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dividend reinvestment?
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Tight HYP discussions only please - OT please discuss in strategies
Tight HYP discussions only please - OT please discuss in strategies
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dividend reinvestment?
Hi all, long time lurker on TMF and now here, be gentle.....
Firstly big thanks to those responsible for setting up TLF, an extraordinary act of self-mutilation by TMF but you have worked wonders here in such a short time.
My question: I know dividend reinvestment is vital to long term returns but wondered how people do it? until now I have ticked "automatic reinvestment" on my online broker account so its easy, BUT..... I'm pretty sure I pay a premium price for my new shares. Does anyone else find this? I presume it's due to all the automatic trades going through on the same day causing a small spike? Or are the brokers/market makers taking advantage of my hands off approach (ie fleecing me)?
So should I hold the cash and then reinvest it myself (bigger fees?)? Leave as is and not sweat it? Or sit down and do the maths rather than ask strangers online? Just wondered what others do
Many thanks!
Firstly big thanks to those responsible for setting up TLF, an extraordinary act of self-mutilation by TMF but you have worked wonders here in such a short time.
My question: I know dividend reinvestment is vital to long term returns but wondered how people do it? until now I have ticked "automatic reinvestment" on my online broker account so its easy, BUT..... I'm pretty sure I pay a premium price for my new shares. Does anyone else find this? I presume it's due to all the automatic trades going through on the same day causing a small spike? Or are the brokers/market makers taking advantage of my hands off approach (ie fleecing me)?
So should I hold the cash and then reinvest it myself (bigger fees?)? Leave as is and not sweat it? Or sit down and do the maths rather than ask strangers online? Just wondered what others do
Many thanks!
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
I presume that the reinvestment is into the same share paying the dividend, so the other important factor is whether you are happy just topping up or whether you think it may be better to pool some dividends and diversify into an additional share.
Terry.
Terry.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
In my case all dividends are held as cash which can be withdrawn as income or used to buy new (different company) or additional shares ("top ups"). Of course, dealing charges and 0.5% tax dictate an economic trade value. I think this is the mode in which most people run their accounts. Ill guess that the advice here would be to diversify and buy other shares in other companies rather than "all eggs in one basket" (but this was not the question!!).
I don't think you'll pay a premium to reinvest divis, just the market price on the day. Hopefully you hold your shares in tax free account ...If not, be aware of recent tax changes on dividends.
I don't think you'll pay a premium to reinvest divis, just the market price on the day. Hopefully you hold your shares in tax free account ...If not, be aware of recent tax changes on dividends.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Gilesyb27 wrote:Hi all, long time lurker on TMF and now here, be gentle.....
Firstly big thanks to those responsible for setting up TLF, an extraordinary act of self-mutilation by TMF but you have worked wonders here in such a short time.
My question: I know dividend reinvestment is vital to long term returns but wondered how people do it? until now I have ticked "automatic reinvestment" on my online broker account so its easy, BUT..... I'm pretty sure I pay a premium price for my new shares. Does anyone else find this? I presume it's due to all the automatic trades going through on the same day causing a small spike? Or are the brokers/market makers taking advantage of my hands off approach (ie fleecing me)?
So should I hold the cash and then reinvest it myself (bigger fees?)? Leave as is and not sweat it? Or sit down and do the maths rather than ask strangers online? Just wondered what others do
Many thanks!
A quick look at a couple of brokers suggests that the average broker charges a flat of 2% up to x, where x is their normal charge for making a trade.
2% (not including stamp duty, of course) adds up over time and is possibly the main reason why many people accumulate dividends until the charges are a lower proportion of their re-investment.
RC
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- Lemon Half
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Gilesyb27 wrote: I know dividend reinvestment is vital to long term returns but wondered how people do it?
There is another type which some Brokers support. That's where the Company itself offers shares as a replacement for dividends. That usually has the advantage of being free of stamp duty and Broker commission. In a taxed account, you still have the complication of reporting the value for dividend tax purposes and keeping track of the additional base cost for eventual CGT calculations.
