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22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

including wills and probate
uspaul666
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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#202755

Postby uspaul666 » February 20th, 2019, 10:01 pm

chas49 wrote:
uspaul666 wrote:Comments? Candid or otherwise?


Whilst it won't be of much help to you, are you able to provide any further detail of how the scam worked? Was it the one described earlier in this thread or something else? Did the fraudster know that your daughter would have instant access to just under £10K in cash, or was it just a (un)lucky shot in the dark?

This is probably moving into comfort corner but...
It was pretty much as described earlier. The “police” called about a fraud being perpetrated by staff at the bank. All phones were being bugged so she shouldn’t contact parents or anyone else. They originally asked to speak to wife but spoke to her instead, I think they probably just guessed her bank/isa provider or maybe tricked her in to providing it. She’s still pretty distressed, It’s difficult to talk to her about it still. We’ll probably never find out the whole detailed story. She actually has family two streets away, why she never just walked over there to talk to them we’ll also never know.????!!! So two aunties are also feeling guilty and confused too.
It’s been difficult to understand for us, I do accept that “compensation” for here constitutes a lower interest rate for savers but I still believe that any financial institution should make best efforts to protect customers, sometimes even from themselves, but ultimately permit them to step in front of that bus if they really want to (I guess).

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#202909

Postby didds » February 21st, 2019, 1:10 pm

huge sympathies all round.

I suppose the problem with banks etc covering all such frauds leaves the door open to false frauds. eg X says they were scammed but in fact the cash is in a suitcase under their bed, and "replaced" by the bank.

didds

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#202922

Postby scotia » February 21st, 2019, 1:35 pm

uspaul666 wrote:It was pretty much as described earlier.

Thanks for the update - it must be painful to recount it, for both yourself and your daughter.
Best wishes to both of you.

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#203590

Postby XFool » February 24th, 2019, 7:57 pm

Mike88 wrote:If a person goes along to to a bank in order to withdraw money from their own account and after being able to answer questions relating to their DOB and age next birthday how can any possible blame be apportioned to Nationwide? How could they not give the person their own money?

I have to say I agree. What more could Nationwide do, ask her what it was for? But, from above, the fraudsters had already coached her in how to deal with that.

Originally I always felt very sure I would never fall for computer scams or cold calls. But these things have over the years become pretty 'clever' and more recently I have felt that had I not heard of these types of things in reports it is not unimaginable that I might have been deceived. (Ironically, wrt the call-back phone call fraud, a few years ago on TMF I asked a technical question about a 'fault' I had discovered on my landline whereby I could not clear down the line from my end!)

For this reason I think these things should be publicised in detail as widely as possible, so the maximum number of people are alerted to how they work. Forewarned is forearmed!

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#203688

Postby zico » February 25th, 2019, 12:54 pm

She’s still pretty distressed, It’s difficult to talk to her about it still. We’ll probably never find out the whole detailed story.


In my view, it's really important to have a proper conversation about exactly what happened, and why she want along with it, to help her safeguard herself against this kind of thing happening again. Actually delivering cash to a fraudster may well make her a target for future scams.

Key message for me is for her to realise that it really isn't the bank's fault, she was conned into doing something stupid, but that doesn't make her a stupid person, as lots of very intelligent and shrewd people have been conned into doing something stupid. Often more empathetic and "nicer" people are more likely to fall for scams because they are more likely to engage with people. The "nasty" people who simply hang-up on cold callers are the ones who don't get caught.
These people really are experts in identifying weaknesses and trigger points that enable them to scam people, so she needs to understand what it was that drew her in, and how to avoid it in future.

Before talking to her, my advice would be to gather together a few example of very smart successful people being conned - for example, I read recently about the self-made billionaire boss of Bet365 losing millions in a con by a US fraudster - apparently she was aware he'd been previously imprisoned for major fraud, but thought it was OK because the fraud happened over 10 years ago! Seems a stupid decision, but she's an extremely rich and very astute person, so helps prove these things can happen to anyone.

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#208273

Postby melonfool » March 17th, 2019, 8:22 pm

uspaul666 wrote: I feel that Nationwide has failed my daughter to some degree in that she was not asked politely why she was doing this.


Mmmmm......presumably you only have her say-so on this though?

In my experience, banks DO ask why you are withdrawing large amounts of cash when it is unusual. Have they confirmed they did not?

Maybe they asked and she gave the story she was told to give by the scammer and that was enough of an answer for them - these scammers know their stuff (I am currently dealing with a client who has dismissed an employee for not doing security checks and going on to hand over a number of property keys to a scammer).

