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HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

Practical discussions about equity High-Yield Portfolios (HYP) for income
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Tight HYP discussions only please - OT please discuss in strategies
tjh290633
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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268296

Postby tjh290633 » November 30th, 2019, 5:29 pm

SKYSHIP wrote:tjh - Q. Do you ever trade? Do you ever sell anything as with KIE, NRR & RMG in your portfolio, all crashing for their own specific reasons, you must have some good winners to counteract such losses and return 90%+ in 7yrs.

I've previously given my criteria for selling.

1. If the yield falls below about half the market yield and stays there, I might sell out completely. Note that I still hold SGRO, CPG and DGE, all below that level. Recent examples INDV and RSA.

2. If the company stops paying dividends with little prospect of a resumption in the foreseeable future, I will sell completely. Examples from the Financial Crisis are DSGI, Trinity Mirror, Premier Foods, Rentokil, ITV and Yule Catto.

3. If the holding value exceeds a certain percentage of my portfolio value (currently 150% of the median holding, but has been 200% of the median. Before that it was 10% of the portfolio value) then I usually sell about 25% of the holding and redistribute it according to my criteria for topping up. Look for topics started by me on "Tinkering time" or similar.

4. If a company is going private, I get out as soon as convenient. Examples are Brit Insurance and Mapeley.

5. If a company is demerging a foreign company, without a UKM quotation for that company, I will sell. Cadbury Schweppes was an example, when Dr Pepper was split off.

Carillion unfortunately caught me out. I expected a rebound which never came. Likewise Cattles.

TJH

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268388

Postby Arborbridge » December 1st, 2019, 4:14 pm

SKYSHIP wrote:
IMO RGL should be a banker in any high yield portfolio.


But it probably does not qualify as a HYP share, so wouldn't come on to our radar.


Arb.

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268405

Postby Dod101 » December 1st, 2019, 5:53 pm

Why would it not qualify as a HYP share with a yield like that? Too small? I will let the opportunity pass because I do not like shares that are being 'hyped' to coin a phrase and in any case am content with PHP and SEGRO in the property sector.

Dod

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268478

Postby Arborbridge » December 2nd, 2019, 10:50 am

Dod101 wrote:Why would it not qualify as a HYP share with a yield like that? Too small? I will let the opportunity pass because I do not like shares that are being 'hyped' to coin a phrase and in any case am content with PHP and SEGRO in the property sector.

Dod


Yes, too small for many people. I have to admit to buying CSN, which is also too small - but I now regard that as a mistake. I just hadn't checked it properly.



Arb.

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268484

Postby Dod101 » December 2nd, 2019, 10:56 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Why would it not qualify as a HYP share with a yield like that? Too small? I will let the opportunity pass because I do not like shares that are being 'hyped' to coin a phrase and in any case am content with PHP and SEGRO in the property sector.

Dod


Yes, too small for many people. I have to admit to buying CSN, which is also too small - but I now regard that as a mistake. I just hadn't checked it properly.


Chesnara? As an income share there is not much wrong with it and I do not think it will be going bust. On the capital front I would need to agree that it is not a stellar performer but just hang in there!

Dod

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268496

Postby Arborbridge » December 2nd, 2019, 11:44 am

Dod101 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Why would it not qualify as a HYP share with a yield like that? Too small? I will let the opportunity pass because I do not like shares that are being 'hyped' to coin a phrase and in any case am content with PHP and SEGRO in the property sector.

Dod


Yes, too small for many people. I have to admit to buying CSN, which is also too small - but I now regard that as a mistake. I just hadn't checked it properly.


Chesnara? As an income share there is not much wrong with it and I do not think it will be going bust. On the capital front I would need to agree that it is not a stellar performer but just hang in there!

Dod


I bought it for my HYP, but as it is so small, it probably didn't qualify as a HYP share - I was a bit slip-shod there. However, I'm not intending to sell it - on the contrary I might add some more.
This month, it ranks fourth in my top-up table, behind (in ranking order) IMB, BT, HSBA.
I note that from my top four, three are amongst your favourites, so they are presumably good topups 8-)

Arb.