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
monabri wrote:I don't think you'll pay a premium to reinvest divis, just the market price on the day. Hopefully you hold your shares in tax free account ...If not, be aware of recent tax changes on dividends.
I'm reasonably sure it is just the market price on the day, but all too frequently that seems to be a peak compared to the surrounding days and weeks. perhaps its my paranoia but if lots of dividends are being reinvested on one day it makes sense that there would be a peak All held in ISA or SIPP so tax not an issue.
The dealing cost is 2% up to £5 so I guess if dividend is over £250 it wouldn't cost me any extra to wait a few days and do it manually....
I don't tend to buy new shares frequently so while I could pool the dividends for new purchases this could leave the money "out of the market" for a prolonged period........ (try to moderate my urge to tinker, cant control urge to check prices daily though
appreciate the replies
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Hi Gilesyb27
If you keep reinvesting dividends into the same share you end up paying a high price; years ago I used to do this and as many times the dividend would not be enough to buy more than two or three shares at a time - especially those shares now costing £30 - £40 or more like, say, Unilever. Inevitably This kind of residue if even a penny short of the offer price then sits around and accumulates in your account and is not accumulated into the next automatic dividend reinvestment event for your portfolio. So even a good dividend reinvestment deal of £1.50 commission + stamp duty you can end up with amounts marginally less than the cost of a share rattling around waiting for cheap trading days if you are determined to use this up ASAP.
These days I hold my dividends as cash until enough has accumulated for a meaningful top-up. Then the priority is notionally the HYPTUS top-up order (or not - assuming I have reasons for not topping up the current top of the list and so on down the order rankings).
Well that's what I do, midgesgalore
If you keep reinvesting dividends into the same share you end up paying a high price; years ago I used to do this and as many times the dividend would not be enough to buy more than two or three shares at a time - especially those shares now costing £30 - £40 or more like, say, Unilever. Inevitably This kind of residue if even a penny short of the offer price then sits around and accumulates in your account and is not accumulated into the next automatic dividend reinvestment event for your portfolio. So even a good dividend reinvestment deal of £1.50 commission + stamp duty you can end up with amounts marginally less than the cost of a share rattling around waiting for cheap trading days if you are determined to use this up ASAP.
These days I hold my dividends as cash until enough has accumulated for a meaningful top-up. Then the priority is notionally the HYPTUS top-up order (or not - assuming I have reasons for not topping up the current top of the list and so on down the order rankings).
Well that's what I do, midgesgalore
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Gilesyb27 wrote:My question: I know dividend reinvestment is vital to long term returns but wondered how people do it?
I just let the cash accumulate within my broker account until I've got enough for a purchase, then select what I reckon is the best share for the dividends to be reinvested in (taking yield, dividend safety and the diversification of my HYP into account) and purchase that share. Note that while dividend reinvestment is important, it's only the fact that dividends are reinvested that's important. In particular, there is nothing magical about reinvesting them in the share that produced them - indeed, if the share that produced them has become a poor income investment choice, it's important that they're not reinvested in it, but in something that is now a good income investment choice. (Of course, one cannot know which income investment choices are good and which are poor - one just has to come to the best judgement one can on the matter and act accordingly.)
And by the way, when I say "the cash", I mean all cash that is going into purchasing shares for the HYP, not just dividends. Dividends, corporate action proceeds, regular savings, lump sums (e.g. from inheritances) - they're all grist for the mill... In particular, for someone who is just starting on building their HYP, the stream of dividends will just be a tiny trickle that on its own would take years to build up to enough for a cost-efficient purchase. But it probably isn't on its own, as someone in that position ought to be making regular savings as well. The regular savings ought to build up to a sum that can be invested cost-efficiently reasonably quickly - say within a few months - and the dividends speed that up a bit, so they should only hang around uninvested for a few months, not years.
