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Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

For discussion of the practicalities of setting up and operating income-portfolios which follow the HYP Group Guidelines. READ Guidelines before posting
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Femi
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Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595195

Postby Femi » June 14th, 2023, 4:36 pm

Hi everyone

I've recently (within the last 12 months) retired and in the process of consolidating some Personal pensions into a SIPP wrapper.

The following is what I have determined as an initial kick off portfolio, all are members of the FTSE 100 and all have a Yield greater than the current FTSE 100 yield of 3.5% (FTSE Yield source is Stockopedia as of today).

                                                                                 Value     Div    Fcst 
Share Epic Sector %Total %Total Yield

Vodafone Group VOD Mobile Telecommunications 6.66% 9.32% 10.60%
M and G MNG Financial Services 6.66% 8.53% 9.70%
Taylor Wimpey TW Household Goods & Home Construction 6.66% 7.48% 8.50%
Phoenix Group Holdings (DI) PHNX Life Insurance 6.67% 8.10% 9.20%
Legal and General Group LGEN Life Insurance 6.66% 7.21% 8.20%
Kingfisher KGF General Retailers 6.66% 4.57% 5.20%
National Grid NG Multiutilities. 6.66% 4.75% 5.40%
British American Tobacco BATS Tobacco 6.67% 7.49% 8.50%
Glencore GLEN Mining. 6.67% 7.87% 8.93%
Smith (DS) SMDS General Industrials 6.66% 4.22% 4.80%
Aviva AV Life Insurance 6.67% 6.78% 7.70%
Imperial Brands IMB Tobacco 6.67% 7.13% 8.10%
NatWest Group NWG Banks 6.67% 6.24% 7.09%
HSBC Holdings HSBA Banks 6.67% 3.70% 4.20%
Rio Tinto RIO Mining. 6.68% 6.61% 7.50%

Portfolio Running Yield = 7.57%


Value Div
Sector %Total %Total

Mobile Telecommunications 6.66% 9.32%
Financial Services 6.66% 8.53%
Household Goods & Home Construction 6.66% 7.48%
Life Insurance 20.00% 22.09%
General Retailers 6.66% 4.57%
Multiutilities. 6.66% 4.75%
Tobacco 13.34% 14.62%
Mining. 13.35% 14.48%
General Industrials 6.66% 4.22%
Banks 13.34% 9.94%
Total 100.00% 100.00%

Note: 1...'Value %Total' is the portfolio value of the share as a % of the total portfolio
2...'Div %Total' is the expected dividend of the share based on forecast yield
as a % of the total portfolio expected dividend


I have some duplicated sectors but no more than 2 in each Industry Group.
The initial yield on this is calculated in HYPTUSS as around 7.57% which seems to be good.
Where HYPTUSS was unable to provide yield information I have determined the values from Stockopedia and entered manually.
I intend to reinvest dividends whenever they total more than £1000 based on the output from HYPTUSS

Does this seem like a sensible starting point?

All input / views / comments welcomed and appreciated.

If this is in the wrong place please let me know where I should post it :)

Many thanks
Femi

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595202

Postby idpickering » June 14th, 2023, 5:06 pm

Congratulations on your retirement.

As for your HYP, to be honest I'd be very cautious regarding Vodafone. The debt they carry bothers me, and that to good to be true high yield too.

Other than that, I think you're on the right track.

All the best,

Ian.

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595204

Postby monabri » June 14th, 2023, 5:15 pm

Ditto Ian's VOD comment. Personally I'd look elsewhere rather than VOD but who knows!

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595206

Postby Crazbe7 » June 14th, 2023, 5:26 pm

A punchy yield given that the FTSE 100 is around 3.8% and the FTSE 250 around 3.2%

You seem to have three shares in the Life Assurance sector - Aviva, L&G and Phoenix.

With that you have 40% of your portfolio by value in only three sectors Financials/Banks/Life Assurance which doesn't seem very diverse.

You hold no Shell/BP/Woodside Energy or Tobacco shares which I appreciate may be a personnel choice.

Vod is a brave choice given their level of debt.

Crazbe7

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595211

Postby BullDog » June 14th, 2023, 5:59 pm

Congratulations on retirement.