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268510

Postby Dod101 » December 2nd, 2019, 12:35 pm

Arb, please not favourites :) I would never use that expression. A recipe for the share to turn round and bite!

Dod

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268523

Postby Arborbridge » December 2nd, 2019, 1:07 pm

Dod101 wrote:Arb, please not favourites :) I would never use that expression. A recipe for the share to turn round and bite!

Dod



You are right, of course. But they are shares you comment on, and usually favourably, to date. 8-) I have confidence that you would flag up if you think otherwise (as you have with SSE, for example) - you are pretty straight forward in that respect.

Arb.

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268542

Postby IanTHughes » December 2nd, 2019, 3:32 pm

Thanks for all the comments, mostly constructive and on-topic, and here is my follow up:

Accumulation Units

Yes, the primary aim of HYP is of course Income, its initial generation and consequent growth, as I did state in the original post albeit not in big letters. However, for those who, like myself, are not currently drawing said income but re-investing it to create more income, it is important to know that one’s chosen investment strategy is working at least as well as other possible strategies. HYP as a strategy was originally designed as a one-shot “buy and live with the consequent income” so it is important in my view to monitor its effectiveness when used as a multiple-shot “buy, re-invest, grow and only later live with the consequent income”.

Although not yet drawing income, my investment aim is to create as high an income upon retirement as possible, which in turn means that if I came to the conclusion that the HYP Strategy was inferior in that regard, I would have to consider abandoning it for whatever I believed was a better alternative. One way of measuring HYP against some other strategies, not all I grant, is to compare the capital that is available at any one time for the purchase of the required income. So, I calculate Accumulation Unit values in order to enable such a comparison.

Comparison of HYP to other Investment strategies

As I previously stated, only a comparison of HYP Dividend Units to the FTSE 100, or any other share-value index, is valid. Accumulation Units must be compared with other “Accumulation” strategies, one of which is the FTSE 100 Total Return index.

Of course, investing in a FTSE 100 fund, or any other index fund, is not the only alternative to an HYP. One could for example invest in an Investment Trust, or a basket of Investment Trusts, whether Income or Value Trusts, thus leaving it up to the “experts” to create one’s future retirement capital and/or income. It therefore follows that the success or otherwise of HYP should be compared to those Investment Trusts as well. This is something I do keep an eye on from time to time and so far can report that nothing has yet Appeared that beats my own efforts. But who knows what the future will hold?

Post Purchase Trading

I came to HYP partly as a result of not being very good at pursuing a Value strategy, particularly when it comes to an effective selling strategy. I have made a couple of unforced sales in order to further my income aims and judging simply from those two “tinkers” gives no clear decision as to whether more unforced selling should be encouraged. I am still not very good at it!

HYP Constituents

With regard to the particular suggestion that Regional REIT Ltd (RGL) “should be a banker in any high yield portfolio” my response is that RGL is too small by Market Capital to have come up in my HYP filter of possible candidates. Investing in large companies is I believe very important for an income strategy like HYP, an importance that has so far been borne out within my own HYP where the occasional forays into the lower echelons of the FTSE350 have not always turned out too well. Marstons Plc (MARS) has been ok, even good, but Talktalk Telecom Group (TALK), N Brown Group (BWNG) oh dear me. I did also go for New River Retail (NRR) which has been good for income, so far at least, but a loser of capital, especially when set against Segro Plc (SGRO), the holding I sold in order to release the funds to buy it!


Anyway, thanks for your interest in my ramblings


Ian

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268551

Postby Lootman » December 2nd, 2019, 4:22 pm

IanTHughes wrote:investing in a FTSE 100 fund, or any other index fund, is not the only alternative to an HYP. One could for example invest in an Investment Trust, or a basket of Investment Trusts, whether Income or Value Trusts, thus leaving it up to the “experts” to create one’s future retirement capital and/or income. It therefore follows that the success or otherwise of HYP should be compared to those Investment Trusts as well. This is something I do keep an eye on from time to time and so far can report that nothing has yet Appeared that beats my own efforts.

In the interests of completeness I did present two fund strategies that beat your own effort, and gave numbers showing that. One was a global tracker and one was a US tracker. The numbers I gave were for income units but the result would be similar with accumulation units, since the performance gap was significant even before FX is taken into account.

