Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

Hydrogen matters

richfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3492
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 1195 times
Been thanked: 1280 times

Hydrogen matters

#322919

Postby richfool » July 1st, 2020, 10:26 am

Spotted this article on BBC website re hydrogen powered vehicles. I don't know much about such things myself, though it occurs to me that one wouldn't then be hostage to recharging points necessary for "all electric" vehicles:
In his speech on the planned economic recovery, the prime minister said hydrogen technology is an area where the UK leads the world. He hopes it’ll create clean jobs in the future. But is the hydrogen revolution hope or hype?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-53238512

Urbandreamer
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3121
Joined: December 7th, 2016, 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 347 times
Been thanked: 1025 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#322948

Postby Urbandreamer » July 1st, 2020, 12:14 pm

I'd like to add a few comments.

There are many more types of vehicle than car. Personally I don't see hydrogen as a good choice for cars. However we have used electricity in preference to oil for decades in some vehicles (trains, the underground etc). I can't see hydrogen replacing electricity in these cases, but they don't use batteries.

What of ships or trucks? Why when vehicles are mentioned do we always think car?

It's true that currently most hydrogen is produced by chemical reformation. If electricity was very cheap, possibly we might make more hydrogen using it.

There is a feasability study into the question. They are talking 3-4MW of electicity used to make hydrogen in 10 years time.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... en-project

Ships are already being converted to run on hydrogen.
https://www.rechargenews.com/transition ... 2-1-749070

Someone is looking into mining trucks.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... reen-shift

Why do we always think vehicle means car?

Anyone reading the original BBC article would note that they state "So hydrogen lost the head-on battle for the motor car. But now it’s back in the frame for the sort of transport, industry and heating tasks that batteries are struggling to fulfil."

Laughton
Lemon Slice
Posts: 905
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 2:15 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 330 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#322949

Postby Laughton » July 1st, 2020, 12:16 pm

richfool - you might be interested in this UK company based in Sheffield at forefront of hydrogen production by electrolysis.

They have a tie up with Shell where they have a few very small production sites/outlets on Shell forecourts (unfortunately too few currently to make owning an outright Hydrogen powered car practical if you want to travel around the country).

They also have a tie up with Linde (big German company) working on big production sites for industrial applications.

Looks very green to me - production of hydrogen from renewable electricity (wind and solar power) .

http://www.itm-power.com

scrumpyjack
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4814
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:15 am
Has thanked: 606 times
Been thanked: 2675 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#322950

Postby scrumpyjack » July 1st, 2020, 12:27 pm

Also note that Bamford bought Wrightbus and is planning to build hydrogen buses

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... rogen-bus/

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#322955

Postby dspp » July 1st, 2020, 12:38 pm

We are going through the point where BEV is cheaper to build than dino-juice vehicles.

Many of the folk proposing hydrogen as a fuel intended to burn it in their dino-juice reciprocating engines, rather than the more expensive fuel cells. That avoided them needing to retool their designs, factories, and minds.

Only problem is that BEVs are passing through the 'cheaper than reciprocating ' barrier.

So hydrogen for vehicle use at large scale looks most unlikely.

Irrespective of what Shell et al think.

regards, dspp

Urbandreamer
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3121
Joined: December 7th, 2016, 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 347 times
Been thanked: 1025 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#322990

Postby Urbandreamer » July 1st, 2020, 2:05 pm

dspp wrote:We are going through the point where BEV is cheaper to build than dino-juice vehicles.


A cruise ship uses about 250 ton's of fuel a day.
https://cruises.lovetoknow.com/wiki/How ... e_Ship_Use
thats 227 tonne's
Which is 2.7 GWh
https://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-ene ... ml?val=227

Good luck with your batteries and charging structure.

Hydrogen isn't ideal. You would need tanks at least 5 times bigger than oil and they would have to be cooled and under high pressure. It is however at least possible.

Seriously I was a member of the Battery Vehicle Society and am a fan of BEV's. However not all vehicles are cars and batteries don't suit all applications.

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#322995

Postby dspp » July 1st, 2020, 2:32 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
dspp wrote:We are going through the point where BEV is cheaper to build than dino-juice vehicles.


A cruise ship uses about 250 ton's of fuel a day.
https://cruises.lovetoknow.com/wiki/How ... e_Ship_Use
thats 227 tonne's
Which is 2.7 GWh
https://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-ene ... ml?val=227

Good luck with your batteries and charging structure.

Hydrogen isn't ideal. You would need tanks at least 5 times bigger than oil and they would have to be cooled and under high pressure. It is however at least possible.

Seriously I was a member of the Battery Vehicle Society and am a fan of BEV's. However not all vehicles are cars and batteries don't suit all applications.


I have actually done the numbers for deep sea shipping on more than one occasion. It is likely to be one of the last refuges of dino juice. Nevertheless you would be surprised at how exposed it is to substitution by long distance trans-continental railfreight.