The fund the banks are setting up is, I believe, for where the scam is the bank account numbers not matching the name the account is held in. So, if you owe ClitheroeKid £1,000 (and let's face it, we all owe him a lot!) then then the scammer intercepts his email to you asking for the money to be sent to his bank and sends you a new email with the same message but with their own bank details - so it still says 'ClitheroeKid' but with their bank details - currently banks do not have any way of marrying up the two. There is a project to get this happening but it keeps being pushed back and back by the bans as it's 'too hard'.

I do feel sorry for her, it's very easy to get conned like this.

Mel

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215203

Postby Pipsmum » April 15th, 2019, 3:33 pm

It is incredibly easy to be conned. I've just (hopefully) saved my 87 year old dad from one of these clever tricksters in the nick of time.

He was told his computer had been hacked and that he was due some compensation from Microsoft as he had been hacked whilst under their warranty. The fraudster claimed to have paid him a large sum and provided proof (presumably having gained my dads bank details to do so). Luckily dad mentioned a 'deal' to me that night on the phone. He thought he was repaying an overpayment of the compensation but was being asked to pay it in via a moneygram to India.

I drove frantically to his house. As I arrived, his cursor was being very active all on its own on the screen. My fathers face kept appearing periodically so the thief could presumably see through the camera at him. Horrors!!!! I covered the camera hole with a business card and persuaded my father to let me phone his bank fraud section. Meanwhile because the phone was engaged, the conman was sending dreadful threatening messages via the screen saying answer him or he would turn off all our internet etc. The bank said unplug the computer, which we did, but it kept on going as it was a laptop. We managed to press the stop button just as the cursor was typing in moneygram in the search bar. Such terrifying stuff.

The fact he could actually see and watch my dad was beyond horrifying. I've always covered my camera up with a bit of tissue and sellotape with my children taking the tiddle for my paranoia. Justified now I think. My poor old dad could have had a heart attack there and then. I was shaking like a leaf. It was horrendously terrifying.

I've no idea what they could have gained access to, as they presumably have been able to rummage through his whole computer all night long. We've not dared turn that computer back on until we take it to a computer engineer to remove the spyware. Plus I've shut down all internet access to his bank.

Although banks can't be held responsible for peoples actions, I do think a few questions wouldn't go amiss upon large withdrawals, such as does anyone else know about the transaction. Maybe the PO should quiz anyone old that is making moneygram payments to foreign countries. Nobody being honest would mind.

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215204

Postby melonfool » April 15th, 2019, 3:37 pm

My bank, all of them as I have several, has big red warning messages telling you not to make transfers on other people's say so and to call them immediately.

I'm not sure what else you think they can do in this sort of situation.

Mel

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215211

Postby UncleIan » April 15th, 2019, 3:50 pm

Pipsmum wrote:I've no idea what they could have gained access to, as they presumably have been able to rummage through his whole computer all night long. We've not dared turn that computer back on until we take it to a computer engineer to remove the spyware. Plus I've shut down all internet access to his bank.


Sounds like a variant on a couple of scams. Scary stuff indeed. I would guess they had managed to convince your dad to download some probably fairly standard software which allowed them to take control of his PC, "remote desktop" is the broad term. And yes, they'd be basically using his computer. So the flashing up of the webcam is probably just to give more of an impression of control and to instil fear. I'm also almost 100% sure there was never a large payment made into his account. But yes, I'd leave the computer off, and hand it over to someone you trust to clean it up, remove the remote desktop software, and while there, have a good poke around for spyware and viruses.

If he did give his bank account number to them, or any credit card info, I'd be asking for a change of account number.

Good luck!

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215212

Postby swill453 » April 15th, 2019, 3:51 pm

Note that today TSB launched a refund guarantee scheme for fraud victims. This goes beyond their legal obligations and would seem to cover the situation the OP's daughter found herself in (if it had been with TSB and after 14th April).

The new guarantee means fraud victims will be refunded for all types of fraud, including APP [authorised push payment] scams. Refunds for authorised transactions will be capped at £1 million.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/ ... -victims-/

TSB's executive chairman Richard Meddings said: "The vast majority of fraud claims across UK banking are from innocent victims of fraud, who have been targeted by criminals and organised gangs. However, all too often these customers must fight to be refunded and are not treated as victims of crime.

"We want to provide peace of mind to our customers, that's why we're proud to announce the TSB fraud refund guarantee. If a TSB customer innocently suffers a fraud loss on their account after being targeted by a criminal, we'll cover it."


Scott.

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215254

Postby Pipsmum » April 15th, 2019, 6:47 pm

UncleIan wrote:
Sounds like a variant on a couple of scams. Scary stuff indeed. I would guess they had managed to convince your dad to download some probably fairly standard software which allowed them to take control of his PC, "remote desktop" is the broad term. And yes, they'd be basically using his computer. So the flashing up of the webcam is probably just to give more of an impression of control and to instil fear. I'm also almost 100% sure there was never a large payment made into his account. But yes, I'd leave the computer off, and hand it over to someone you trust to clean it up, remove the remote desktop software, and while there, have a good poke around for spyware and viruses.