Of course, things don't always go according to plan, and it's possible that someone might set out to build a HYP using regular savings and dividend reinvestment, then in the very early years find themselves unable to put in the regular savings and so building it with dividend reinvestment alone. In such circumstances, cash might accumulate very slowly and only get up to a cost-effective sum for a purchase every few years. In those circumstances, using automatic reinvestment in the shares that produced the dividends and accepting the fact that they might not be the best shares might be less bad than leaving the cash sitting around uninvested for a long period.
But that's a comparatively rare situation - I would expect most HYP builders to have a reasonably rapid stream of cash to make purchases with arriving from regular savings, dividends, or both. Even some HYPers in the 'income-drawing' phase will have such a stream of dividends if they've got a good safety margin of the income their HYP is producing over the income they need to draw, have adequate cash reserves for emergencies and to see them through any likely period of low dividend income, and don't have anything else they want to do with the surplus income while dividend income remains high.
Gengulphus
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
I save up my dividends until I have at least £1k, then buy something with it on a regular investment day.
My portfolio is still small so keeping fees low is important.
Also, I don't necessarily want to buy the same share with its own dividends. I might roll up my Shell and Vod dividends together into something totally different (maybe even an ETF...shhh...).
I am happily now at the stage of buying 3 new shares (or top ups) a year just on dividends coming in, and actually maybe four this coming year!
Mel
My portfolio is still small so keeping fees low is important.
Also, I don't necessarily want to buy the same share with its own dividends. I might roll up my Shell and Vod dividends together into something totally different (maybe even an ETF...shhh...).
I am happily now at the stage of buying 3 new shares (or top ups) a year just on dividends coming in, and actually maybe four this coming year!
Mel
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Gilesyb27 wrote:I don't tend to buy new shares frequently so while I could pool the dividends for new purchases this could leave the money "out of the market" for a prolonged period........
The solution to that is simple: if you've got enough cash for a cost-effective purchase, and you don't see a new share you like enough to add it to your HYP, pick one of your HYP's existing shares to top up...
Keep an eye of the existing shares' and sectors' weightings when selecting top-ups - in particular, when a share is topped up, its weighting will generally increase, making it less favoured for a future top-up. But equally, don't feel that you should top everything up once before you'll top anything up a second time - you'll almost certainly have a few shares that no longer look like good HYP purchases and shouldn't be topped up at all. Essentially, it's a matter of keeping diversification reasonably good without making poor purchases (*), and over a long period will generally end up distributing top-ups reasonably equally among the deserving candidates.
(*) Meaning purchases that look poor at the point of purchase - purchases that look poor with hindsight later are much more difficult to avoid, and the only way I know of doing it fully is to be lucky!
Gengulphus
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- Lemon Half
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Gilesyb27 wrote:
until now I have ticked "automatic reinvestment" on my on-line broker account so its easy
Ignoring for now any cost-element of dividend-reinvestment, I think the two major opportunities you're likely to miss by doing this are -
Investing into the most appropriate future income-generator for your portfolio in terms of yield
Helping to self-manage portfolio balancing, in terms of income reliance / capital reliance / company or sector weightings etc.
By allowing dividends to accrue to a suitable level, perhaps the £1500 or £2000 amount where a trade-cost of £20 means a 1.3% to 1% cost of the new share-purchase, you'll be able to manage your HYP portfolio at intervals that will become meaningful over a lifetime of investment.
I also think that paying somewhere around the 1% mark for accrued-dividends purchase like this will make them very competitive when compared to your current auto-re-investment process, so do make sure you're comparing apples to apples here and not just looking at what might be a relatively low 'actual trade-cost' of a couple of quid with your current arrangement and thinking it's good value for money; do compare it in percentage terms similar to the above.
Cheers,
Itsallaguess
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Gengulphus wrote:Of course, things don't always go according to plan, and it's possible that someone might set out to build a HYP using regular savings and dividend reinvestment, then in the very early years find themselves unable to put in the regular savings and so building it with dividend reinvestment alone. In such circumstances, cash might accumulate very slowly and only get up to a cost-effective sum for a purchase every few years. In those circumstances, using automatic reinvestment in the shares that produced the dividends and accepting the fact that they might not be the best shares might be less bad than leaving the cash sitting around uninvested for a long period.
