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Marks and Spencer Finals

For discussion of the practicalities of setting up and operating income-portfolios which follow the HYP Group Guidelines. READ Guidelines before posting
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Gengulphus
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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#228242

Postby Gengulphus » June 10th, 2019, 9:18 am

daveh wrote:In comment to Gengulphus who has posted whilst I was writing this, like TJH I only do my income unit calculations once a month. ...

Just to be clear, I do see the point of only updating for dividends once a month - it saves a considerable amount of valuation work. All I said I don't see the point of is doing the update using the previous month's prices when it's very easy to do it using current prices. One is going to obtain each month's set of prices anyway, so there is no significant difference in the work required.

Gengulphus

daveh
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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#228246

Postby daveh » June 10th, 2019, 9:24 am

Gengulphus wrote:
daveh wrote:In comment to Gengulphus who has posted whilst I was writing this, like TJH I only do my income unit calculations once a month. ...

Just to be clear, I do see the point of only updating for dividends once a month - it saves a considerable amount of valuation work. All I said I don't see the point of is doing the update using the previous month's prices when it's very easy to do it using current prices. One is going to obtain each month's set of prices anyway, so there is no significant difference in the work required.

Gengulphus


I see, I'd missed that Terry said he used the previous months price rather than the latest price. The software showed me your post when I tried to post mine, so I thought I'd say what I do and why.

tjh290633
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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#228439

Postby tjh290633 » June 10th, 2019, 5:43 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
daveh wrote:In comment to Gengulphus who has posted whilst I was writing this, like TJH I only do my income unit calculations once a month. ...

Just to be clear, I do see the point of only updating for dividends once a month - it saves a considerable amount of valuation work. All I said I don't see the point of is doing the update using the previous month's prices when it's very easy to do it using current prices. One is going to obtain each month's set of prices anyway, so there is no significant difference in the work required.

Gengulphus

The reason that I use the previous month's unit price is that my spreadsheet gives me a circular calculation if I try to use the current one. I could avoid this by manually entering the current price, but unfortunately that cannot be established without getting the aforesaid circular calculation. No doubt it would be possible by some mathematical gyrations but my method is simple for me to implement. It may be imprecise, but it is near enough for me

TJH

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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#228914

Postby Gengulphus » June 12th, 2019, 12:25 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:
daveh wrote:In comment to Gengulphus who has posted whilst I was writing this, like TJH I only do my income unit calculations once a month. ...

Just to be clear, I do see the point of only updating for dividends once a month - it saves a considerable amount of valuation work. All I said I don't see the point of is doing the update using the previous month's prices when it's very easy to do it using current prices. One is going to obtain each month's set of prices anyway, so there is no significant difference in the work required.

The reason that I use the previous month's unit price is that my spreadsheet gives me a circular calculation if I try to use the current one. I could avoid this by manually entering the current price, but unfortunately that cannot be established without getting the aforesaid circular calculation. No doubt it would be possible by some mathematical gyrations but my method is simple for me to implement. It may be imprecise, but it is near enough for me

Fair enough, as your decision about your spreadsheet - I've done my part by telling you that it's unnecessary to use earlier-than-transaction-date unit values to avoid circular unitisation calculations, and it's entirely up to you to make your own value judgement about whether you want to use the information. But the formula I gave ("Nnew = Nold * V/(V-C), where Nold and Nnew are the old and new numbers of units, V is the current value of the portfolio including the added cash, and C is the added cash") is no more of a "mathematical gyration" than any other formula involved in unitisation calculations, and my concern was also to make certain other readers had been given the information that it's unnecessary. And they too can decide for themselves whether to take that information on board or leave it - and indeed I suspect that quite a few will leave not just that information, but all information about how to do unitisation!

Gengulphus

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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#228947

Postby daveh » June 12th, 2019, 2:33 pm

Gengulphus wrote:Fair enough, as your decision about your spreadsheet - I've done my part by telling you that it's unnecessary to use earlier-than-transaction-date unit values to avoid circular unitisation calculations, and it's entirely up to you to make your own value judgement about whether you want to use the information. But the formula I gave ("Nnew = Nold * V/(V-C), where Nold and Nnew are the old and new numbers of units, V is the current value of the portfolio including the added cash, and C is the added cash") is no more of a "mathematical gyration" than any other formula involved in unitisation calculations, and my concern was also to make certain other readers had been given the information that it's unnecessary. And they too can decide for themselves whether to take that information on board or leave it - and indeed I suspect that quite a few will leave not just that information, but all information about how to do unitisation!

Gengulphus

I've just compared your formula with how I do it by hand for my income units for the calculation I would do at the end of this month (using todays portfolio value as my crystal ball is on the blink).

Your formula gets 166388.59 units and my calculation gets 166378.38 units a discrepancy of 0.006%. I was going to say I would have to think about going back and correcting my previous calculations, but having seen how small the error is I don't think I'll bother (and June is the month that the error will be largest as divis are largest).

