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Hydrogen matters

richfool
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Hydrogen matters

#322919

Postby richfool » July 1st, 2020, 10:26 am

Spotted this article on BBC website re hydrogen powered vehicles. I don't know much about such things myself, though it occurs to me that one wouldn't then be hostage to recharging points necessary for "all electric" vehicles:
In his speech on the planned economic recovery, the prime minister said hydrogen technology is an area where the UK leads the world. He hopes it’ll create clean jobs in the future. But is the hydrogen revolution hope or hype?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-53238512

ReallyVeryFoolish
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#322922

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » July 1st, 2020, 10:40 am

An interesting question - There are some very large elephants in this room - Firstly all (>99% perhaps) commercial hydrogen is made from reforming methane (natural gas). A very small amount is made from coal. An even smaller amount is made from electrolysis of water. And a smaller again portion made by electrolysis of water powered by renewable electricity. So - Present use of hydrogen to combust or to use in fuel cells simply shifts emissions, it does not reduce them.

Further, I have extensive experience of industrial hydrogen. It is very difficult to contain/prevent leaks. Combined with it's huge flammable range in oxygen/air it presents significant fire safety challenges. To be stored in any great quantity, it has be kept a high pressure in order to reduce volumes. Typically >200 bar (3000psi) or much higher. This means it is a hazard in itself and the containment vessel itself is heavy in order to be strong enough for the pressure. Although I have worked on hydrogen liquefaction, it is not a widely used storage technique due to safety issues. Not viable for widespread general use. Last but not least, I have seen hydrogen fires lit purely by sunlight playing on a small leak, it's very, very easy to ignite and the resulting flame is hard to see.

But apart from that, yeah, it's a great idea.

RVF

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#322948

Postby Urbandreamer » July 1st, 2020, 12:14 pm

I'd like to add a few comments.

There are many more types of vehicle than car. Personally I don't see hydrogen as a good choice for cars. However we have used electricity in preference to oil for decades in some vehicles (trains, the underground etc). I can't see hydrogen replacing electricity in these cases, but they don't use batteries.

What of ships or trucks? Why when vehicles are mentioned do we always think car?

It's true that currently most hydrogen is produced by chemical reformation. If electricity was very cheap, possibly we might make more hydrogen using it.

There is a feasability study into the question. They are talking 3-4MW of electicity used to make hydrogen in 10 years time.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... en-project

Ships are already being converted to run on hydrogen.
https://www.rechargenews.com/transition ... 2-1-749070

Someone is looking into mining trucks.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... reen-shift

Why do we always think vehicle means car?

Anyone reading the original BBC article would note that they state "So hydrogen lost the head-on battle for the motor car. But now it’s back in the frame for the sort of transport, industry and heating tasks that batteries are struggling to fulfil."

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#322949

Postby Laughton » July 1st, 2020, 12:16 pm

richfool - you might be interested in this UK company based in Sheffield at forefront of hydrogen production by electrolysis.

They have a tie up with Shell where they have a few very small production sites/outlets on Shell forecourts (unfortunately too few currently to make owning an outright Hydrogen powered car practical if you want to travel around the country).

They also have a tie up with Linde (big German company) working on big production sites for industrial applications.

Looks very green to me - production of hydrogen from renewable electricity (wind and solar power) .

http://www.itm-power.com

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#322950

Postby scrumpyjack » July 1st, 2020, 12:27 pm

Also note that Bamford bought Wrightbus and is planning to build hydrogen buses

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... rogen-bus/

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#322951

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » July 1st, 2020, 12:29 pm

Laughton wrote:richfool - you might be interested in this UK company based in Sheffield at forefront of hydrogen production by electrolysis.

They have a tie up with Shell where they have a few very small production sites/outlets on Shell forecourts (unfortunately too few currently to make owning an outright Hydrogen powered car practical if you want to travel around the country).

They also have a tie up with Linde (big German company) working on big production sites for industrial applications.

Looks very green to me - production of hydrogen from renewable electricity (wind and solar power) .

http://www.itm-power.com

My bold - Perhaps in decades to come. But today? Not a chance.