The future will not simply perpetuate the use cases, or the source/sink distributions of the past.

regards, dspp

JohnB
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2497
Joined: January 15th, 2017, 9:20 am
Has thanked: 677 times
Been thanked: 997 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#326229

Postby JohnB » July 15th, 2020, 6:55 am

On land BEV ranges are rapidly approaching 400 miles at reasonable cost and recharging infrastructure is widespread. No chance of introducing a hydrogen distribution system. Electrolysed hydrogen will be used for grid load balancing and diluting natural gas.

In the air weight issues preclude hydrogen unless adsorption and release from zeolites has made huge progress since I last heard talk of it.

At sea, much more practical. No weight problems, big containment vessels much more efficient, few refueling points, need for 3 weeks fuel actually attractive for renewable power grid balancing (you build wind turbines 120% of domestic demand, and sell excess power to shipping lines). Batteries may triumph here, a lot depends on comparitive energy flows of bunker fuel/hydrogen/electricity during short times in port.

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#329668

Postby dspp » July 30th, 2020, 12:32 pm

(can I suggest I update the thread title to be Hydrogen Matters for clarity - please say if you object - I will wait for a while before acting to see if anyone thinks otherwise)

Anyway, with thanks to JohnKempReuters,

EU Hydrogen Strategy
https://www.oxfordenergy.org/wpcms/wp-c ... rategy.pdf

"Introduction
In the context of decarbonisation of the energy system, there has been a very rapid increase in interest
among industry, government, and other stakeholders over the past 12 months regarding the potential
for hydrogen. This has been covered in detail in two recent OIES papers.
1 The main focus on
decarbonisation in general and hydrogen in particular remains in Europe, but other countries are also
increasingly considering the potential of renewable hydrogen.
There has been a proliferation of published national hydrogen strategies, starting with Japan in 2017,
and subsequently followed by South Korea (2019), New Zealand (2019), Australia (2019), Netherlands
(2020), Norway (2020), Portugal (2020), Germany (2020) and, most recently on 8th July 2020, from the
European Union. The latter will be an important document for driving the hydrogen agenda in Europe,
so this short comment [by Oxford Energy] provides a brief review of the EU Hydrogen Strategy and consideration of the
way forward."


"Conclusion
The publication of the EU Hydrogen Strategy is a significant milestone on the journey to decarbonisation
of the energy system. It will provide a valuable framework for future, more detailed work on
implementation plans. It does provide a clear indication of the enormous size of the challenge, and, if
the ambition is to be achieved, the urgency of government action to support specific projects to
manufacture renewable hydrogen at scale. It is noteworthy that, in contrast to some earlier publications,
it does acknowledge the potential role of low-carbon hydrogen from fossil fuels, at least for a transition
period on the journey to the ultimate target of renewable hydrogen.
It does leave a number of questions unanswered, particularly in the area of regulation, where major
changes will be required to achieve the ambition outlined in the strategy. While it envisages an open,
competitive and liquid market for hydrogen with unhindered cross border trade in the long term, it is
less clear how this will be reached following a period of subsidies and incentives required to justify the
very significant investments to establish the required infrastructure.
OIES will continue to monitor and assess future developments based on the strategy in our future
publications"


The actual EU Hydrogen Strategy itself can be found here https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/ ... rategy.pdf

Personally I think it will be niched into the heavy industrial petrochem areas. Still significant but not dominant.

regards, dspp

Sorcery
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1229
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:38 pm
Has thanked: 147 times
Been thanked: 366 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#329834

Postby Sorcery » July 30th, 2020, 9:11 pm

dspp wrote:(can I suggest I update the thread title to be Hydrogen Matters for clarity - please say if you object - I will wait for a while before acting to see if anyone thinks otherwise)

Anyway, with thanks to JohnKempReuters,

EU Hydrogen Strategy
https://www.oxfordenergy.org/wpcms/wp-c ... rategy.pdf

"Introduction
In the context of decarbonisation of the energy system, there has been a very rapid increase in interest
among industry, government, and other stakeholders over the past 12 months regarding the potential
for hydrogen. This has been covered in detail in two recent OIES papers.
1 The main focus on
decarbonisation in general and hydrogen in particular remains in Europe, but other countries are also
increasingly considering the potential of renewable hydrogen.
There has been a proliferation of published national hydrogen strategies, starting with Japan in 2017,
and subsequently followed by South Korea (2019), New Zealand (2019), Australia (2019), Netherlands
(2020), Norway (2020), Portugal (2020), Germany (2020) and, most recently on 8th July 2020, from the
European Union. The latter will be an important document for driving the hydrogen agenda in Europe,
so this short comment [by Oxford Energy] provides a brief review of the EU Hydrogen Strategy and consideration of the
way forward."