I didn't mention investment trusts but, since you did, there are a good number that would have also beaten your returns such as Scottish Mortgage, Lindsell Train and so on, both of which I have held for a decade or more.

No doubt you'd say that those alternatives don't provide enough running income or that you're not interested in foreign securities. Fair enough, but even so your statement that no alternative cited here "beats your efforts" is demonstrably false. You did well if your only benchmark is UK shares. But your returns compared with a global benchmark are fairly routine. In other words your localised share-picking was good, whether by luck or skill, but your global asset allocation, less so.

I'd hire you as a UK fund manager, perhaps. But not give you a wider remit.

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268555

Postby IanTHughes » December 2nd, 2019, 4:39 pm

Lootman wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:investing in a FTSE 100 fund, or any other index fund, is not the only alternative to an HYP. One could for example invest in an Investment Trust, or a basket of Investment Trusts, whether Income or Value Trusts, thus leaving it up to the “experts” to create one’s future retirement capital and/or income. It therefore follows that the success or otherwise of HYP should be compared to those Investment Trusts as well. This is something I do keep an eye on from time to time and so far can report that nothing has yet appeared that beats my own efforts.

In the interests of completeness I did present two fund strategies that beat your own effort, and gave numbers showing that. One was a global tracker and one was a US tracker. The numbers I gave were for income units but the result would be similar with accumulation units.

I didn't mention investment trusts but, since you did, there are a good number that would have also beaten your returns such as Scottish Mortgage, Lindsell Train and so on, both of which I have held for a decade or more.

No doubt you'd say that those alternatives don't provide enough running income or that you're not interested in foreign securities. Fair enough, but even so your statement that no alternative cited here "beats your efforts" is demonstrably false.

Which of course is why I never said that. All I said was that none has appeared and that is true!

Nor have I ever claimed that HYP is the best and only method of achieving what are my investments aims of a high and growing income. All I have said is that, so far, I am content with the returns that I have achieved towards those income aims

Lootman wrote:You did well if your only benchmark is UK shares. But your returns compared with a global benchmark are fairly routine. In other words your localised share-picking was good but your global asset allocation, less so.

So what? I have never claimed that HYP is ideal, ahead of the pack, or even good, with regard to Global Asset Allocation. That is not why I invest in HYP and therefore I have no interest in how HYP scores on that point. If it is important for your particular investment aims you should of course monitor your success in this area, but please do not feel you must mention it to me. There is absolutely no need, I can assure you!


Ian

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268557

Postby monabri » December 2nd, 2019, 4:43 pm


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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268560

Postby Lootman » December 2nd, 2019, 4:46 pm

IanTHughes wrote:
Lootman wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:investing in a FTSE 100 fund, or any other index fund, is not the only alternative to an HYP. One could for example invest in an Investment Trust, or a basket of Investment Trusts, whether Income or Value Trusts, thus leaving it up to the “experts” to create one’s future retirement capital and/or income. It therefore follows that the success or otherwise of HYP should be compared to those Investment Trusts as well. This is something I do keep an eye on from time to time and so far can report that nothing has yet appeared that beats my own efforts.

In the interests of completeness I did present two fund strategies that beat your own effort, and gave numbers showing that. One was a global tracker and one was a US tracker. The numbers I gave were for income units but the result would be similar with accumulation units.

I didn't mention investment trusts but, since you did, there are a good number that would have also beaten your returns such as Scottish Mortgage, Lindsell Train and so on, both of which I have held for a decade or more.

No doubt you'd say that those alternatives don't provide enough running income or that you're not interested in foreign securities. Fair enough, but even so your statement that no alternative cited here "beats your efforts" is demonstrably false.

Which of course is why I never said that. All I said was that none has appeared and that is true!

But my two examples did appear here!

You stated that you "can report that nothing has yet appeared that beats my own efforts" and I reminded you of the two citations of mine that did "appear".

If you instead meant that nothing appeared elsewhere to you in your research, then that may well be true if you looked elsewhere than where I did!

