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Hydrogen matters

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#364384

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » December 9th, 2020, 11:10 am

dspp wrote:Norwegian energy major Equinor and German utility RWE have joined the NortH2 green hydrogen project in the Netherlands.

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2020/12/07 ... 2020-12-09

- dspp

I've been doing a little digging regards Equinor. Is anyone ahead of me and can they point me to anything (other than their website) please?

Cheers
AiY

dspp
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#376201

Postby dspp » January 12th, 2021, 11:46 am

link courtesy JohnKempReuters, probably most relevant to the hydrogen thread .........

Gas oil and the production of carburetted water gas

https://twitter.us18.list-manage.com/tr ... 22953ee3a6

possible more permanent link
https://www.claire.co.uk/component/phoc ... gas-plants

- dspp

spasmodicus
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#378909

Postby spasmodicus » January 20th, 2021, 1:26 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:An interesting development at Stanlow refinery, if it happens. There's a long history of great initiatives grinding to a halt in this part of the UK. I hope for better this time but not holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

https://www.h2-view.com/story/essar-and ... ction-hub/

RVF


Essar are using are using established steam-methane reforming technology with a carbon capture (and presumably storage) back end. So the input is methane from natural gas presumably.
https://matthey.com/en/news/2020/world-first-low-carbon-hydrogen-projects-in-the-north-west-win-13m-government-backing

There is still quite a lot of controversy about what to do with captured CO2, as the demand for fizzing up coca cola is a bit limited. It seems like a blind alley to me. There are suggestions that hydrogen generated from surplus wind and solar PV by electrolysis might be a more sustainable alternative.

S

dspp
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#378918

Postby dspp » January 20th, 2021, 1:49 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:An interesting development at Stanlow refinery, if it happens. There's a long history of great initiatives grinding to a halt in this part of the UK. I hope for better this time but not holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

https://www.h2-view.com/story/essar-and ... ction-hub/

RVF


I appreciate it is not the same product (i.e. it is biofuels, not hydrogen), but it well illustrates the difficulty of getting from announcement to completion in the UK, which I don't think is going to get any better .........

"Shell has pulled out of a joint venture with British Airways and Velocys to build a flagship sustainable jet fuels plant in the UK – in a blow to Boris Johnson’s claims that Britain could deliver the world’s first zero-emission long-haul flight.

The oil firm was named last year as one of the top companies set to “turbocharge government plans” for sustainable aviation fuels, the centrepiece of the so-called “jet zero” plan to decarbonise flights.

Shell said it would leave the Altalto project, to be built in Immingham, Humberside, "


https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... uels-plant

regards, dspp

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379207

Postby dspp » January 21st, 2021, 8:51 am

Meanwhile in DK,

"Ørsted has chosen Denmark-based Green Hydrogen Systems (GHS) as the supplier of electrolysis technology for the H2RES offshore wind-to-hydrogen demonstration project.

The 2 MW electrolysis plant at the Avedøre Power Station will be built around GHS modular electrolysers powered by two 3.6 MW offshore wind turbines.

GHS, one of the project partners, announced that it will supply the electrolysers after Ørsted reached a final investment decision (FID) for H2RES."


https://www.offshorewind.biz/2021/01/20 ... 2021-01-21

- dspp

tramrider
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379397

Postby tramrider » January 21st, 2021, 5:03 pm

spasmodicus wrote:
There is still quite a lot of controversy about what to do with captured CO2, as the demand for fizzing up coca cola is a bit limited. It seems like a blind alley to me. There are suggestions that hydrogen generated from surplus wind and solar PV by electrolysis might be a more sustainable alternative.

S


If they are generating hydrogen by electrolysis, perhaps they need the oxygen for Covid treatment in the hospitals? :roll:

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379416

Postby spasmodicus » January 21st, 2021, 5:47 pm

there's an interesting article here
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/03/26/electrolyzer-overview-lowering-the-cost-of-hydrogen-and-distributing-its-productionhydrogen-industry-overview-lowering-the-cost-and-distributing-production/

It rather begs the question of what a small producer might do with a kilogram or two of hydrogen per day. Given the difficulty of storing and distibuting the stuff safely, I rather liked the idea in this article
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20120016419
which is what NASA want to do as part of long distance space flight life support, i.e. take the CO2 breathed out by the crew and combine it with H2 produced electrolytically from water, as a by product of crew oxygen generation, to make methane via the Sabatier reaction. The surprising thing is the small size of the reaction chamber described in the article. The International Space Sation uses a system of this type already, but the whole thing takes up a couple of racks (I'm not sure whether they still use 19inch racks up there) and cost is no object. Back on Earth, you could use the process to create zero carbon hydrocarbon feedstock from CO2 captured from the air. The likes of Elon Musk want to use it to make rocket fuel on the Moon and Mars, i.e. CH4 and O2, as burned in Starship's Raptor motors. The big question is whether something lie this could ever be cost effective.

Pie literally in the sky maybe?
S

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379464

Postby johnhemming » January 21st, 2021, 8:17 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:All H2 electrolysers I have seen vent the oxygen. To do anything useful with it is actually very hazardous. (Hint - everything, EVERYTHING, just about, burns in pure oxygen). Cheaper to vent it than try to do something clever with it. Being clever with oxygen causes fires

So we are back to the Hydrogen for storage vs Batteries. I don't think the physics has changed. The only thing that changes tends to be the amount of government cash offered.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379471

Postby GrahamPlatt » January 21st, 2021, 8:37 pm

We transport & use O2 regularly and safely (hospitals). Vent it into the air or capture & use, it’s just a choice.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379472

Postby johnhemming » January 21st, 2021, 8:42 pm

GrahamPlatt wrote:We transport & use O2 regularly and safely (hospitals). Vent it into the air or capture & use, it’s just a choice.

A choice that people can make taking into account all the factors.

For example people can get an Oxygen concentrator and get additional oxygen for breathing at home.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379509

Postby Sorcery » January 21st, 2021, 11:49 pm

johnhemming wrote:
GrahamPlatt wrote:We transport & use O2 regularly and safely (hospitals). Vent it into the air or capture & use, it’s just a choice.

A choice that people can make taking into account all the factors.

For example people can get an Oxygen concentrator and get additional oxygen for breathing at home.


I recently saw a picture (imagined) of a very tall crane with a large table near the top. The crane carried huge concrete blocks up to the table in times of cheap energy and let them down again in times of expensive energy generating electricty on the way. Pumped storage with concrete. I wonder if it's economically feasible. You could even build the concept into new tall structures such as skyscrapers. It would make more of an eyesore than windmills though.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379525

Postby johnhemming » January 22nd, 2021, 8:05 am

Sorcery wrote:Pumped storage with concrete. I wonder if it's economically feasible.

For storage you need to start with the science and particularly the second law of thermodynamics. The big question for grid AC is what proportion of the energy is lost as you go into storage and come out of it. (Round Trip Efficiency)

I found this page on Round Trip Efficiency
https://energymag.net/round-trip-efficiency/

I was interested in the reference to ETES (partially because I didn't believe the quoted figure which as you will see later is at least 20% too high) so I found this page
https://www.siemensgamesa.com/en-int/pr ... -with-etes

I don't like the way they highlight this
The project achieved 95% heat storage efficiency

because I know that the second law of thermodynamics will constrain electrical efficiency to around 50% at best. Any to be fair to them they do reference this in the graphic with a figure of 45% which is probably about right.

Water pumped storage has quite a high efficiency which is almost as high as batteries. I think the hassle of getting enough weights up and down with a table and the friction of moving them around will reduce the energy efficiency and unless it can be done a lot cheaper than batteries it won't beat batteries.

There was an interesting story in New Scientist today about potentially replacing Lithium Batteries with Sodium Ion Batteries. These would have the advantage of a more readily available element (Na). However, the batteries will weigh more so they are probably really grid backup batteries rather than moving batteries.

My expectation personally is that whether are a result of action to reduce climate change or whether because of geological constraints (peak oil) we will have a lower availability of energy in the future than today hence energy efficiency will be key to everything.

In the end the laws of physics will trump the laws of economics.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379530

Postby johnhemming » January 22nd, 2021, 8:30 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:There's been studies using old coal mine shafts for the same thing.

Do you know what the Round Trip Efficiency came out as?

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379548

Postby johnhemming » January 22nd, 2021, 9:22 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:I kind of think it's a purely mechanical version of pumped storage hydro in a way.

Indeed it is. However, I would wonder about capacity. Also it would involve quite a bit of cable weight. However, it would not require friendly geography.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379562

Postby dspp » January 22nd, 2021, 10:07 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
johnhemming wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:I kind of think it's a purely mechanical version of pumped storage hydro in a way.

Indeed it is. However, I would wonder about capacity. Also it would involve quite a bit of cable weight. However, it would not require friendly geography.

I understand the idea is to use existing but closed deep mine shafts. Intrusion to the landscape one could imagine to be minimal.

RVF


Everyone I know that has tried to do a preliminary design & corresponding business case on these various mine shafts / raised weights storage solutions has abandoned them PDQ. I did think they were barking up a gum tree from the get go, but they needed to peel the onion one further layer to reach the same conclusion.

Pumped storage and the various higher efficiency lithium systems are the benchmark.

