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Greene King trading update

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Hypster
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Re: Greene King trading update

#80034

Postby Hypster » September 8th, 2017, 9:33 pm

idpickering wrote:Disappointing though it is, with the SP being down 12.5% as I type, I'm not going to allow any knee-jerk reactions get the better of me. I intend to rely on the fact that my HYP is well diversified, do nothing with my HYP today, and as early as it is, I'm going to sit in the garden, drinking a shandy. :D


A man after my own heart, Ian, though I spent the day at the coal face. My shandy will come tomorrow! My timing for a top up seems poor in retrospect, I could have got them at a discount but as long as the dividends keep coming...

All - my vouchers came this week.

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80066

Postby Taverhamboy » September 9th, 2017, 9:30 am

My wife and I both hold Greene King shares and our vouchers came in separate posts last week. Visited Bury St Edmunds yesterday, the home of GK and frequented 1 of their many pubs in the town. In view of the share price drop we enjoyed a discounted lunch and drink and thereby offset some of our paper loss. I must say the car park was full and business inside was brisk so not to worried about our share holding.

taverham boy

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80097

Postby jackdaww » September 9th, 2017, 12:20 pm

OLTB wrote:Come on chaps - let's Doris-up (HYP equivalent of man-up) and carry on carrying on. In ten years time no one will remember 8th Sept 2017 and Greene King will still be selling beer and reasonably priced Sunday carverys.

Cheers, OLTB.


================================

in ten years time...................

will HYP still be around?

or faded away , like many of us ..

where are the newbie up and coming hypers?

:|

OLTB
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Re: Greene King trading update

#80098

Postby OLTB » September 9th, 2017, 12:28 pm

jackdaww wrote:

where are the newbie up and coming hypers?



Well, I count myself as a newbie as only been at it for a year :)

I wasn't here (or rather, The Other Place) during the financial crisis of 2008 - 2010 (ish) but perhaps similar questions were asked at that time as well, and here we are, ten years later...

Cheers, OLTB.

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80099

Postby monabri » September 9th, 2017, 12:32 pm

Hopefully in 10 years I'll still be around....even if some of my HYP choices aren't!! (56 y.o. so maybe I'm classed as a hyp " junior")

:lol:


Edit: I said "SOME", Mr Market!


.p.s. my vouchers arrived this morning ( broker SVS sent them!)

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80101

Postby Gengulphus » September 9th, 2017, 12:37 pm

Wizard wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:..I don't know whether they automatically send the nominee company a book of vouchers, but if they do, it will just be one book among all of the broker's clients who hold Greene King shares...

By all accounts, Greene King are willing to send books of vouchers to shareholders who hold their shares in nominee accounts - but they're not proactive about it (i.e. they don't ask brokers for a list of their clients who hold 100+ shares), so the shareholder has to ask the broker to tell the company. And brokers vary about how co-operative they are about such requests from their clients, varying from very co-operative to completely refusing to do it... And the fact that they do it one year doesn't automatically mean they'll do it every year thereafter, so even with a co-operative broker you might have to ask them each year...

Well, as coincidence would have it I can say with some certainty that what you say is not correct in the case of HL, my vouchers arrived today. I never asked HL for them ...

So HL are at the very co-operative end of the scale I stated - they even co-operate with requests you haven't made! ;-)

OK, I failed to state the full extent of how brokers might vary - they can be proactive about informing the company, which is a bit beyond the "very co-operative" end of the scale I gave. But I hardly think that makes what I said "not correct" - more just "not quite complete".

Gengulphus

OLTB
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Re: Greene King trading update

#80102

Postby OLTB » September 9th, 2017, 12:37 pm

monabri wrote:Hopefully in 10 years I'll still be around....even if some of my HYP choices aren't!! (56 y.o. so maybe I'm classed as a hyp " junior")

:lol:


Edit: I said "SOME", Mr Market!


Well, in that case, at 48 I'm a HYP toddler (fewer tantrums though)...

Cheers, OLTB.