I would advise a couple of things. Shoot for a slightly lower starting yield and don't underestimate the long term capital erosion that sometimes results from over reaching for yield. Prime candidates for dividend cutting too. Some may argue that capital doesn't matter. That's OK until all the capital has gone, then there's no yield either. I won't say any more, it's been done to death here.

My own personal opinion is that three insurers is one too many. Banks are a toxic, political football and pretty much uninvestable. Vodafone, as already said by others is awful.

All the best for a long and prosperous retirement.

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595213

Postby Alaric » June 14th, 2023, 6:05 pm

BullDog wrote:My own personal opinion is that three insurers is one too many.


M&G is an insurer as well. They tried to sell the UK life insurance and annuities businesses when spun out from Prudential but failed to get regulatory approval.

https://www.mandg.com/pru/adviser/en-gb/products/legacy

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595226

Postby BullDog » June 14th, 2023, 7:41 pm

Alaric wrote:
BullDog wrote:My own personal opinion is that three insurers is one too many.


M&G is an insurer as well. They tried to sell the UK life insurance and annuities businesses when spun out from Prudential but failed to get regulatory approval.

https://www.mandg.com/pru/adviser/en-gb/products/legacy

Fair comment, yes.

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595261

Postby Femi » June 14th, 2023, 11:31 pm

Thanks everyone for your comments and guidance. I've reassessed my potential portfolio based on these and am now considering the following ... all comments / views appreciated

Femi

                                                                                 Value     Div    Fcst 
Share Epic Sector %Total %Total Yield

BP BP Oil & Gas Producers 6.67% 4.12% 4.10%
Shell SHEL Oil & Gas Producers 6.67% 4.69% 4.66%
British American Tobacco BATS Tobacco 6.67% 8.55% 8.50%
Phoenix Group Holdings (DI) PHNX Life Insurance 6.67% 9.25% 9.20%
Glencore GLEN Mining. 6.67% 8.98% 8.93%
Taylor Wimpey TW Household Goods & Home Construction 6.67% 8.55% 8.50%
HSBC Holdings HSBA Banks 6.67% 4.12% 4.10%
Smith (DS) SMDS General Industrials 6.67% 4.83% 4.80%
National Grid NG Multiutilities. 6.67% 5.43% 5.40%
Kingfisher KGF General Retailers 6.67% 5.23% 5.20%
Sainsbury (J) SBRY Food & Drug Retailers 6.67% 4.77% 4.74%
Aviva AV Life Insurance 6.67% 7.74% 7.70%
Imperial Brands IMB Tobacco 6.67% 8.15% 8.10%
Barratt Developments BDEV Household Goods & Home Construction 6.67% 8.25% 8.20%
Rio Tinto RIO Mining. 6.67% 7.34% 7.30%

Portfolio Running Yield = 6.63%


Value Div
Sector %Total %Total

Oil & Gas Producers 13.34% 8.81%
Tobacco 13.34% 16.70%
Life Insurance 13.34% 16.99%
Mining. 13.34% 16.32%
Household Goods & Home Construction 13.34% 16.80%
Banks 6.67% 4.12%
General Industrials 6.67% 4.83%
Multiutilities. 6.67% 5.43%
General Retailers 6.67% 5.23%
Food & Drug Retailers 6.67% 4.77%
Total 100.00% 100.00%

Note: 1...'Value %Total' is the portfolio value of the share as a % of the total portfolio
2...'Div %Total' is the expected dividend of the share based on forecast yield
as a % of the total portfolio expected dividend

idpickering
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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595270

Postby idpickering » June 15th, 2023, 1:53 am

That looks very good although I’m not sure about Kingfisher? You don’t have to have a retailer at all just for the sake of diversification imho.

Ian.

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595281

Postby Itsallaguess » June 15th, 2023, 6:55 am

Femi wrote:
I intend to reinvest dividends whenever they total more than £1000


Just a quick aside, but isn't that amount a little too low for efficient allocation of dividend re-investment?

I only ask because I always try to make sure that my own personal re-investment dealing costs are kept below 1% wherever possible, and many years ago I landed on a sum of around double the amount you've mentioned above, and so I now tend to keep a watchful eye out for any of my share-accounts that accumulate £2000 or above before I look to re-invest it.