But that's a comparatively rare situation -
Gengulphus
Happened to me, started out 14 years ago with a 15 share portfolio and retired, but with a good company pension (ok I was only 49 at the time, a few months wait for the pension) and lots of share options with various IT companies that would mature over the next few years. So idea was to build the portfolio and then the "taxman" came knocking for a failed business venture so all my plans went to pieces to pay them their "pound of flesh", so switched the whole lot to DRIP. Switched it off 5 years ago to take control of "structure" of the HYP (should have done it before but inertia and laziness got in the way).
It helped that iWeb re-investment was quite cheap way of doing ti.
Raptor.
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Thanks all, lots to think about.
I have very sporadic earnings so am a lump sum investor most of the time, I guess I thought I was doing the "right" thing by reinvesting the dividends but I take the point that it doesn't matter what they are reinvested into.
I have very sporadic earnings so am a lump sum investor most of the time, I guess I thought I was doing the "right" thing by reinvesting the dividends but I take the point that it doesn't matter what they are reinvested into.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Gilesyb27 wrote:Thanks all, lots to think about.
I have very sporadic earnings so am a lump sum investor most of the time, I guess I thought I was doing the "right" thing by reinvesting the dividends but I take the point that it doesn't matter what they are reinvested into.
Eh?
Was that the point?
Mel
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- Lemon Half
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Gilesyb27 wrote:Thanks all, lots to think about.
I have very sporadic earnings so am a lump sum investor most of the time, I guess I thought I was doing the "right" thing by reinvesting the dividends but I take the point that it doesn't matter what they are reinvested into.
It does matter. What is important is to reinvest them in a way which maximises your income growth. This is the objective of the top-up system available from this site.
However, in the early stages it is better to add them to the sums that you spend on buying new holdings. Later it is a case of either waiting for them to accumulate to an economic level or to take advantage of a cheap dealing day.
TJH
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Terry, do you have a link to an explanation of your much-loved top-up ranking scheme, preferably on TLF?tjh290633 wrote:This is the objective of the top-up system available from this site.
This would be a good starting place for many that are considering a systematic approach to top-ups for the first time.
Regards,
Chris
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
I think Gilesyb meant that the lesson was that dividends do not need to be re-invested in the company that paid them out.
StepOne
StepOne
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- Lemon Half
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
csearle wrote:Terry, do you have a link to an explanation of your much-loved top-up ranking scheme, preferably on TLF?
This would be a good starting place for many that are considering a systematic approach to top-ups for the first time.
Regards,
Chris
See https://web.archive.org/web/20170123022 ... 62371.aspx for a description.
TJH
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
Gilesyb27 wrote:Thanks all, lots to think about.
I have very sporadic earnings so am a lump sum investor most of the time, I guess I thought I was doing the "right" thing by reinvesting the dividends AUTOMATICALLY but I take the point that it doesn't matter what PARTICULAR INVESTMENT they are reinvested into. ie not necessarily the share that created the dividend in the first place
fixed it. Thanks Stepone for interpreting correctly
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: dividend reinvestment?
tjh290633 wrote:csearle wrote:Terry, do you have a link to an explanation of your much-loved top-up ranking scheme, preferably on TLF?
This would be a good starting place for many that are considering a systematic approach to top-ups for the first time.
Regards,
Chris
See https://web.archive.org/web/20170123022 ... 62371.aspx for a description.
TJH
Interesting, Terry. I have already, subject to share price changes, made some decisions about which shares to top-up using next-year's ISA allowance, but I thought that I would run my holdings through your system just to see if it threw up any new ideas.
Once one rules, rightly or wrongly, certain shares on various grounds, the 4 I was already thinking of are left in the top dozen - with the addition of Centrica, which I hadn't been considering. Back to the drawing board! No rush, fortunately.
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