Linde are world leaders in hydrogen generation (steam reformers). I can't emphasise enough, today, electrolytic production of hydrogen really is jug and bottle scale in the overall scheme of things. The only viable use of electrolyic hydrogen I have known in my career are as a by-product of chlorine electrolytic production (it was burned or used to make hydrogen peroxide) from brine or for very high purity hydrogen from demineralised water used in silicon wafer fabrication, that's a very small scale application really. In the electrolytic hydrogen space used in wafer fabrication, Norske Hydro were the world leaders, I don't think that company actually exists any more.

RVF.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#322955

Postby dspp » July 1st, 2020, 12:38 pm

We are going through the point where BEV is cheaper to build than dino-juice vehicles.

Many of the folk proposing hydrogen as a fuel intended to burn it in their dino-juice reciprocating engines, rather than the more expensive fuel cells. That avoided them needing to retool their designs, factories, and minds.

Only problem is that BEVs are passing through the 'cheaper than reciprocating ' barrier.

So hydrogen for vehicle use at large scale looks most unlikely.

Irrespective of what Shell et al think.

regards, dspp

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#322990

Postby Urbandreamer » July 1st, 2020, 2:05 pm

dspp wrote:We are going through the point where BEV is cheaper to build than dino-juice vehicles.


A cruise ship uses about 250 ton's of fuel a day.
https://cruises.lovetoknow.com/wiki/How ... e_Ship_Use
thats 227 tonne's
Which is 2.7 GWh
https://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-ene ... ml?val=227

Good luck with your batteries and charging structure.

Hydrogen isn't ideal. You would need tanks at least 5 times bigger than oil and they would have to be cooled and under high pressure. It is however at least possible.

Seriously I was a member of the Battery Vehicle Society and am a fan of BEV's. However not all vehicles are cars and batteries don't suit all applications.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#322995

Postby dspp » July 1st, 2020, 2:32 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
dspp wrote:We are going through the point where BEV is cheaper to build than dino-juice vehicles.


A cruise ship uses about 250 ton's of fuel a day.
https://cruises.lovetoknow.com/wiki/How ... e_Ship_Use
thats 227 tonne's
Which is 2.7 GWh
https://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-ene ... ml?val=227

Good luck with your batteries and charging structure.

Hydrogen isn't ideal. You would need tanks at least 5 times bigger than oil and they would have to be cooled and under high pressure. It is however at least possible.

Seriously I was a member of the Battery Vehicle Society and am a fan of BEV's. However not all vehicles are cars and batteries don't suit all applications.


I have actually done the numbers for deep sea shipping on more than one occasion. It is likely to be one of the last refuges of dino juice. Nevertheless you would be surprised at how exposed it is to substitution by long distance trans-continental railfreight.

The future will not simply perpetuate the use cases, or the source/sink distributions of the past.

regards, dspp

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#323143

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » July 2nd, 2020, 1:43 am

dspp wrote:
Urbandreamer wrote:
dspp wrote:We are going through the point where BEV is cheaper to build than dino-juice vehicles.


A cruise ship uses about 250 ton's of fuel a day.
https://cruises.lovetoknow.com/wiki/How ... e_Ship_Use
thats 227 tonne's
Which is 2.7 GWh
https://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-ene ... ml?val=227

Good luck with your batteries and charging structure.

Hydrogen isn't ideal. You would need tanks at least 5 times bigger than oil and they would have to be cooled and under high pressure. It is however at least possible.

Seriously I was a member of the Battery Vehicle Society and am a fan of BEV's. However not all vehicles are cars and batteries don't suit all applications.


I have actually done the numbers for deep sea shipping on more than one occasion. It is likely to be one of the last refuges of dino juice. Nevertheless you would be surprised at how exposed it is to substitution by long distance trans-continental railfreight.