Some quick sums based on typical trading costs of £10 and taking into account stamp duty of 0.5% shows the following percentage cost charges at those two levels -

Invested Sum   |      Percentage Trading Costs
£1000 | 1.495%
£2000 | 0.9975%


When looking into this myself many years ago, I also ran the numbers for a £3000 re-investment level, which comes out at a general trading cost of 0.83%, so I personally felt like it was worth holding on for the £2000 level, but from that point onwards I felt like the bulk of the benefit had been gained, with less inclination to hold on until more had accumulated for less of an additional benefit.

In addition to the above, and as my income-portfolio grew over the years, I also felt that I benefited quite a lot from having a slower re-investment drum-beat in terms of portfolio-management as well, with less time having to be spent thinking about it, and more time doing other things, so unless there's a particular benefit in paying 50% more in trading costs than you might have to, then it could be worth re-considering that particular trigger-level...

Of course the above doesn't take into account the potential 'opportunity-cost' of uninvested cash, which might also be a driver in your process, but even then, for me personally, the improved portfolio-management benefit of much fewer trades trumped that consideration as well.

Whilst I'm here, and just in case you weren't aware in terms of the HYPTUSS 'Overview' functionality that you've used to generate your portfolio tables, if you go to the main sheet and click the 'Toggle Sector / Super-Sector' button, then the Overview process will then generate the portfolio table based on that setting, which might have highlighted sooner some of the 'Super-Sector' concerns that have been mentioned earlier in the thread.

The relevant 'Sector' and 'Super-Sector' allocations for each share in the tool is held in the following columns of the 'Company Data Sheet', and by design they are user-configurable if anyone wants to manually allocate more appropriate sector definitions, depending on their particular views -

  • Sector -Company Data Sheet - Column D
  • Super-Sector -Company Data Sheet - Column I

If any of the 'Super-Sector' definitions are missing from the vanilla HYPTUSS download, then looking at similar EPICS on the data-sheet can usually offer up an appropriate one to copy from elsewhere in Column I.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595283

Postby BullDog » June 15th, 2023, 7:08 am

Cost of reinvesting dividends - If the OP uses Interactive Investor, he/she has a trade credit each month that is ideal for reinvesting any smaller amounts. Obviously I have no idea if that's the case, but it's a good feature of the II platform nonetheless.

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595285

Postby Femi » June 15th, 2023, 7:16 am

Sorry - yes I’m using II so have the one trade credit every month to utilise … therefore my cost is stamp duty and the £5.99 trade credit from the account fee of £10 a month.

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595296

Postby Dod101 » June 15th, 2023, 8:52 am

I would hold Legal & General in stead of Aviva. L & G has a much better record although Aviva seems to have a new lease of life under the relatively new CEO.

I would not hold Kingfisher or for that matter Sainsbury. Retailers are such an unknown quantity. And I think one miner is quite enough. They are very volatile.

You could add some stodge in the form of Unilever and a windfarm operator like Greencoat or SSE.

Still much too exposed to high yields for my liking although I am basically an income investor as I live off my dividends.

On the whole you need to give yourself the chance of some capital growth as well as income.

Anyway in the end it is up to you and whatever you do you will not get it all right. A good learning curve.

Dod

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595302

Postby daveh » June 15th, 2023, 9:10 am

And you don't have to stick to 15 shares. I'm up at 45 shares and collectives (9 ITs and ETFs; 2 renewable energy funds; 2 pref shares). Now could be a good time as there is more choice of high income shares at the moment. Sometimes it has been difficult to find 15 suitable shares that yield more than the average.

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595318

Postby Femi » June 15th, 2023, 9:46 am

Great input so far thanks to you all - could I just check what people feel is the minimum initial investment value in any one share? £2,000 per holding? £3,000 per holding? That would help me determine how many different holdings I might choose to have ... I appreciate over time there may be some re-balancing and the candidates for dividend reinvestment can be identified (for further consideration) using HYPTUSS - great tool by the way!

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595329

Postby Dod101 » June 15th, 2023, 10:09 am

Femi wrote:Great input so far thanks to you all - could I just check what people feel is the minimum initial investment value in any one share? £2,000 per holding? £3,000 per holding? That would help me determine how many different holdings I might choose to have ... I appreciate over time there may be some re-balancing and the candidates for dividend reinvestment can be identified (for further consideration) using HYPTUSS - great tool by the way!