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80132

Postby Wizard » September 9th, 2017, 4:03 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
Wizard wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:..I don't know whether they automatically send the nominee company a book of vouchers, but if they do, it will just be one book among all of the broker's clients who hold Greene King shares...

By all accounts, Greene King are willing to send books of vouchers to shareholders who hold their shares in nominee accounts - but they're not proactive about it (i.e. they don't ask brokers for a list of their clients who hold 100+ shares), so the shareholder has to ask the broker to tell the company. And brokers vary about how co-operative they are about such requests from their clients, varying from very co-operative to completely refusing to do it... And the fact that they do it one year doesn't automatically mean they'll do it every year thereafter, so even with a co-operative broker you might have to ask them each year...

Well, as coincidence would have it I can say with some certainty that what you say is not correct in the case of HL, my vouchers arrived today. I never asked HL for them ...

So HL are at the very co-operative end of the scale I stated - they even co-operate with requests you haven't made! ;-)

OK, I failed to state the full extent of how brokers might vary - they can be proactive about informing the company, which is a bit beyond the "very co-operative" end of the scale I gave. But I hardly think that makes what I said "not correct" - more just "not quite complete".

Gengulphus

Which is exactly why I very specifically said that you were "not correct in the case of HL", which is the case, even if HL are at the very far end of the spectrum of customer service. You seem to have taken my post to be a more general statement that you were not correct, as while you quoted the full comment in the quote box you chose to only refer to the two words "not correct" when you quoted it in your own text. What was incomplete was your selction of just those two words which significantly broadens and therefore distorts what I said.

Anyway, whether you were incorrect or incomplete is far less important than the fact I have my vouchers :lol:

Terry.

Edit: I just reread this and it is definitely not incompleteness. What you said was that a nominee broker gets one book of vouchers and then if they notify Greene King of someone who holds the shares then Greene King will send vouchers to the shareholder. My vouchers were sent to me by HL not by Greene King. So the process for shareholders using HL is not as per the process you described.

Raptor
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Re: Greene King trading update

#80135

Postby Raptor » September 9th, 2017, 4:18 pm

Moderator Message:
Cannot see where we are going with vouchers etc. HYP Practical please. Can we discuss the subject of trading result please. Raptor.

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80138

Postby monabri » September 9th, 2017, 4:31 pm

After Friday, is anyone considering a swift half top up in GNK?

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80142

Postby Gengulphus » September 9th, 2017, 5:11 pm

Raptor wrote:
Moderator Message:
Cannot see where we are going with vouchers etc. HYP Practical please. Can we discuss the subject of trading result please. Raptor.

Getting shareholder perks is a practical matter for some HYP shares, including Greene King. Generally a fairly minor one, but a practical matter nevertheless, and one aspect of that is that without broker assistance, the company only knows about registered shareholdings and so can only send the perks to the registered shareholders - which in the case of nominee shareholdings means the broker's nominee company, not the HYPer.

I do feel that I should restore some context that I've now noticed has been lost in the quotes: what I originally said in viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7301&p=79921#p79921 was about the process if the company only has the use of its own knowledge - i.e. if it doesn't get broker assistance. It shouldn't be read as being about the process in other circumstances.

Gengulphus

OLTB
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Re: Greene King trading update

#80147

Postby OLTB » September 9th, 2017, 5:27 pm

monabri wrote:After Friday, is anyone considering a swift half top up in GNK?


I think Arb is and, if I had some cash (which I will do at the end of September when various dividends drop in) I would strongly consider it. The trading update release didn't say GNK were stopping/reducing dividends and, as HYPers isn't that all we're concerned with?... :?

As Basil would say, 'don't mention the capital, I mentioned it once but think I got away with it '.

Cheers, OLTB.

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80153

Postby DandyLion » September 9th, 2017, 5:49 pm

I have just noticed that Marstons' CEO bought £50,000 worth of Marstons' shares yesterday for 105p so perhaps somebody knows what's going on.

There is a trading update on 10th October and the final results will be announced on 30th November so all will be revealed then.