The future will not simply perpetuate the use cases, or the source/sink distributions of the past.

regards, dspp

(My bold) Indeed, China's belt and road initiative that right now connects Chinese exports into Europe by rail. Not a container ship in sight. And yes, LNG is the fuel du jour on the high seas. And will be for sometime to come,

RVF

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#323155

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » July 2nd, 2020, 6:15 am

An article in The Times today about Equinor building a £600m hydrogen plant in Hull for the BP/INEOS facility there. It's of course, a reformer plant, nothing new there then.

RVF

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#326225

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » July 15th, 2020, 5:36 am

And in today's FT a fascinating article on the world's first fertiliser factory planning to produce fertilisers from solar generated hydrogen. Change is coming rapidly than most of us would ever have guessed even recently. A short extract from the article -

"In the town of Puertollano in southern Spain, a factory with a large smokestack is about to make history: it will be one of the first commercial facilities in the world to use solar power-produced hydrogen to make fertiliser."

Those without an FT account may wish to try Googling for "Solar provides fertile ground for ‘green’ hydrogen chemical plant ".

RVF

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#326229

Postby JohnB » July 15th, 2020, 6:55 am

On land BEV ranges are rapidly approaching 400 miles at reasonable cost and recharging infrastructure is widespread. No chance of introducing a hydrogen distribution system. Electrolysed hydrogen will be used for grid load balancing and diluting natural gas.

In the air weight issues preclude hydrogen unless adsorption and release from zeolites has made huge progress since I last heard talk of it.

At sea, much more practical. No weight problems, big containment vessels much more efficient, few refueling points, need for 3 weeks fuel actually attractive for renewable power grid balancing (you build wind turbines 120% of domestic demand, and sell excess power to shipping lines). Batteries may triumph here, a lot depends on comparitive energy flows of bunker fuel/hydrogen/electricity during short times in port.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#329668

Postby dspp » July 30th, 2020, 12:32 pm

(can I suggest I update the thread title to be Hydrogen Matters for clarity - please say if you object - I will wait for a while before acting to see if anyone thinks otherwise)

Anyway, with thanks to JohnKempReuters,

EU Hydrogen Strategy
https://www.oxfordenergy.org/wpcms/wp-c ... rategy.pdf

"Introduction
In the context of decarbonisation of the energy system, there has been a very rapid increase in interest
among industry, government, and other stakeholders over the past 12 months regarding the potential
for hydrogen. This has been covered in detail in two recent OIES papers.
1 The main focus on
decarbonisation in general and hydrogen in particular remains in Europe, but other countries are also
increasingly considering the potential of renewable hydrogen.
There has been a proliferation of published national hydrogen strategies, starting with Japan in 2017,
and subsequently followed by South Korea (2019), New Zealand (2019), Australia (2019), Netherlands
(2020), Norway (2020), Portugal (2020), Germany (2020) and, most recently on 8th July 2020, from the
European Union. The latter will be an important document for driving the hydrogen agenda in Europe,
so this short comment [by Oxford Energy] provides a brief review of the EU Hydrogen Strategy and consideration of the
way forward."


"Conclusion
The publication of the EU Hydrogen Strategy is a significant milestone on the journey to decarbonisation
of the energy system. It will provide a valuable framework for future, more detailed work on
implementation plans. It does provide a clear indication of the enormous size of the challenge, and, if
the ambition is to be achieved, the urgency of government action to support specific projects to
manufacture renewable hydrogen at scale. It is noteworthy that, in contrast to some earlier publications,
it does acknowledge the potential role of low-carbon hydrogen from fossil fuels, at least for a transition
period on the journey to the ultimate target of renewable hydrogen.
It does leave a number of questions unanswered, particularly in the area of regulation, where major
changes will be required to achieve the ambition outlined in the strategy. While it envisages an open,
competitive and liquid market for hydrogen with unhindered cross border trade in the long term, it is
less clear how this will be reached following a period of subsidies and incentives required to justify the
very significant investments to establish the required infrastructure.
OIES will continue to monitor and assess future developments based on the strategy in our future
publications"


The actual EU Hydrogen Strategy itself can be found here https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/ ... rategy.pdf