I would be inclined to go for not less than £3,000 per holding.

Dod

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595332

Postby daveh » June 15th, 2023, 10:19 am

Femi wrote:Great input so far thanks to you all - could I just check what people feel is the minimum initial investment value in any one share? £2,000 per holding? £3,000 per holding? That would help me determine how many different holdings I might choose to have ... I appreciate over time there may be some re-balancing and the candidates for dividend reinvestment can be identified (for further consideration) using HYPTUSS - great tool by the way!



When I started in ~2000 I was investing £250 a month into a share via HSDL sharebuilder as that had cheap dealing fees for regular investments. Initially I aimed at a minimum of £1000 per share as the final holding size. Now I aim for 10x that per share, though I still have some rump holdings that started at £1000 and are not suitable for topping up. I keep thinking about clearing some out, but don't seem to get round to it. I would aim for a minimum purchase that was under 1% in costs (stamp duty and dealing fee) and try for 10-15 shares at that minimum holding within the first couple of years (if you are investing from your income and don't have a lump sum you can put in straight away).

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595333

Postby kempiejon » June 15th, 2023, 10:21 am

Femi wrote:Great input so far thanks to you all - could I just check what people feel is the minimum initial investment value in any one share? £2,000 per holding? £3,000 per holding? That would help me determine how many different holdings I might choose to have ... I appreciate over time there may be some re-balancing and the candidates for dividend reinvestment can be identified (for further consideration) using HYPTUSS - great tool by the way!



I started my HYP in 200?, Halifaxsharebuilder allowed me to buy using their regular investment for £1.00 I think. I used to buy at about £400 so was quickly able to have a 15 share HYP with comparitive low cost. As this was my first foray into direct share purchased the low holding values and costs were a useful lower risk way to get my head round being a share investor. And here were are, my HYP is self sustaining and will soon be me sustaining.

These days I wouldn't make an investment of less than £1k, though sharebuilder doesn't charge me any more regular investment. My SIPP in HL offer a low cost regular investment of £1.50, their real time buys are £11.95.

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595394

Postby IanTHughes » June 15th, 2023, 1:14 pm

Advice? Go forth and Diversify! In my opinion, your suggested starting portfolio is not sufficiently diversified. If it were my money, the choice of only 10 separate Business Sectors would worry me. I cannot see any specific share that should be ejected but, with only 15 selections, I believe that each should be from a separate Business Sector.

I should also make the following comments:

FTSE100 or FTSE250

Rather than worry about inclusion within a specific Index, you should be looking at the Market Capital. Also, don’t forget that there are a number of companies where, because the London Stock Exchange (LSE) is not their Primary Listing, they will not be part of any LSE Index. For example, Woodside Energy Group (WDS) with a yield of 10.88%, is I believe a solid possibility.

Capital Value

Personally, I start with companies with a Market Capital ranking no lower than 160. Essentially this includes 60 possible candidates from the FTSE250 Index, on top of all 100 from the FTSE100 Index. The range of Market Capital values of those 160 candidates is from a high of £183,692 Million to a low of £1,886 Million – quite a range. As a further aside, the top 160 Shares comprise over 90% of the Market Capital of the FTSE350 as a whole.

Sustainable Dividend

Over to you, and there is no magic wand. You must ensure, as best you can, that the dividend appears sustainable. No magic wand but do check out total Earnings, Profits and Cash Flow. Pay particular attention to the amount of money required to pay the interest on any borrowings.

Do not pay any attention to those that claim a High Yield automatically means a High Risk. What a High Yield does mean is that the “Market” believes that a higher dividend reward is required from the share in question. This could be a result of a belief that growth in Market Capital is unlikely, for whatever reason, meaning the dividend will form the bulk of any return. All possible candidates, whether High of Low Yield, should be fully investigated.

Target Yield

Do not start with a yield target in mind. Rather you should pick a properly diverse collection of shares, with the highest yields available, where you yourself have determined that the dividend is sustainable. Should you end up with more income than you need, you could axe those holdings that you were most unsure about, whatever the yield, but who is to say that the dividend of any replacements would be more secure?

