other board games as well, was willing to co-operate in working out which ones would fit in and which wouldn't, develop a proposal to put to a membership vote and to accept the result of that vote whichever way it goes, going elsewhere if it was turned down, I would regard that as reasonable.

If they instead marched in and started loudly proclaiming that a broader range of board games was the way of the future and what we wanted, disregarding any other opinions, and additionally chose to do that at a time when the membership unfortunately couldn't be polled, I would regard it as most unreasonable.

Unfortunately, the impression I'm currently getting is closer to the latter than the former...

Gengulphus


But isn't your starting point for your example a little skewed?

Surely more correctly it would be that you used to be a member of a social club that had a sub-group of chess players in it. The social club was closed down and many of the members including some of the chess playing members decided to set up a club in different premises. On arriving there was some discussion as to whether the members that had moved (and indeed any new members) wanted to replicate the way they had organised themselves in the old club or if things should be organised differently, and if differently then how exactly.

I agree anyone just stating that their preference is the only option is unhelpful, but I think there have been posts tending to this position from both camps.

Terry.

melonfool
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#2928

Postby melonfool » November 9th, 2016, 5:12 pm

LoongGoh wrote: I'd prefer a back to to basics HYP Practical board. Anything else can be discussed in the High Yield - Strategies board.



Or just in an 'investment strategies' type board.

Mel

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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#2985

Postby Breelander » November 9th, 2016, 7:13 pm

Lootman wrote:...I see that risk. Part of it comes down to how easy it is for a reader to ignore topics and posts that are not of interest. That's a fairly basic skill on any internet forum, but people do vary in how they can do that....


No, you missed my point. It's not the readers I was concerned for - it was the writers. Being constrained to think in terms of HYP criteria necessarily focused their attention and encouraged a deeper analysis than was found on many other board. That drew in the lurkers who couldn't care less about HYP but appreciated the insights afforded them here. When discussing individual shares most of what we talked about was applicable to a wider range of strategies, but it was the standards we were measuring them against that encourage such detailed work.

Too loose a remit and we risk trading depth for width, and we all know how that turned of for the editorial items on a site we are familiar with. :(

fisher
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3192

Postby fisher » November 10th, 2016, 10:46 am

Surely it is clear that this is "the HYP Practical board" and that there is also a "High Yield - Strategies" board where other High Yield things that don't relate to a HYP can be freely discussed. So the main reason I can see for posting things on this HYP Practical board that are High Yield related but not relevant for what a lost of us consider to be a HYP is that this board has more active members and posters.

Why don't people who want to talk about High Yield Portfolios that are not a HYP just move to that other board (High Yield - Strategies) and increase the number of posters on that board?

pyad
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3242

Postby pyad » November 10th, 2016, 12:14 pm

fisher wrote:Surely it is clear that this is "the HYP Practical board" and that there is also a "High Yield - Strategies" board where other High Yield things that don't relate to a HYP can be freely discussed. So the main reason I can see for posting things on this HYP Practical board that are High Yield related but not relevant for what a lost of us consider to be a HYP is that this board has more active members and posters.

Why don't people who want to talk about High Yield Portfolios that are not a HYP just move to that other board (High Yield - Strategies) and increase the number of posters on that board?


Quite, and this point has been made repeatedly by me and others. It is a decent compromise that worked well enough on the Fool so should continue here.

As to why they wish to disrupt the HYP board, there are several reasons, one of which as you say is the far greater traffic on the HYP board. But it's more than that as you can deduce from some of the comments.

Puerile playground politics where hardly anyone wants to join our game so for sport we'll come and disrupt yours. Some of them rage impotently at the thought that "HYP" has acquired a specific meaning in addition to its general meaning. Others, riddled with petty jealousy over their own failures in life, not only can't bear the specific use of the term, but also the fact that it works.

Sad eh.

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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3269

Postby heathmount » November 10th, 2016, 1:09 pm

Just for the record and in the absence of any poll functionality, I'm firmly in the "Leave this board as it is and setup others as demand requires" camp.