If he did give his bank account number to them, or any credit card info, I'd be asking for a change of account number.

Good luck!


The con man had told him they needed to get into his computer to fix the hacker trouble amongst various other 'problems'. The bank confirmed at the time that no payment had been made. According to Lloyds fraud squad, the scammers somehow make a false receipt, which via the remote desktop control, they are able to show the victim. The con men even had the nerve to phone back afterwards and argue with me saying he'd stolen their money. Horrendous nerve. He's too old to change his phone number otherwise his friends can't find him.

Deffo a change of account number as a precaution and I hadn't thought of credit cards. Thank you. I hope he doesn't have any. I hope they couldn't see his emails too. HL have been put on hold too. Can't think of anything else to put a stop on.

I've bought him a new laptop that operates a different system and given him a new email.

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215277

Postby melonfool » April 15th, 2019, 10:00 pm

If they called on a landline you can install that BT thing that stops all calls until the person says who they are. Can't remember what it's called bit it dies work, scammers just hang up or the system hangs up when it detects the delay on the line.

Mel

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215293

Postby Pipsmum » April 15th, 2019, 10:45 pm

melonfool wrote:If they called on a landline you can install that BT thing that stops all calls until the person says who they are. Can't remember what it's called bit it dies work, scammers just hang up or the system hangs up when it detects the delay on the line.

Mel


Thank you. I'll look at that.

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215370

Postby Infrasonic » April 16th, 2019, 11:44 am

I tend to agree with the posts about any legal recourse being a no hope pursuit as the banks tend to robustly defend even when on shaky ground, but I did find this from a google search (although it is from 2015).
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/ ... ied-access

Nationwide
The building society says its customers can withdraw up to £2,000 per account a day. “However, if they want to withdraw more than £500, it is best to pre-book the amount with the branch to ensure that it has the cash available. If customers want to withdraw more than £2,000, they would need to pre-book the money. This can be done the day before.” It adds that there is no set maximum that customers can withdraw, but if it is a large amount then it “would look to work with the customer to see if there was another solution for withdrawing their money (ie, Chaps).”


FWIW when I had a significant amount of money with Nationwide many years ago they did make it difficult to withdraw large amounts (thousands rather than hundreds), even as a cheque (which I then paid into another bank next door where my online current account was held, as I was worried about it being hacked in the early days such things).
I had to have photo ID, sit down for a ten minute grilling whilst they interrogated me, sign papers et al. I got a bit annoyed at the time, but with hindsight appreciate their thoroughness.

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215371

Postby tikunetih » April 16th, 2019, 11:48 am

Pipsmum wrote:
melonfool wrote:If they called on a landline you can install that BT thing that stops all calls until the person says who they are. Can't remember what it's called bit it dies work, scammers just hang up or the system hangs up when it detects the delay on the line.

Mel


Thank you. I'll look at that.


This sort of thing may help:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01CP2DT5I/

    "Numbers on your contact list get straight through. Numbers you have blocked are rejected. For all other calls BT Premium Call Blocking asks the caller to say their name and then asks the user whether they want to accept or block the call without speaking to the caller. Incorporates trueCall call blocking technology."


Relies on you having Caller ID on the line.

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215421

Postby melonfool » April 16th, 2019, 2:24 pm

Infrasonic wrote:I tend to agree with the posts about any legal recourse being a no hope pursuit as the banks tend to robustly defend even when on shaky ground, but I did find this from a google search (although it is from 2015).
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/ ... ied-access

Nationwide
The building society says its customers can withdraw up to £2,000 per account a day. “However, if they want to withdraw more than £500, it is best to pre-book the amount with the branch to ensure that it has the cash available. If customers want to withdraw more than £2,000, they would need to pre-book the money. This can be done the day before.” It adds that there is no set maximum that customers can withdraw, but if it is a large amount then it “would look to work with the customer to see if there was another solution for withdrawing their money (ie, Chaps).”


FWIW when I had a significant amount of money with Nationwide many years ago they did make it difficult to withdraw large amounts (thousands rather than hundreds), even as a cheque (which I then paid into another bank next door where my online current account was held, as I was worried about it being hacked in the early days such things).
I had to have photo ID, sit down for a ten minute grilling whilst they interrogated me, sign papers et al. I got a bit annoyed at the time, but with hindsight appreciate their thoroughness.


Cash, maybe. But online transfer, nope.

I often send thousands of pounds to builders etc with no issue.

