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Allowable contribution to SIPP after previously taking PCLS

SciFi
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Allowable contribution to SIPP after previously taking PCLS

#645553

Postby SciFi » February 8th, 2024, 12:19 pm

Hi,
I have a question about SIPP contributions I can make after taking a tax free lump sum (25%) to ensure I don’t accidently fall foul of recycling rules

What I would like to do
I have retried so I am not an earner. Tax Relief for non-earners: If you have no UK relevant earnings, you are limited to tax relief on a gross contribution of £3,600 (£2,880 net). This applies to me.

So, having taken my25% tax free PCLS (Pension Commencement Lump Sum) I would like to contribute £3,600 (£2,880 net) back into that SIPP (well, a ‘new’ uncrystallised version). I want to do this in FYT023 (and annually hereafter)

But I don’t want to accidentally fall fowl of tax recycling rules (I found a Hargreaves Lansdown fact sheet here: https://www.hl.co.uk/__data/assets/pdf_ ... tsheet.pdf)

The rules on Recycling are:
You could incur a tax charge if ALL of the following happen:
    • [TICK!] you take tax-free cash from a pension,
    • [TICK!] as a result of taking tax-free cash, the contributions paid into a pension are significantly greater than they would otherwise have been (see ‘What counts as a significant increase?’ below),
    • [potentially TICK!] the recycling was pre-planned (HMRC will consider each case and any evidence which points to preplanning),
    • [TICK!] the amount of tax-free cash you take, together with any tax-free cash taken in the previous 12 months, exceeds £7,500 and;
    • [No!] the cumulative amount of the additional contributions exceeds 30% of the tax-free cash (contributions in the year of retirement or the two tax years either side)

Which of the above apply to me:
[Note: I’m unclear whether my “contribution” counts as £3600 (gross) or £2,880 (net). For now, I assume worst case of £3600.]

    • Did I take tax-free cash from a pension: YES
    • Was this preplanned?: No, I only thought of it after taking the lump sum. However, there’s no way I can demonstrate that. My actions are indistinguishable from if I did preplan. So, let’s assume “YES”
    • Would the contribution be a ‘significant increase’? : I have only ever made one contribution to my SIPP account (in 20/03/2009). After that it just grew. So ‘any contribution’ is a ‘significant increase’, so YES
    • Did the amount of tax-free cash you take, together with any tax-free cash taken in the previous 12 months, exceed £7,500: YES
    • Would the cumulative amount of the additional contributions exceed 30% of the tax-free cash? No.
      o The Pension Commencement Lump Sum (PCLS) was just under £91k.
      o If I take the figure of £3600, that is just under 4% of the PCLS. So, for five rolling years the cumulative total is just under 20%. That’s less than 30% so, I’m OK

Questions
1. Have I made any mistakes in my thinking above?
2. Can I (annually) contribute £3,600 (£2,880 net) into my SIPP?
3. Should the calculation of 5 years contributions be [5 * £2880] or [5 * £3600]?

While I plan to pay £3,600 (£2,880 net) into my (uncrystallised) SIPP I’m also planning to drawdown (approx.) £12k from my crystallised SIPP (that I’d previously taken the PCLS from)
4. Is this ok? It looks odd to me that I would be paying into my SIPP and drawing down from it at the same time

Thanks

Pete

kempiejon
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Re: Allowable contribution to SIPP after previously taking PCLS

#645576

Postby kempiejon » February 8th, 2024, 1:17 pm

I think you're over thinking it. Well I hope you are as I have the same plan.
As I understand it everyone can put at least £2880 in a SIPP and have it grossed up. Well everyone under 75, after that your not entitled to the rebate.
You have no other relevant income so can't make any more payments and I think those would be the payments that could fall foul of the recycling rules. Even so after taking your lump sum one could still add to your SIPP up to the maximum but then unusual amounts might fall foul of the recycling. But I haven't bothered to do fresh research and I am relying on memory from when I thought about it last year when I was making the maximum amount each year but hadn't taken a lump sum and intending to continue to do so after crystallisation.

bots33
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Re: Allowable contribution to SIPP after previously taking PCLS

#645593

Postby bots33 » February 8th, 2024, 1:55 pm

Hi Pete - I asked similar question a few weeks back - have a look at this thread
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=41995

The gist of the responses were that HMRC need to prove it was pre-planned (so I'd review the "YES" to your second question). Did you have savings / cash of £2880 when you received the PCSE? If so, you can argue it was these funds you used for the contribution, rather than the lump sum.

The £2880 is what I understand to be your contribution (the other £720 from the SIPP provider). It's well below the MPAA allowance of £10k so you should be OK on that score.

I don't have detailed knowledge on pensions so will let others correct the above if needed.

mc2fool
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Re: Allowable contribution to SIPP after previously taking PCLS

#645600

Postby mc2fool » February 8th, 2024, 2:16 pm

And I asked that question (amongst a number of others) just a week ago. viewtopic.php?p=644172#p644172 ;)

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Re: Allowable contribution to SIPP after previously taking PCLS

#645626

Postby Dod101 » February 8th, 2024, 3:34 pm

bots33 wrote:Hi Pete - I asked similar question a few weeks back - have a look at this thread
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=41995

The gist of the responses were that HMRC need to prove it was pre-planned (so I'd review the "YES" to your second question). Did you have savings / cash of £2880 when you received the PCSE? If so, you can argue it was these funds you used for the contribution, rather than the lump sum.

The £2880 is what I understand to be your contribution (the other £720 from the SIPP provider). It's well below the MPAA allowance of £10k so you should be OK on that score.

I don't have detailed knowledge on pensions so will let others correct the above if needed.


Of course the other £720 comes from the Government which is why HMRC are taking an interest

Dof

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Re: Allowable contribution to SIPP after previously taking PCLS

#645647

Postby SteelCamel » February 8th, 2024, 4:19 pm

Dod101 wrote:Of course the other £720 comes from the Government which is why HMRC are taking an interest


The other £720 comes from you, nominally, as it's a refund of income tax that you paid on the money you put in to the pension - even if you didn't actually pay this tax. And pension contributions always work on the gross figure, so the £3600 that you nominally had before income tax was deducted (even if it wasn't) and then refunded to put you back where you started.

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Re: Allowable contribution to SIPP after previously taking PCLS

#645678

Postby Dod101 » February 8th, 2024, 5:46 pm

SteelCamel wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Of course the other £720 comes from the Government which is why HMRC are taking an interest


The other £720 comes from you, nominally, as it's a refund of income tax that you paid on the money you put in to the pension - even if you didn't actually pay this tax. And pension contributions always work on the gross figure, so the £3600 that you nominally had before income tax was deducted (even if it wasn't) and then refunded to put you back where you started.


I appreciate all that. I was only pointing out that it does not come from the funds of the SIPP provider.

Dod

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Re: Allowable contribution to SIPP after previously taking PCLS

#645700

Postby bots33 » February 8th, 2024, 7:25 pm

Thanks Dod, SteelCamel for clarifying where the £720 comes from. Since Pete is also drawing down £12k from his crystallised pot (that is taxable), assume he can contribute the £2880 in this and future years, without reference to the recycling rules?


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