However as the formula is easy to set up in my spreadsheet I'll use it from now on, thanks.

Edit: the discrepancy is a bit larger (0.77%) if you look at the number of new units bought rather than the total units)

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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#228984

Postby Gengulphus » June 12th, 2019, 4:19 pm

daveh wrote:Your formula gets 166388.59 units and my calculation gets 166378.38 units a discrepancy of 0.006%. I was going to say I would have to think about going back and correcting my previous calculations, but having seen how small the error is I don't think I'll bother (and June is the month that the error will be largest as divis are largest).

Roughly speaking, the size of the error will actually be determined by the product of the dividends received (as a percentage of the portfolio value) and how far market prices have moved in percentage terms. So it will be largest when the combination of the two happens to hit a 'double whammy' - i.e. if the market happens to move dramatically in your highest-dividends month.

Gengulphus

tjh290633
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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#229059

Postby tjh290633 » June 12th, 2019, 10:28 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
Or as a formula, Nnew = Nold + C / ((V-C)/Nold), which simplifies to Nnew = Nold * V/(V-C), where Nold and Nnew are the old and new numbers of units, V is the current value of the portfolio including the added cash, and C is the added cash.

Gengulphus

I modified that just to use (C-W)/((V-C+W)/Nold) to give me the number of new units. Here W is cash withdrawn (or added, as a negative value).

You are of course, quite correct. I no longer have a circular calculation.

There is a small difference in the total number of units, and it would appear that swings and roundabouts have largely cancelled out the individual differences.

TJH

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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#229122

Postby daveh » June 13th, 2019, 9:02 am

as we were discussing the rights - they go live today and
The Company received valid acceptances in respect of 276,740,713 New Ordinary Shares, representing approximately 85.14 per cent. of the total number of New Ordinary Shares to be issued pursuant to the fully underwritten Rights Issue.



Not sure if that is a good take up, but it won't make a difference to M&S as it was fully underwritten, but might mean the share price is a bit soft until the underwriters have offloaded the shares that weren't taken up.

Details here:
www.investegate.co.uk/article.aspx?id=2 ... 0400C&fe=1

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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#229169

Postby Breelander » June 13th, 2019, 11:16 am

daveh wrote:as we were discussing the rights - they go live today and
The Company received valid acceptances in respect of 276,740,713 New Ordinary Shares, representing approximately 85.14 per cent. of the total number of New Ordinary Shares to be issued pursuant to the fully underwritten Rights Issue.


Further to that, the announcement of the successful rump placing and the price obtained....

Following the announcement on 13 June 2019 ... Morgan Stanley & Co. International plc, BNP PARIBAS, HSBC Bank plc and Shore Capital Stockbrokers Limited, in their capacity as Underwriters, have procured subscribers for all of the 48,269,255 New Ordinary Shares for which valid acceptances were not received, representing approximately 14.86 per cent. of the New Ordinary Shares, at a price of 211 pence per New Ordinary Share....

The net proceeds from the placing of such New Ordinary Shares (after the deduction of the Issue Price of 185 pence per New Ordinary Share and the expenses of procuring subscribers including any applicable brokerage and commissions and amounts in respect of VAT which are not recoverable) will be paid (without interest) to those persons whose rights have lapsed in accordance with the terms of the Rights Issue, pro rata to their lapsed provisional allotments, save that individual amounts of less than 185 pence will not be paid to such persons but will be aggregated and paid to the Company.
https://www.investegate.co.uk/marks---3 ... 58091056C/

So those 14.86% of us who let our rights lapse should expect to receive 26p per lapsed right. (less expenses, but from past experience those are minimal).

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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#232348

Postby Breelander » June 27th, 2019, 3:06 pm

Breelander wrote:...So those 14.86% of us who let our rights lapse should expect to receive 26p per lapsed right. (less expenses, but from past experience those are minimal).


...which was duly paid at exactly 26p per lapsed right. For my certificated holding it was paid by BACS on 26 June to the bank a/c for which I had a dividend mandate. I received a notification by snail-mail today.

For my nominee holding it has yet to be credited by the broker, I expect (like dividends) it will take a day or so to appear.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#232363

Postby Bouleversee » June 27th, 2019, 4:29 pm

So at the moment, those who took up the rights are ahead on paper though those who didn't have some real cash to spend. Since I decided at the last moment to take up the rights on both my holdings, without much conviction, I can only hope the moment lasts a long time. The certificate for one holding was received today.

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Re: Marks and Spencer Finals

#232381

Postby daveh » June 27th, 2019, 7:00 pm

Bouleversee wrote:So at the moment, those who took up the rights are ahead on paper though those who didn't have some real cash to spend. Since I decided at the last moment to take up the rights on both my holdings, without much conviction, I can only hope the moment lasts a long time. The certificate for one holding was received today.


Yes, less than a tenner ahead or ~1p per right I took up on the price I have from earleir today.


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