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268565

Postby IanTHughes » December 2nd, 2019, 4:59 pm

Lootman wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:
Lootman wrote:In the interests of completeness I did present two fund strategies that beat your own effort, and gave numbers showing that. One was a global tracker and one was a US tracker. The numbers I gave were for income units but the result would be similar with accumulation units.

I didn't mention investment trusts but, since you did, there are a good number that would have also beaten your returns such as Scottish Mortgage, Lindsell Train and so on, both of which I have held for a decade or more.

No doubt you'd say that those alternatives don't provide enough running income or that you're not interested in foreign securities. Fair enough, but even so your statement that no alternative cited here "beats your efforts" is demonstrably false.

Which of course is why I never said that. All I said was that none has appeared and that is true!

But my two examples did appear here!

You stated that you "can report that nothing has yet appeared that beats my own efforts" and I reminded you of the two citations of mine that did "appear".

If you instead meant that nothing appeared elsewhere to you in your research, then that may well be true if you looked elsewhere than where I did!

No evidence was provided by you so it cannot be said that a better alternative has "appeared" in any practical sense of the word. Also, even if you did produce such evidence, which would have to be net of all charges as the results for my HYP are, it would still be merely historical evidence. I would need some mighty convincing that handing over my hard-earned to these "experts" is the sure way to go.

https://citywire.co.uk/funds-insider/ne ... s/a1291061

https://portfolio-adviser.com/lindsell- ... investors/

But in any case, I will say again, just to be sure that I am properly understood:

IanTHughes wrote:Nor have I ever claimed that HYP is the best and only method of achieving what are my investments aims of a high and growing income. All I have said is that, so far, I am content with the returns that I have achieved towards those income aims




Ian

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268574

Postby Lootman » December 2nd, 2019, 5:18 pm

IanTHughes wrote:
Lootman wrote:But my two examples did appear here!

You stated that you "can report that nothing has yet appeared that beats my own efforts" and I reminded you of the two citations of mine that did "appear".

If you instead meant that nothing appeared elsewhere to you in your research, then that may well be true if you looked elsewhere than where I did!

No evidence was provided by you so it cannot be said that a better alternative has "appeared" in any practical sense of the word. Also, even if you did produce such evidence, which would have to be net of all charges as the results for my HYP are, it would still be merely historical evidence. I would need some mighty convincing that handing over my hard-earned to these "experts" is the sure way to go.

The index returns are public domain and the charges on major market index funds are trivial, all of which you know but are being cute about.

Of course you would need "mighty convincing" because you are highly vested in your own investment decisions. But I doubt there is anyone here who would deny that, at least on the basis of the last decade or so, on a total return basis, a neutral global portfolio beats your HYP.

That said I was not suggesting that you "hand over your hard-earned to these experts". (Although index fund managers are not experts at all - they invest neutrally. It is active investors like you who are claiming a level of expertise that beats the market). You should keep your money where you feel more comfortable even if, as demonstrated, there are other approaches which on a long-term total-return basis have done better.

I would not want you to go beyond your comfort zone. I have no problem with the claims made for HYP except when as here, a HYP'er goes beyond the remit of HYP and suggests that "nothing beats it". Far better to accept that HYP has its drawbacks and risks, but that you just like it because it's warm and comfortable.

I did find it amusing that you dismissed my numbers as only "history" when your cited portfolio is, of course, only historical :)

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268582

Postby IanTHughes » December 2nd, 2019, 5:42 pm

Lootman wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:
Lootman wrote:But my two examples did appear here!

You stated that you "can report that nothing has yet appeared that beats my own efforts" and I reminded you of the two citations of mine that did "appear".

If you instead meant that nothing appeared elsewhere to you in your research, then that may well be true if you looked elsewhere than where I did!

No evidence was provided by you so it cannot be said that a better alternative has "appeared" in any practical sense of the word. Also, even if you did produce such evidence, which would have to be net of all charges as the results for my HYP are, it would still be merely historical evidence. I would need some mighty convincing that handing over my hard-earned to these "experts" is the sure way to go.

The index returns are public domain and the charges on major market index funds are trivial, all of which you know but are being cute about.