Personally I think it will be niched into the heavy industrial petrochem areas. Still significant but not dominant.

regards, dspp

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#329834

Postby Sorcery » July 30th, 2020, 9:11 pm

dspp wrote:(can I suggest I update the thread title to be Hydrogen Matters for clarity - please say if you object - I will wait for a while before acting to see if anyone thinks otherwise)

Anyway, with thanks to JohnKempReuters,

EU Hydrogen Strategy
https://www.oxfordenergy.org/wpcms/wp-c ... rategy.pdf

"Introduction
In the context of decarbonisation of the energy system, there has been a very rapid increase in interest
among industry, government, and other stakeholders over the past 12 months regarding the potential
for hydrogen. This has been covered in detail in two recent OIES papers.
1 The main focus on
decarbonisation in general and hydrogen in particular remains in Europe, but other countries are also
increasingly considering the potential of renewable hydrogen.
There has been a proliferation of published national hydrogen strategies, starting with Japan in 2017,
and subsequently followed by South Korea (2019), New Zealand (2019), Australia (2019), Netherlands
(2020), Norway (2020), Portugal (2020), Germany (2020) and, most recently on 8th July 2020, from the
European Union. The latter will be an important document for driving the hydrogen agenda in Europe,
so this short comment [by Oxford Energy] provides a brief review of the EU Hydrogen Strategy and consideration of the
way forward."


"Conclusion
The publication of the EU Hydrogen Strategy is a significant milestone on the journey to decarbonisation
of the energy system. It will provide a valuable framework for future, more detailed work on
implementation plans. It does provide a clear indication of the enormous size of the challenge, and, if
the ambition is to be achieved, the urgency of government action to support specific projects to
manufacture renewable hydrogen at scale. It is noteworthy that, in contrast to some earlier publications,
it does acknowledge the potential role of low-carbon hydrogen from fossil fuels, at least for a transition
period on the journey to the ultimate target of renewable hydrogen.
It does leave a number of questions unanswered, particularly in the area of regulation, where major
changes will be required to achieve the ambition outlined in the strategy. While it envisages an open,
competitive and liquid market for hydrogen with unhindered cross border trade in the long term, it is
less clear how this will be reached following a period of subsidies and incentives required to justify the
very significant investments to establish the required infrastructure.
OIES will continue to monitor and assess future developments based on the strategy in our future
publications"


The actual EU Hydrogen Strategy itself can be found here https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/ ... rategy.pdf

Personally I think it will be niched into the heavy industrial petrochem areas. Still significant but not dominant.

regards, dspp


Hydrogen would be great if you could transform it into something more liquefiable and less leaky. Perhaps by the addition of a carbon atom or two? ;-) Perhaps that's the answer use methane or ethane as fuel and genuinely reclaim the equivalent carbon from the atmosphere or even perhaps the sea where it's much easier to do it see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biorock
Edited to add the link.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#329891

Postby richfool » July 31st, 2020, 8:34 am

No issues for me if mods wish to broaden the title of the topic.

dspp
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#336301

Postby dspp » August 27th, 2020, 12:07 pm

Europe faces high hurdles to make hydrogen hype reality
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-hy ... KKBN25M1ZU

- dspp

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#336328

Postby GrahamPlatt » August 27th, 2020, 1:07 pm


ReallyVeryFoolish
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#345268

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » October 5th, 2020, 9:12 am

Following my post about Petrofac this morning, this is the green hydrogen plant project awarded to them in West Australia -

https://infiniteblueenergy.com/project/ ... gen-plant/

RVF

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#345709

Postby richfool » October 6th, 2020, 7:20 pm

Hydrogen-powered train makes UK maiden journey

A hydrogen-powered train has travelled on Britain’s rail network for the first time.

The prototype, called the Hydroflex, made a 25-mile round trip through Warwickshire and Worcestershire, reaching speeds of up to 50 mph.

Its next phase is to move the hydrogen tanks, fuel cell and battery out of a carriage and stash them underneath the train.

The aim is for the train to start carrying paying passengers by the end of 2021.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-54350046


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