Holding Value

After any purchase you should be able to say that it does not matter what value is attached to your holding, what matters is the dividend that emanates from that holding. Pay no attention to the nonsense spoken about a Capital Value of nil will mean a yield of nil. Such nonsense can be spouted for any investment strategy, whether Income or Value based. Such people do not appear to understand Equity investing, and their advice should be treated with extreme caution.

My Suggested HYP

Here is my selection for an HYP comprising 15 separate Business Sectors.

Industry       | Sector                    | EPIC | Name                     | Rank | Yield  | Size | Value (%)
Consumer Goods | Retailers: General | KGF | Kingfisher | 82 | 5.22% | 1.00 | 6.6667
| Retailers: Supermarkets | SBRY | Sainsbury (J) | 68 | 4.91% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | TSCO | Tesco | 30 | 4.16% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| Tobacco | BATS | British American Tobacco | 10 | 8.53% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | IMB | Imperial Brands | 33 | 8.22% | 0.50 | 3.3333
Financial | Banks | LLOY | Lloyds Banking | 20 | 5.30% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | NWG | NatWest Group | 24 | 5.17% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| Financial: Gambling | IGG | IG Group | 135 | 6.39% | 1.00 | 6.6667
| Fund Manager | MNG | M&G | 91 | 9.72% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | ABDN | Abrdn | 96 | 6.81% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| Insurance: Life | PHNX | Phoenix Holdings | 72 | 9.09% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | LGEN | Legal & General | 36 | 8.09% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| Investment: Management | INVP | Investec | 121 | 6.61% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | HL. | Hargreaves Lansdown | 92 | 4.66% | 0.50 | 3.3333
Property | House/Leisure: Builders | TW. | Taylor Wimpey | 94 | 8.25% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | BDEV | Barratt Developments | 80 | 7.76% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| Real Estate/REIT | BLND | British Land | 109 | 6.52% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | LAND | Land Securities | 79 | 6.29% | 0.50 | 3.3333
Resources | Mining | GLEN | Glencore Xstrata | 9 | 8.04% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | RIO | Rio Tinto | 7 | 7.94% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| Oil and Gas | WDS | Woddside Energy Group | n/a* | 10.88% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | BP. | BP Amoco | 6 | 4.47% | 0.50 | 3.3333
Utilities | Renewable: Infrastructure | TRIG | The Renewables Infra. | 114 | 5.77% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | UKW | Greencoat UK Wind | 107 | 5.43% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| Utilities: Electric | SSE | SSE | 28 | 5.25% | 1.00 | 6.6667
| Utilities: Water | PNN | Pennon | 153 | 5.38% | 0.50 | 3.3333
| | UU. | United Utilities | 58 | 4.31% | 0.50 | 3.3333

* Woodside Energy Group (WDS) has a Market Capital that would give a Rank of 16, if included within the FTSE100 Index.

You will note that there are some Business Sectors where there are two holdings. In this case the size of that Business Sector investment should be split between the two. The value invested into any such “duplicate” share should be half that invested in a share that is the sole candidate from its Business Sector.

Some people have suggested adding Aviva PLV (AV), making three shares within the Life Insurance Business Sector. I have no problem with AV, but if you do go for three Life Insurance shares, the Business Sector investment should be split in three.

Minimum Size for Dividend Investment

Personally, I will only invest an amount whereby the Transaction Fee charged by my broker, is no higher than the amount of Stamp Duty, meaning the total of all charges is no more than 1.00%. My Broker is A J Bell, who offer a monthly Bulk Dealing service for a fee of £1.50. Therefore, my minimum purchase amount is £300.

Initial Investment Amount

Femi wrote:Great input so far thanks to you all - could I just check what people feel is the minimum initial investment value in any one share? £2,000 per holding? £3,000 per holding?

If you believe that the share price will rise after your purchase, you should invest as much as possible straight away. On the other hand, if you believe that the share price will fall after your purchase, you should not invest any amount at all, not until you are convinced that the expected fall in share price has occurred, and further price movement will be upward only.

Hope that helps.

Enjoy!


Ian

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Re: Creating a SIPP HYP - input welcome

#595545

Postby Femi » June 16th, 2023, 4:54 am

IanTHughes wrote:Advice?.

Hope that helps.

Enjoy!

Ian


Ian - thanks so much for this. Lots of thought provoking stuff in there which is immensely valuable for my learning curve.

Best wishes
Femi


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