Of course you would need "mighty convincing" because you are highly vested in your own investment decisions. But I doubt there is anyone here who would deny that, at least on the basis of the last decade or so, on a total return basis, a neutral global portfolio beats your HYP.

That said I was not suggesting that you "hand over your hard-earned to these experts". (Although index fund managers are not experts at all - they invest neutrally. It is active investors like you who are claiming a level of expertise that beats the market). You should keep your money where you feel more comfortable even if, as demonstrated, there are other approaches which on a long-term total-return basis have done better.

Demonstrated, really? Where exactly has this been demonstrated?

Lootman wrote:I would not want you to go beyond your comfort zone. I have no problem with the claims made for HYP except when as here, a HYP'er goes beyond the remit of HYP and suggests that "nothing beats it". Far better to accept that HYP has its drawbacks and risks, but that you just like it because it's warm and comfortable.

I have never made any such ridiculous claim either about my own HYP or the HYP Strategy in general! I leave that kind of unsubstantiated nonsense peddling to others.

If you want to suggest that a professional investment manager is the way to go, whether active or neutral, you have to look at the whole gamut of offerings from the most successful to the real dogs. I know you would agree that there is no way of knowing who if anyone will be the front-runner in 10 years time. You would surely also agree that there can be no assurance that I would have selected only the best 10 years ago. Of course not, the best that a private individual like myself can do is look at the average results currently being achieved and in that regard I am confident, currently at least, that I can do just as well myself, maybe a bit better.

Lootman wrote:I did find it amusing that you dismissed my numbers as only "history" when your cited portfolio is, of course, only historical :)

What numbers have you provided? I see no numbers! :D


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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268585

Postby Lootman » December 2nd, 2019, 5:53 pm

IanTHughes wrote:If you want to suggest that a professional investment manager is the way to go, whether active or neutral, you have to look at the whole gamut of offerings from the most successful to the real dogs.

That was not my intention. I was merely pointing out that a neutral investment in the US or global markets over that time period significantly bettered your returns.

Picking an active manager who will succeed is no easier than picking individual shares that succeed. But if a particular active approach gives an inferior result to merely buying a passive global market index fund, then that is worth noting, and so I did.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do that. Just providing background information which seems to bother you for some reason.

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268589

Postby IanTHughes » December 2nd, 2019, 6:15 pm

Lootman wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:If you want to suggest that a professional investment manager is the way to go, whether active or neutral, you have to look at the whole gamut of offerings from the most successful to the real dogs.

That was not my intention. I was merely pointing out that a neutral investment in the US or global markets over that time period significantly bettered your returns.

So what?

Sorry to repeat myself but it appears that one person at least is yet to understand:
IanTHughes wrote:Nor have I ever claimed that HYP is the best and only method of achieving what are my investments aims of a high and growing income. All I have said is that, so far, I am content with the returns that I have achieved towards those income aims



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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268592

Postby Lootman » December 2nd, 2019, 6:24 pm

IanTHughes wrote:All I have said is that, so far, I am content with the returns that I have achieved towards those income aims

It's good that you are content with the income. Since you also mentioned capital growth I deemed it helpful for readers to see how your results compared with an index approach.

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Re: HYP Accumulation Units at Highest Value To-Date!

#268597

Postby IanTHughes » December 2nd, 2019, 6:41 pm

Lootman wrote:
IanTHughes wrote:All I have said is that, so far, I am content with the returns that I have achieved towards those income aims

It's good that you are content with the income. Since you also mentioned capital growth I deemed it helpful for readers to see how your results compared with an index approach.

No, you were not comparing my results to "an index approach" rather you have introduced a comparison with two specific indices, only one of which would have beaten my results, from a capital perspective at least:
Lootman wrote:The S&P 500 was around 1,350 in February 2012 and is now around 3,150. An increase of 133%

The MSCI-ACWI global index was around 45 in February 2012 and is now around 78. An increase of 73%.

You singularly failed to provide any reasoning as to why one might have correctly selected either index 7 years ago, when I commenced my HYP, and nor have you bothered to give any reasoning as to why such an investment would be better going forward nor how such an investment would provide for my investment aims. So why mention them?

Only you can know the answer.


Ian


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