When I moved house I found the N'wide CHAPS service impossible. But that wasn't an anti fraud measure, it's just really badly designed and I had to get it done in the branch in the end.

Most banks have an external device now, if you have old people whose banks have that you could take the device away and then help them when they do need to make payments?

Mel

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215452

Postby richfool » April 16th, 2019, 4:26 pm

Pipsmum wrote:It is incredibly easy to be conned. I've just (hopefully) saved my 87 year old dad from one of these clever tricksters in the nick of time.

He was told his computer had been hacked and that he was due some compensation from Microsoft as he had been hacked whilst under their warranty. The fraudster claimed to have paid him a large sum and provided proof (presumably having gained my dads bank details to do so). Luckily dad mentioned a 'deal' to me that night on the phone. He thought he was repaying an overpayment of the compensation but was being asked to pay it in via a moneygram to India.

I drove frantically to his house. As I arrived, his cursor was being very active all on its own on the screen. My fathers face kept appearing periodically so the thief could presumably see through the camera at him. Horrors!!!! I covered the camera hole with a business card and persuaded my father to let me phone his bank fraud section. Meanwhile because the phone was engaged, the conman was sending dreadful threatening messages via the screen saying answer him or he would turn off all our internet etc. The bank said unplug the computer, which we did, but it kept on going as it was a laptop. We managed to press the stop button just as the cursor was typing in moneygram in the search bar. Such terrifying stuff.

The fact he could actually see and watch my dad was beyond horrifying. I've always covered my camera up with a bit of tissue and sellotape with my children taking the tiddle for my paranoia. Justified now I think. My poor old dad could have had a heart attack there and then. I was shaking like a leaf. It was horrendously terrifying.

I've no idea what they could have gained access to, as they presumably have been able to rummage through his whole computer all night long. We've not dared turn that computer back on until we take it to a computer engineer to remove the spyware. Plus I've shut down all internet access to his bank.

Although banks can't be held responsible for peoples actions, I do think a few questions wouldn't go amiss upon large withdrawals, such as does anyone else know about the transaction. Maybe the PO should quiz anyone old that is making moneygram payments to foreign countries. Nobody being honest would mind.

Scary stuff. I am aware that when setting up a new payment from my bank account, the bank's system displays a code on the computer screen and then rings me to check that I am genuinely setting up the payment and requires me to input the code number, before it will proceed further.

I was thinking what I would do, if someone did have remote access to my computer. Off the top of my head, I think I would first turn off my router (wifi), and then set about turning the laptop off; if it wouldn't proceed, perhaps by using Ctrl+ Alt + Del. and task manager.. I already keep a sticker over my laptop's webcam.

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215471

Postby melonfool » April 16th, 2019, 5:42 pm

Turn off, or unplug, the router and/or the WiFi connection on the laptop.

Mel

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215486

Postby Alaric » April 16th, 2019, 6:46 pm

richfool wrote: Off the top of my head, I think I would first turn off my router (wifi), and then set about turning the laptop off; if it wouldn't proceed, perhaps by using Ctrl+ Alt + Del. and task manager.


As long as the battery is removable a laptop can be brought under control by disconnecting the lead to the mains adaptor and removing the battery. The battery management software can sometimes get a bit upset at such treatment.

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Re: 22year old daughter scammed of £9,750

#215722

Postby AF62 » April 17th, 2019, 6:22 pm

swill453 wrote:Note that today TSB launched a refund guarantee scheme for fraud victims. This goes beyond their legal obligations and would seem to cover the situation the OP's daughter found herself in (if it had been with TSB and after 14th April).

The new guarantee means fraud victims will be refunded for all types of fraud, including APP [authorised push payment] scams. Refunds for authorised transactions will be capped at £1 million.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/ ... -victims-/

TSB's executive chairman Richard Meddings said: "The vast majority of fraud claims across UK banking are from innocent victims of fraud, who have been targeted by criminals and organised gangs. However, all too often these customers must fight to be refunded and are not treated as victims of crime.

"We want to provide peace of mind to our customers, that's why we're proud to announce the TSB fraud refund guarantee. If a TSB customer innocently suffers a fraud loss on their account after being targeted by a criminal, we'll cover it."


Unfortunately although the motive is good I can see two poor outcomes for TSB from this.

Cynically I can foresee some dishonest TSB customers claiming to have been the subject of fraud when they have not been. Up to now TSB could just say "not our problem", and under the T&Cs refuse to make the refund and let the police deal with it. Now who is going to make the decision whether the customer was innocent in the fraud or not, and what will be the blow-back if that decision is wrong.

Also if I was a fraudster I would be directing all my resources at targeting TSB customers as I suspect a significant number will be less careful now that their money is not a risk.


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