Stonge
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3279

Postby Stonge » November 10th, 2016, 1:27 pm

This kind of squabbling could be avoided by a proper set of board names, structured properly, and agreement on what 'HYP' means. Does 'HYP' belong exclusively to one camp?

Wizard
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3281

Postby Wizard » November 10th, 2016, 1:35 pm

Stonge wrote:This kind of squabbling could be avoided by a proper set of board names, structured properly, and agreement on what 'HYP' means. Does 'HYP' belong exclusively to one camp?


Part of the issue is that there was an announcement that this board's name was to have HYP taken out of it, that then didn't happen. I may have missed it, but I have not seen any comment as to whether that was an intentional change of mind or a error, or indeed if the original announcement contained an error.

Terry.

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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3285

Postby Wizard » November 10th, 2016, 1:43 pm

pyad wrote:Quite, and this point has been made repeatedly by me and others. It is a decent compromise that worked well enough on the Fool so should continue here.

As to why they wish to disrupt the HYP board, there are several reasons, one of which as you say is the far greater traffic on the HYP board. But it's more than that as you can deduce from some of the comments.

Puerile playground politics where hardly anyone wants to join our game so for sport we'll come and disrupt yours. Some of them rage impotently at the thought that "HYP" has acquired a specific meaning in addition to its general meaning. Others, riddled with petty jealousy over their own failures in life, not only can't bear the specific use of the term, but also the fact that it works.

Sad eh.


In what way did you think a post like this was helpful?

Terry.

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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3307

Postby Lootman » November 10th, 2016, 2:40 pm

pyad wrote:Others, riddled with petty jealousy over their own failures in life, not only can't bear the specific use of the term, but also the fact that it works. Sad eh.


You know, what is really sad is that you resort to such negative speculations and stereotypes, because it detracts from the other valuable things that you can contribute. I would strongly encourage you to adopt a less strident and confrontational posture here, and let go of what could easily be perceived as an unduly proprietary attitude.

All we are doing here is having a discussion about the most appropriate framework for this new home. And it must surely be clear to you that boards are being merged and compacted to make this site easier to manage. There's also a clear policy of trying to depersonalise boards to make them more about the topic and less about any one person. Such a discussion should not offend anybody, nor should anyone seek to censor or suppress it.

Don't worry, you'll get the credit that is due to you for your contributions. But, to be blunt, this place isn't just about you, and there are some people here who were practising many of these ideas before you came along. So please tone down the rhetoric and dismissive characterisations, and be open to a broader array of ideas and input.

toofast2live
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3316

Postby toofast2live » November 10th, 2016, 3:00 pm

I for one don't mind this being the messianic wing of HYP, and other HYish approaches can be posted on the other boards. However a little bit of latitude would be appreciated; for example discussion of a relatively small cap HY share should not be immediately dismissed as "not big enough". We all know from our 2008 experience that size is no "guarantee" of safety. Also the "barbell" approach of matching a definite HYer with a relatively LYer to generate a "HY" portfolio should not be dismissed. From memory PYAD's original selection included a 2%er, admittedly when the FTSE100 was yielding about 2% but in year 2000, no more a distorted way than if i were to suggest the equal weighted yield of the FTSE100 now is about 3%, therefore discussion of c3%ers is ok.

I'm sure everything will settle down when the mods are appointed, and we should all agree on their judgement. In the meantime many thanks to everyone who has made this site a reality so soon.

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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3331

Postby Jon46 » November 10th, 2016, 3:49 pm

Well, pyad's recent contribution on this thread confirms the concerns I have.

To dismiss everybody who does not agree with him as 'failures' or 'jealous' gives you an insight on what we are dealing with.

I still have access to a private investors forum from work(investment related), a nice perk for long retired personnel, now the contributors, by the very nature of their experience at work, represent knowledge of hundreds of thousands of investors portfolios, as well as their own. The site manages perfectly well with one HY investing board. The debate is intense, high quality and civil up to the point when the odd poster would come up with a statement such as pyad's latest, insulting to his fellow colleagues, ex colleagues and indeed investors. Needless to say serious apologies would be required before being allowed to post again.

It work! He says

Well opinions differ on this, it would blatantly not have worked for annuitants with a tight kitty during the financial crisis, for starters, there are better solutions where any largish overall drop of income would be really harmful.

And so it works too for many non devotees HYP portfolios. Most probably better for quite a few, with better balance, less volatility. I for one don't see why they should be told 'post on another board' if they are willing to share their HY experience with us, I for one would like to be able to read it, and maybe contribute too without the need to buy a certain prayer book first.

The sheer intensity of the over reaction one gets to any suggestion of broadening the remit is unhealthy. Closed shops are unhealthy developments and hinder progress.

Jon

PS Even on this new and full of possibilities site, with relatively few HYP posts, there are plenty of examples already of known 'devotees' who clearly don't believe totally in strategic ignorance or 'the time to buy is always now'. Now I can say from personal experience that, in investment terms, it does not make one a failure even if pyad says so.

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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3346

Postby Raptor » November 10th, 2016, 4:22 pm

Wizard wrote:Part of the issue is that there was an announcement that this board's name was to have HYP taken out of it, that then didn't happen. I may have missed it, but I have not seen any comment as to whether that was an intentional change of mind or a error, or indeed if the original announcement contained an error.

Terry.


Have posted to ask Clariman whether this was deliberate or just missed. Also asked whether it would be better to have High Yield Practical and then sub forums. Will update if/when I get a reply.

Raptor.

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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3349

Postby Lootman » November 10th, 2016, 4:30 pm

Raptor wrote:
Wizard wrote:Part of the issue is that there was an announcement that this board's name was to have HYP taken out of it, that then didn't happen. I may have missed it, but I have not seen any comment as to whether that was an intentional change of mind or a error, or indeed if the original announcement contained an error.

Terry.


Have posted to ask Clariman whether this was deliberate or just missed. Also asked whether it would be better to have High Yield Practical and then sub forums. Will update if/when I get a reply.

Raptor.

I don't think I saw Clariman on the old HY boards. I suspect that anyone not well versed in the religious wars here can be forgiven for not realising that the difference between "HY Practical" and "HYP Practical" is something that would cause great ruptures, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

AleisterCrowley
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3353

Postby AleisterCrowley » November 10th, 2016, 4:38 pm

Are you the Judean People's Front or the People's Front of Judea?

melonfool
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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3354

Postby melonfool » November 10th, 2016, 4:39 pm

Lootman wrote:There's also a clear policy of trying to depersonalise boards to make them more about the topic and less about any one person. Such a discussion should not offend anybody, nor should anyone seek to censor or suppress it.



That's not been my reading of what has been proposed. In fact, it has been proposed that boards have their own moderators/owners so quite the opposite to what you say is "a clear policy" - can you direct us to where you have seen that "clear policy" (other than where you suggested it)?

Mind you, all these things are, as far as I can see, so far just discussions, suggestions, proposals anyway - which is why I am a bit :? at your 'clear policy'.

TMF didn't ever really have many boards that were "about one person", I can think of a few - Beerpig's Snug, Pauly Pilots......whatever it is called, KingMcKong's Corner.... HYP has never been "about" pyad though. As has been noted, he barely posts.

I think it's likely that these boards will have posts 'censored' (as you call it; or moderated, as others do) if they are off topic and that is quite right in my view.

I personally think we should just wait for the polls to be available, have a vote (we'll just have to trust people only use one log in and vote only once, won't we? http://my.fool.co.uk/profile/Tendrill/activity.aspx ) - then if the board needs to change focus, be renamed, or another board be put in place to deal with other types of higher yield investments, then we will know and we can do that.

But, until that is done - I can see zero reason the board should not carry on as it always had done.

Mel

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Re: Introduction to the High Yield Portfolio

#3358

Postby Raptor » November 10th, 2016, 4:45 pm

Lootman wrote:I don't think I saw Clariman on the old HY boards. I suspect that anyone not well versed in the religious wars here can be forgiven for not realising that the difference between "HY Practical" and "HYP Practical" is something that would cause great ruptures, wailing and gnashing of teeth.


You are right, but did let him know that "handbags have been lined up" already............

BTW Moderators are in the works but taking time to get the "switches" working................

Raptor.


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