"Conclusion
The publication of the EU Hydrogen Strategy is a significant milestone on the journey to decarbonisation
of the energy system. It will provide a valuable framework for future, more detailed work on
implementation plans. It does provide a clear indication of the enormous size of the challenge, and, if
the ambition is to be achieved, the urgency of government action to support specific projects to
manufacture renewable hydrogen at scale. It is noteworthy that, in contrast to some earlier publications,
it does acknowledge the potential role of low-carbon hydrogen from fossil fuels, at least for a transition
period on the journey to the ultimate target of renewable hydrogen.
It does leave a number of questions unanswered, particularly in the area of regulation, where major
changes will be required to achieve the ambition outlined in the strategy. While it envisages an open,
competitive and liquid market for hydrogen with unhindered cross border trade in the long term, it is
less clear how this will be reached following a period of subsidies and incentives required to justify the
very significant investments to establish the required infrastructure.
OIES will continue to monitor and assess future developments based on the strategy in our future
publications"


The actual EU Hydrogen Strategy itself can be found here https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/ ... rategy.pdf

Personally I think it will be niched into the heavy industrial petrochem areas. Still significant but not dominant.

regards, dspp


Hydrogen would be great if you could transform it into something more liquefiable and less leaky. Perhaps by the addition of a carbon atom or two? ;-) Perhaps that's the answer use methane or ethane as fuel and genuinely reclaim the equivalent carbon from the atmosphere or even perhaps the sea where it's much easier to do it see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biorock
Edited to add the link.

richfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3492
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 1195 times
Been thanked: 1280 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#329891

Postby richfool » July 31st, 2020, 8:34 am

No issues for me if mods wish to broaden the title of the topic.

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#336301

Postby dspp » August 27th, 2020, 12:07 pm

Europe faces high hurdles to make hydrogen hype reality
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-hy ... KKBN25M1ZU

- dspp

GrahamPlatt
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2059
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:40 am
Has thanked: 1032 times
Been thanked: 823 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#336328

Postby GrahamPlatt » August 27th, 2020, 1:07 pm


richfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3492
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 1195 times
Been thanked: 1280 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#345709

Postby richfool » October 6th, 2020, 7:20 pm

Hydrogen-powered train makes UK maiden journey

A hydrogen-powered train has travelled on Britain’s rail network for the first time.

The prototype, called the Hydroflex, made a 25-mile round trip through Warwickshire and Worcestershire, reaching speeds of up to 50 mph.

Its next phase is to move the hydrogen tanks, fuel cell and battery out of a carriage and stash them underneath the train.

The aim is for the train to start carrying paying passengers by the end of 2021.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-54350046

Mike4
Lemon Half
Posts: 7084
Joined: November 24th, 2016, 3:29 am
Has thanked: 1637 times
Been thanked: 3793 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#345757

Postby Mike4 » October 6th, 2020, 10:22 pm

richfool wrote:
Hydrogen-powered train makes UK maiden journey

A hydrogen-powered train has travelled on Britain’s rail network for the first time.

The prototype, called the Hydroflex, made a 25-mile round trip through Warwickshire and Worcestershire, reaching speeds of up to 50 mph.

Its next phase is to move the hydrogen tanks, fuel cell and battery out of a carriage and stash them underneath the train.

The aim is for the train to start carrying paying passengers by the end of 2021.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-54350046


Neever mind moving the tanks and fuel cell to under the train, I want to know where all this hydrogen to run a regular passenger service is coming from, and who is paying for it.

Your BBC link is curiously silent on this crucial question.

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#357656

Postby dspp » November 18th, 2020, 11:15 am

US DoE hydrogen plan

https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/hy ... n-2020.pdf

(insert popcorn for another 20-years)

- dspp

seekingbalance
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 162
Joined: November 7th, 2016, 11:14 am
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#357718

Postby seekingbalance » November 18th, 2020, 12:49 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Neever mind moving the tanks and fuel cell to under the train, I want to know where all this hydrogen to run a regular passenger service is coming from, and who is paying for it.


"Manufacturing company Ballard Fuel Cell Systems provided FCveloCity-HD fuel cells, while Luxfer supplied hydrogen storage tanks and Denchi Group delivered batteries for the project."

No mention of who provides the actual hydrogen, unless it is Luxfer themselves, which does not appear to be the case, they make the cylinders not the gas, I think.

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#361770

Postby dspp » December 1st, 2020, 12:48 pm

hydrogen redux courtesy JohnKempReuters
https://www.reuters.com/article/energy- ... FL8N23Y3F3

- dspp

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#362482

Postby dspp » December 3rd, 2020, 9:02 am

"Tractebel Overdick has developed a new floating wind foundation concept for 15+ MW wind turbines with a “hydrogen ready” option, and an offshore hydrogen production platform which can utilise the potential of large-scale offshore wind farms at an industrial scale of up to 800 MW."

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2020/12/02 ... 2020-12-03

poster art ? or will it get traction ?

- dspp

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Hydrogen matters

#364355

Postby dspp » December 9th, 2020, 9:52 am

Norwegian energy major Equinor and German utility RWE have joined the NortH2 green hydrogen project in the Netherlands.

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2020/12/07 ... 2020-12-09

- dspp


Return to “Oil & Gas & Energy (Sector & Companies)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests