Can a block on a transfer from a DB to SIPP be appealed

[OhNoNotimAgain]

I am seeking to move a small pension from a DB scheme to a SIPP but I have been told that is not allowed by the scheme rules.
As it is my money can I appeal that decision?

[AsleepInYorkshire]

I am seeking to move a small pension from a DB scheme to a SIPP but I have been told that is not allowed by the scheme rules.
As it is my money can I appeal that decision?

I know little about specific mechanics on this but suspect you need to find a IFA who will support this and I think you will struggle. We did when looking to transfer my good ladies DB into her SIPP.

You can take a larger cash payment at retirement though and maybe put that in a SIPP/ISA, which is an option we've looked at as the DB income for me if my good lady predeceases me is pathetic.

AiY(D)

[mc2fool]

I am seeking to move a small pension from a DB scheme to a SIPP but I have been told that is not allowed by the scheme rules.
As it is my money can I appeal that decision?

a) How small? Does it have a transfer value of less that £30,000? If so, no IFA advice is needed.
b) Is this an unfunded public sector pension? If so, AIUI, no transfers out are allowed, period.
c) Ask for a copy of the scheme rules.
d) Actually, technically pensions are not your money but belong to a discretionary trust, which is why (normally) they're not subject to inheritance tax. This includes SIPPs too.

This looks like useful reading:

https://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/en/document-library/scheme-management-detailed-guidance/administration-detailed-guidance/db-to-dc-transfers-and-conversions

[OhNoNotimAgain]

I am seeking to move a small pension from a DB scheme to a SIPP but I have been told that is not allowed by the scheme rules.
As it is my money can I appeal that decision?

a) How small? Does it have a transfer value of less that £30,000? If so, no IFA advice is needed.
b) Is this an unfunded public sector pension? If so, AIUI, no transfers out are allowed, period.
c) Ask for a copy of the scheme rules.
d) Actually, technically pensions are not your money but belong to a discretionary trust, which is why (normally) they're not subject to inheritance tax. This includes SIPPs too.

This looks like useful reading:

https://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/en/document-library/scheme-management-detailed-guidance/administration-detailed-guidance/db-to-dc-transfers-and-conversions

Yes, £20k, and yes it is a public sector pension so maybe that's the end of it. I would have thought HMG would be keen to discharge what liabilities it can.

[scrumpyjack]

I am seeking to move a small pension from a DB scheme to a SIPP but I have been told that is not allowed by the scheme rules.
As it is my money can I appeal that decision?

Bear in mind that with a DB pension there is not a specific amount of money held on your behalf. The liability of the payer is to pay you the defined amount of pension each year for the rest of your life. The capital value of that liability is an actuarial estimate not a pile of physical assets. So it is reasonable that the payee should not be forced to pay up a specific amount in one go in place of meeting its future pension payment commitments.

[swill453]

Yes, £20k, and yes it is a public sector pension so maybe that's the end of it. I would have thought HMG would be keen to discharge what liabilities it can.

They will factor into their decision the likelihood of deferred pensioners forgetting about their pensions and not claiming, or dying first. So not a simple calculation.

Scott.

[mc2fool]

I am seeking to move a small pension from a DB scheme to a SIPP but I have been told that is not allowed by the scheme rules.
As it is my money can I appeal that decision?

a) How small? Does it have a transfer value of less that £30,000? If so, no IFA advice is needed.
b) Is this an unfunded public sector pension? If so, AIUI, no transfers out are allowed, period.
c) Ask for a copy of the scheme rules.
d) Actually, technically pensions are not your money but belong to a discretionary trust, which is why (normally) they're not subject to inheritance tax. This includes SIPPs too.

This looks like useful reading:

https://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/en/document-library/scheme-management-detailed-guidance/administration-detailed-guidance/db-to-dc-transfers-and-conversions

Yes, £20k, and yes it is a public sector pension so maybe that's the end of it. I would have thought HMG would be keen to discharge what liabilities it can.

Teacher, firefighter, NHS worker, police, armed forces? Google tells me those are all unfunded schemes. If you weren't one of those try a search for unfunded public sector pension schemes and dig further than I did, or just google for what you were to check....

[Alaric]

. I would have thought HMG would be keen to discharge what liabilities it can.

Not when the actual need to stump up the cash is way into the future and where paying the transfer value is an immediate cash amount needed to be funded by borrowing or taxation.

If a private sector company had the long tail liabilities of the unfunded pension schemes, they would be required to disclose these on its balance sheet. Being the Government it doesn't have to.

[OhNoNotimAgain]

I am seeking to move a small pension from a DB scheme to a SIPP but I have been told that is not allowed by the scheme rules.
As it is my money can I appeal that decision?

a) How small? Does it have a transfer value of less that £30,000? If so, no IFA advice is needed.
b) Is this an unfunded public sector pension? If so, AIUI, no transfers out are allowed, period.
c) Ask for a copy of the scheme rules.
d) Actually, technically pensions are not your money but belong to a discretionary trust, which is why (normally) they're not subject to inheritance tax. This includes SIPPs too.

This looks like useful reading:

https://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/en/document-library/scheme-management-detailed-guidance/administration-detailed-guidance/db-to-dc-transfers-and-conversions

Yes, £20k, and yes it is a public sector pension so maybe that's the end of it. I would have thought HMG would be keen to discharge what liabilities it can.

Teacher, firefighter, NHS worker, police, armed forces? Google tells me those are all unfunded schemes. If you weren't one of those try a search for unfunded public sector pension schemes and dig further than I did, or just google for what you were to check....

It is funded by its own LA pension fund. I tried to get appointed as a Trustee while I was a Councillor but couldn't get any votes. It had far too much invested in fixed income so I am sure it will have suffered recently.

[mc2fool]

I am seeking to move a small pension from a DB scheme to a SIPP but I have been told that is not allowed by the scheme rules.
As it is my money can I appeal that decision?

a) How small? Does it have a transfer value of less that £30,000? If so, no IFA advice is needed.
b) Is this an unfunded public sector pension? If so, AIUI, no transfers out are allowed, period.
c) Ask for a copy of the scheme rules.
d) Actually, technically pensions are not your money but belong to a discretionary trust, which is why (normally) they're not subject to inheritance tax. This includes SIPPs too.

This looks like useful reading:

https://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/en/document-library/scheme-management-detailed-guidance/administration-detailed-guidance/db-to-dc-transfers-and-conversions

Yes, £20k, and yes it is a public sector pension so maybe that's the end of it. I would have thought HMG would be keen to discharge what liabilities it can.

Teacher, firefighter, NHS worker, police, armed forces? Google tells me those are all unfunded schemes. If you weren't one of those try a search for unfunded public sector pension schemes and dig further than I did, or just google for what you were to check....

It is funded by its own LA pension fund. I tried to get appointed as a Trustee while I was a Councillor but couldn't get any votes. It had far too much invested in fixed income so I am sure it will have suffered recently.

The Local Government Pension Scheme (LGPS)? If so, that's a funded scheme. Oh but wait ... you're in Scotland aren't you. Humm, ok well then I'm not so sure ... time to DYOR mate!

[OhNoNotimAgain]

From my inquiries so far it appears that no transfers out are allowed once you have started drawing your pension.
But thanks for the link, it is helpful.

[mc2fool]

From my inquiries so far it appears that no transfers out are allowed once you have started drawing your pension.
But thanks for the link, it is helpful.

Ahhhh! You didn't mention you were drawing on it already! Yes, AFAIAA that's pretty much universal.

[OhNoNotimAgain]

From my inquiries so far it appears that no transfers out are allowed once you have started drawing your pension.
But thanks for the link, it is helpful.

Ahhhh! You didn't mention you were drawing on it already! Yes, AFAIAA that's pretty much universal.

It rather makes you wonder why there is any point in getting a CETV then for a pension that has been crystalised.

[mc2fool]

From my inquiries so far it appears that no transfers out are allowed once you have started drawing your pension.
But thanks for the link, it is helpful.

Ahhhh! You didn't mention you were drawing on it already! Yes, AFAIAA that's pretty much universal.

It rather makes you wonder why there is any point in getting a CETV then for a pension that has been crystalised.

That's a good question, why don't you ask it of them, for our communal edification?

AIUI calculating a CETV is not a push-button matter; it takes an actuary to sit down and figure it out and so would not be something the scheme would bother (i.e. use resources) to do casually....

[ursaminortaur]

From my inquiries so far it appears that no transfers out are allowed once you have started drawing your pension.
But thanks for the link, it is helpful.

Ahhhh! You didn't mention you were drawing on it already! Yes, AFAIAA that's pretty much universal.

It looks like it is legally barred.

https://www.drewberryinsurance.co.uk/pensions-advice/faqs/can-i-transfer-a-final-salary-pension-scheme

Retired members of defined benefit schemes who are already receiving payment of their benefits are barred by law from making transfers to defined contribution schemes.

Transfers from unfunded public service defined benefit schemes are also prohibited.