Compressed gases are (imho) not a good pathway unless there is a sidestream of other benefits in the heat/cold area.

regards, dspp

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379793

Postby 88V8 » January 22nd, 2021, 8:15 pm

'First green hydrogen project becomes reality: thyssenkrupp to install 88 MW water electrolysis plant for Hydro-Québec in Canada'
https://www.thyssenkrupp.com/en/newsroo ... nada-93778
.....converting water into 11,100 tonnes of green hydrogen and 88,000 tonnes of oxygen a year.

'This will not initially be for export; the plant's output will supply clean energy and oxygen to a nearby recycling plant, where it'll be used to convert non-recyclable waste into biofuels instead of sending it to landfill.

But eventually, Canada hopes plants like this can convert its enormous hydro potential into a clean energy export business, powering fuel cell vehicles and aircraft, feeding into more integrated hydrogen economies and industrial uses, and selling as a feed stock from which carbon-neutral synthetic fuels can be manufactured.

Hydro-Quebec says it's also looking into green H2 as a potential bulk energy storage medium, although that'll present some challenges – we wonder if it'd be more efficient to simply plonk the water back up the hill with a pumped hydro energy storage system.'

More puffery about the 'integrated hydrogen economy', which may actually be valid when there's a customer on the doorstep.

V8

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379794

Postby johnhemming » January 22nd, 2021, 8:17 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Centrica looking to repurpose the depleted Rough gas field for hydrogen storage -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... north-sea/

Pay walled, I'm afraid.


British Gas owner Centrica is also joining the Hydrogen Taskforce, a group of industry players lobbying the government to support hydrogen development.


I wonder what sort of leakage would occur from an old gas field?

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379796

Postby johnhemming » January 22nd, 2021, 8:19 pm

88V8 wrote: we wonder if it'd be more efficient to simply plonk the water back up the hill with a pumped hydro energy storage system.'

More puffery about the 'integrated hydrogen economy', which may actually be valid when there's a customer on the doorstep.


I think we already know that pumped storage would be better. If the customer is the government then it doesn't really have to be efficient anyway.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379848

Postby Sorcery » January 22nd, 2021, 10:39 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
johnhemming wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Centrica looking to repurpose the depleted Rough gas field for hydrogen storage -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... north-sea/

Pay walled, I'm afraid.


British Gas owner Centrica is also joining the Hydrogen Taskforce, a group of industry players lobbying the government to support hydrogen development.


I wonder what sort of leakage would occur from an old gas field?

You aren't the only one wondering that. My guess is that Centrica's main interest here is avoiding having to pay to decommission Rough.

RVF


Yes, I suspect Centrica are salivating at the heroin of subsidy dependency. Perfectly good company (British Gas) sacrificed on the altar of the green blob. Personally I avoid investing in any company that relies on subsidies. I don't think government knows how to run or invest in companies or subsidise them, and I don't think it should.

I really don't like the direction of travel, green ought to be a consideration, but a religion?

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379849

Postby dspp » January 22nd, 2021, 10:45 pm

88V8 wrote:'First green hydrogen project becomes reality: thyssenkrupp to install 88 MW water electrolysis plant for Hydro-Québec in Canada'
https://www.thyssenkrupp.com/en/newsroo ... nada-93778
.....converting water into 11,100 tonnes of green hydrogen and 88,000 tonnes of oxygen a year.

'This will not initially be for export; the plant's output will supply clean energy and oxygen to a nearby recycling plant, where it'll be used to convert non-recyclable waste into biofuels instead of sending it to landfill.

But eventually, Canada hopes plants like this can convert its enormous hydro potential into a clean energy export business, powering fuel cell vehicles and aircraft, feeding into more integrated hydrogen economies and industrial uses, and selling as a feed stock from which carbon-neutral synthetic fuels can be manufactured.

Hydro-Quebec says it's also looking into green H2 as a potential bulk energy storage medium, although that'll present some challenges – we wonder if it'd be more efficient to simply plonk the water back up the hill with a pumped hydro energy storage system.'

More puffery about the 'integrated hydrogen economy', which may actually be valid when there's a customer on the doorstep.

V8


I think this may be the H2 venture that Shell dumped the UK for https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... uels-plant

Hydro-Quebec may have a point with this project. If they can convert excess hydro (that cannot squeeze down their bottlenecked grid to the main consumption centres at the time when demand exists) into bio-synthetic-jet-fuel then they simultaneously get a product that commands a premium price, and can time-shift otherwise lost waterpower via a stable/storeable medium for subsequent sale. One would need to dig through the details that we will not have access to in order to form a view as to whether they may have their sums (economics & engineering) right on this one.

regards, dspp


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