Nora

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80162

Postby Gengulphus » September 9th, 2017, 7:14 pm

monabri wrote:After Friday, is anyone considering a swift half top up in GNK?

Considering it, yes. As a company, it's averagish-weight in my 40ish-share HYP - moved from above average to a bit below yesterday, but not enough below for me to count it as significantly underweight. As a sector, it is underweight, basically because it's the only company I hold in the sector - Marston's has always struck me as a less solid performer and has never had a big enough yield advantage to compensate for that on the occasions that I've been buying, and Diageo has had too low a yield on those occasions (which doesn't by any means imply always in the nearly 15 years I've been running my HYP, by the way - I'm sure there were good opportunities that I missed...).

Its yield is high and well covered (over twice on a historical basis) by adjusted earnings, not so well (fractionally under 1.5 times) by basic earnings. Checking the annual report, most (about 70%) of the adjustments are net impairments to property assets - which basically means pubs whose trading performance doesn't justify their book values ("net" because in some cases, previous impairments have been reversed because the pub's trading performance has recovered). That does represent a danger to basic earnings if trading performance drops more systematically, as some posts in this thread have suggested might be happening to a serious extent (the trading statement is IMHO nothing more than an indication that it might be starting to happen. But the adjustments are not cash losses and so don't directly affect the company's ability to pay dividends - though there might well be indirect effects via its debt - see below.

As moorfield posted earlier in the thread, dividend cover by cashflow looks to be about twice, in line with dividend cover by adjusted earnings (which fits in with the non-cash nature of at least the main adjustments, as I've described above).

I'm not very concerned about the debt as such. Net debt in the annual report is £2,074.5m, which is 107% gearing on NAV (more on NTAV). The debt multiple (how many years worth of adjusted earnings it is) comes in at slightly under 10 times and interest cover at about 3 times on an adjusted basis. Those would be uncomfortably high debt figures for many companies, but the debt is backed up by and secured against £3,455.5m of property assets, and that does make what would otherwise be high debt figures a lot more acceptable - just as individuals can accept much higher levels of mortgage debt secured against their house than of unsecured consumer debt.

Obviously that could be changed by falls in property values. They'd have to be quite big ones to put the company in serious danger, but there are covenants on the secured debt and if they get close to being breached, the company could be forced to use cash to pay down the debt rather than pay dividends. Unfortunately, while the annual report says that there are covenants, it doesn't give any detail I can discern that would allow me to form an opinion about whether the company's current financial position is close to breaching them. I would however definitely expect drops in property values and in adjusted earnings to bring it closer to breaching them. So I can see a risk to the dividend there, but find it hard to assess that risk properly.

So while I'm considering a "swift half top up", as regards any definite decision, no, not yet... Needs sleeping on, especially the question of whether the management are telling it as they genuinely see it or putting a brave face on things with the final sentence of the trading statement:

In the longer term, utilising the benefits of the Spirit acquisition, our brand conversion and cost saving programmes, our robust balance sheet and our strong cash generation will be important levers to help deliver competitive advantage, growth and attractive and sustainable dividends for our shareholders.

Gengulphus

idpickering
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Re: Greene King trading update

#80181

Postby idpickering » September 10th, 2017, 5:40 am

OLTB wrote:
monabri wrote:After Friday, is anyone considering a swift half top up in GNK?


I think Arb is and, if I had some cash (which I will do at the end of September when various dividends drop in) I would strongly consider it. The trading update release didn't say GNK were stopping/reducing dividends and, as HYPers isn't that all we're concerned with?... :?

As Basil would say, 'don't mention the capital, I mentioned it once but think I got away with it '.

Cheers, OLTB.


I might top up, but I will wait until the next update on 10 Oct 17, before I make my mind up either way. I get the "the time to buy is now" aspect of the HYP sport, and I may miss out on the current SP fall, but better to wait than grasp a knife in that might be in freefall IMHO.

Ian.

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80183

Postby OLTB » September 10th, 2017, 8:28 am

idpickering wrote:
I might top up, but I will wait until the next update on 10 Oct 17, before I make my mind up either way. I get the "the time to buy is now" aspect of the HYP sport, and I may miss out on the current SP fall, but better to wait than grasp a knife in that might be in freefall IMHO.

Ian.


Fair point Ian - in retrospect I was glad that I held off topping up on Carillon just before their last update and glad I did!

Cheers, OLTB.

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80196

Postby Wizard » September 10th, 2017, 10:19 am

Gengulphus wrote:...I'm not very concerned about the debt as such. Net debt in the annual report is £2,074.5m, which is 107% gearing on NAV (more on NTAV). The debt multiple (how many years worth of adjusted earnings it is) comes in at slightly under 10 times and interest cover at about 3 times on an adjusted basis. Those would be uncomfortably high debt figures for many companies, but the debt is backed up by and secured against £3,455.5m of property assets, and that does make what would otherwise be high debt figures a lot more acceptable - just as individuals can accept much higher levels of mortgage debt secured against their house than of unsecured consumer debt.

Obviously that could be changed by falls in property values. They'd have to be quite big ones to put the company in serious danger, but there are covenants on the secured debt and if they get close to being breached, the company could be forced to use cash to pay down the debt rather than pay dividends. Unfortunately, while the annual report says that there are covenants, it doesn't give any detail I can discern that would allow me to form an opinion about whether the company's current financial position is close to breaching them. I would however definitely expect drops in property values and in adjusted earnings to bring it closer to breaching them. So I can see a risk to the dividend there, but find it hard to assess that risk properly....

Some helpful numbers Gengulphus, thankyou.

It seems to me that the level of debt and the interest cover present two different risks. The fact that GNK has property assets in excess of its debt does indeed give comfort with regard to the ultimate risk of the company failing, but does this asset backing do anything to help address the fairly low interest cover quoted above as 3 times? The level of interest cover surely presents a less dramatic risk than failure, but none the less an important one to an HYPer, i.e. the risk that dividends may need to be cut or suspended altogether to allow interest to continue to be paid if profits start to tumble. So whilst I hold, unless anyone can point out some comfort regarding the interest cover with my now more conservative approach I will not top up GNK at this point.

Terry.

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80314

Postby monabri » September 10th, 2017, 10:48 pm

June 28th 2017....
Page down to the results posted by Ian.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6020&hilit=Greene

I don't remember the SP increasing by 16% when they announced L for L sales up 1.5% !

Fickle.

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Re: Greene King trading update

#80516

Postby Clitheroekid » September 11th, 2017, 9:58 pm

I've been thinking about buying GNK for a while mainly on yield grounds, hence my interest in this thread. I was very tempted to jump in when they fell substantially after the recent announcement, but although it used to be the case that this could be a good time to buy on the basis that the market usually over-reacts I've noticed that in several shares I've been watching (CLLN being the worst example) the drop is not followed by the hoped for bounce, but simply by further drops.

This made me cautious about dipping my toe in the water (or beer!) with GNK, and the fact that they're down another 3% today when the market generally was quite buoyant has made me even more wary. Whilst it does look to me as though the drop has been overdone logic is not always the best guide as to when to buy.

I've started checking the short interest routinely now before making a purchase decision, and I noticed that although it's not massive, at just over 4%, it's doubled in just a few weeks, and the trend seems to be upwards - https://shorttracker.co.uk/company/GB00B0HZP136/

So although I'm watching carefully I feel it may have further to fall, and I'm therefore biding my time.

monabri
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Re: Greene King trading update

#80517

Postby monabri » September 11th, 2017, 10:06 pm

I'm wary of shorting levels but it is interesting to look at the shareprice during the time when the GNK shorting level was increasing to well over 12% in early to mid 2015... .... ...

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exch ... ml?lang=en



ps the shorting level doubled over 3 months from 2.01% on June 9th 2017 to 4.09% today.

However, just prior, It was 3.9% on mar 24th 2017. That's what the short tracker graph indicates.

Note - when the short levels were 12%, the share price was in the 800+ range. So, what we need is a massive increase in shorting. ;)


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